OFF or RoF? Help the n00b!

[ConradB 0]

Yeah, just have to get used to the graphics setup, as there are some hoops to jump through on that one. I will suggest though, once you have all the graphics settings qued up, either write them down, or take a picture of your setting with printscreen, and print it out for future reference like driver updates and stuff like that.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Yeah, just have to get used to the graphics setup, as there are some hoops to jump through on that one. I will suggest though, once you have all the graphics settings qued up, either write them down, or take a picture of your setting with printscreen, and print it out for future reference like driver updates and stuff like that.

 

Good tip (wish I had last time)

[vyrago 0]

thanks for all the info. I plan on getting the Hat in the Ring expansion as well, so whats the install order for patches and expansions?

 

im asuming:

 

1. CFS 3

2. OFF BHaH

3. Hat in the Ring

4. patches

 

 

am I right?

 

 

on another note: I understand that CFS 3 is based on the microsoft flight simulator 'engine', are the physics comparable to that?

Edited January 22, 2010 by vyrago

[Von Paulus 8]

Almost.

1. CFS 3 (if you don't have the Ubisoft Version).

2. Run.

3. OFF BHaH

4. SuperPatch 1.32

5. MiniPatch 1.32g

6. HitR

7. Patch 1.47

[VonGuber 2]

A point: doesn't CFS3 need to be patched to v. 3.1 if it's not already?

[shredward 12]

Yep

[Bullethead 12]

Thanks so much for the help and advice guys! I have ordered my copy of CFS 3 and OFF DVD today!! I expect them sometime next week, and I cant wait!

 

Welcome aboard. You have been ascimilated. And new guy buys the drinks .

 

On delivery times for the OFF DVD, it depends. Avongate (the non-OBD-affiliated 3rd party shipper) seems somewhat irregular. Some get it quickly, some later. Avongate only promises like 14 business days, which means nearly 3 calendar weeks. To be fair, judging by what folks say and my own experience, Avongate usually beats its self-imposed deadline, but don't be surprised if they take nearly all of it, or even exceed it by a bit. Also, either Avongate or the actual carrier doesn't update the package tracking status very often. There are a number of threads here (most recently IIRC by Pink Panther) stating how their delivery was going to be late because according to the package tracker, it hadn't even left the warehouse yet. So things remainded for a while, and then one day the package arrived unexpectedly usually just shy of 14 business days.

 

I think I got my own copy in 10 calendar days. But YMMV.

[UnknownPilot 33]

Just found this thread. I don't have OFF, or RoF, or FE.... but I do have FS-WWI, and have been hooked on WWI kites ever since the old (Microprose?) Knights of the Sky.

 

One thing I feel bears mentioning... this IS an OFF forum, by default, one would expect all opinions to sway in favor of OFF as a result.

 

 

 

 

Just to add in again, people talk about CFS3 is if it's a dirty word.

 

With good reason. while you did make note of aftermarket improvments, the mere fact is the engine allows things that simply are enough to turn one off from it.

 

For example - let me start off by saying that I am primarily an IL2 simmer, have been since 2001 (with some time in LOMAC when it came out), but it's that engine that has hooked me the hardest. Now, with that said, when CFS3 came out, I got it because it had "The Wing" in it. This was prior to Oleg releasing a 229 for us, and also I don't always trust his spin on the numbers (afterall, he has all the best attritubes of soviet designs modeled, along with the all the problems and field issues of LW designs - like putting perfect concepts up against battle worn production craft), so I just had to have it.

 

Once I got it, I proceeded to see what kind of trouble I could get into, and I managed to put it into a full-on tumble - a 360 spin about both yaw and pitch axes.

 

...... I never lost altitute!

 

As I sat there tumbling, trying different things to stop it, noting worked, so I started pressing every button on the keyboard. Eventually I hit the waypoint warp, and it took me there, and left me flying normally.

 

This was at 1 thousang 5 hundred feet when I started the tumble. I spent a good 5 minutes or more trying to work my way out of it and then finding the warp button.

 

The only way that should be possible at ALL is if I was in orbit.

 

It's one thing for a plane's tables to be set up wrong, but the physics engine (over-arching FM) should not allow that.

 

Needless to say, that was the end of CFS3 for me.

 

 

I'll make this short and sweet. I have both sims and fly both regularly, although I must admit that BH&H gets a lot more stick time. The question is.....are you looking for a WWI aircraft sim (RoF), or a WWI air combat sim (OFF BH&H)?

 

CJ, how would you define those differences, IYO?

 

I feel that an inaccurate FM ruins EVERYTHING for a sim. However, at the same time, the most accurate FM in the world is useless if it's not surrounded by the right atmosphere. (ie, Crimson Skies is ruined by the arcade crap-model, despite the awesome story and atmosphere. But the IL2 Demo, devoid of on-line and of campaigns, would be useless as well - ya gotta have both (and IL2's offline is borderline at best, but it's still enough.... just) )

[ConradB 0]

Unknown pilot, OFF is a wonderful WWI campaign simulator. With everything set to realistic, you won't go out and rack up a bunch of kills every mission. You will be lucky to stay alive to fight another day. The offline campaign is the strongest point. If you try to fly these birds like a WWII or newer types of planes you will have a constant issue of wing shedding. And a great loss of altitude rather quickly as the rest of the plane breaks up on the way down, oh and no parachute to save yourself either. The folks who put this together were also invloved with the supermods for the old RB3D simulator. Even though the base of the game is the old CFS3, when you step into OFF you've pass through the looking glass Alice. It's a whole different world. The only thing missing is the smell of burning castor oil and engine exhaust, along with cordite when you fire your guns.

 

Oh yes, btw, like a mushroom on a tree, it grows on you. Especially when you start to get used to how the planes fly and fight.

Edited January 24, 2010 by ConradB

[Winston DoRight 3]

I, like many of the others who have replied here, cannot comment on RoF because I don't own it. But I do know how it works and that's why I refuse to support companies that have such intrusive and unreasonable DRM as RoF does. You have to be on their server while you play single player? Sorry not for me. With the way the price is dropping on that title I'm guessing they wont be in business forever. No servers and that title will then be collecting dust on your shelf or you'll be using it as your most expensive coaster.

 

I believe it's best to support software companies that use reasonable DRM/copy protection. Don't let this type of DRM become the norm by purchasing them.

[UnknownPilot 33]

Unknown pilot, OFF is a wonderful WWI campaign simulator. With everything set to realistic, you won't go out and rack up a bunch of kills every mission. You will be lucky to stay alive to fight another day. The offline campaign is the strongest point. If you try to fly these birds like a WWII or newer types of planes you will have a constant issue of wing shedding. And a great loss of altitude rather quickly as the rest of the plane breaks up on the way down, oh and no parachute to save yourself either. The folks who put this together were also invloved with the supermods for the old RB3D simulator. Even though the base of the game is the old CFS3, when you step into OFF you've pass through the looking glass Alice. It's a whole different world. The only thing missing is the smell of burning castor oil and engine exhaust, along with cordite when you fire your guns.

 

Oh yes, btw, like a mushroom on a tree, it grows on you. Especially when you start to get used to how the planes fly and fight.

 

 

Conrad, thanks for the response. :)

 

I can appreciate atmosphere. And single player. I have long lamented the death and dearth of single player in recent years, as I am an "old school" PC gamer. For reference, all my favorite titles are both from the 90s, and SP/offline only (the FMV era such as the Tex Murphy series, Gabriel Knight, Shivers 2, etc; and Wing Commander (my all time favorite, hands down), Privateer, Strike Commander, etc).

 

In fact, as I have said before here and elsewhere, I think that Strike Commander or Crimson Skies, done with accurate physics, and aircraft and systems modeling, with a plausible damage model, would be the most epic games of all time.

 

Ok, that said..... "atmosphere" is pure story. It's descriptive text and dialogue. And it's the imagination that that triggers. As a RPG GM (Game Master) and fan of fiction and one who enjoys writing, I am familiar with creating atmosphere and drawing the player/reader in (not claiming to be an expert, just familiar with it, and with doing it).

 

In short, I have found that atmosphere in both IL2, and FS-WWI - when running well made campaigns.

 

Granted, seeing things going on IN game helps (such as how SF2:V's Expansion Pack 2.0 shows ground damage over hte course of the campaign and has so much going on at once you get a feel of there actually being a war going on), but it's still secondary to a well written campaign story line and descriptive text.

 

 

 

However.... I digress. My real point is, it doesn't take much to accomplish that, both FS-WWI and IL2 do. So you need something more. All the atmosphere in the world won't make a lick of difference if the planes are not modeled correctly and if the physics engine is wonky.

 

So that is my real question.

 

For example, I love the TW stuff. I would really like to pick up First Eagles. But I can't...... I can't because TK doesn't model engine torque, or prop-wash, or P-factor. These things don't really matter for jets, but they are vital for props.

 

Many of these effects are, to varying degrees, present in FS-WWI. It's primitive (because the SDOE/OpenPlane engine is just old), but so far it's the best I can get to.

 

 

As for flying methods, don't worry about me. I have been very much interested in the aircraft and the pilots for a long time, and am aware of the issues they have. However, Energy tactics still work. And using them I was able to frustrate more than a few FS-WWI players online. hehe (for the record, that does not mean flying it like a WWII fighter, in the sense of putting it under the same loads and speeds, rather simply adapting the thinking and tactics to work with the slower, weaker kites)

 

 

 

What engine does RoF use, btw? I know FE uses the TW engine, OFF is CFS3, FS-WWI is OpenPlane, and there is (or was) a project for using Oleg's IL2 engine. That isn't RoF, is it?

[ConradB 0]

I can't say what RoF uses, as I stopped following it when I found out that offline play was going to be like a redheaded stepchild, so I lost interest in it. Eye candy only goes so far for me. I don't have a lot of time to commit to online flying, and this wireless internet setup just isn't as good as cable service. But since we're out in the boonies, it's the best I can get.

 

Tactics are the rudiments of aircombat. Learning how each plane operates, from basic to complex manouevers is part of the learning curve of any sim. I too favor the older simulators. My first was the original RB from Dynamix, and AOTP, and AOE. Microprose Pacific Airwar was another, as they didn't cover the whole war, and every theater, they were starting to detail out the planes and other objects in the game for the era. EAW, BoB, and a few others, ship and armour games.

 

I have had IL2 for some time, but the offline play sufferred so it was only an occassional flight here and there for me. The only jets I like are the Meteor, and the 262, so passed WWII, I don't bother. Just my preference is all. I am learning model building right now, and have been reading the elements of the game engine so I can plug in all the necessary elements for flight dynamics, but haven't got that far yet, so I don't know for sure every aspect that is covered by the game engine. Once I get done with the model I'm sure I'll have a better idea of everything it does and doesn't do, unless there are things that can be worked around.

[extremeone 13]

Here we go again!!!!!!!!!

 

With all respect to you, but do a search on simhq, riseofflightforum and here. There is also some discussion on the aerodromeforum, try Google, only to get the right info for RoF/OFF3.

 

 

But let me make one thing clear: do you own a Intel i7/i5 CPU and do you have a graphic-card with mem>512 starting from a GTX260, ATI4870 or better. No then forget RoF and get OFF3. To me it appears that only on a i7-CPU and GTX285 or HD58XX serie this game can be played at max settings. No SLI or CrossfireX mode or dual GPU card like the GTX295 or HD4870X2 are supported or are causing troubles in the game.

 

BTW For a free WW1 experience, why not getting the free WW1-FS from ArgonV or if you own IL2-1946 you can always wait for the free release from CanvasKnights, see the AAforum for more details.

 

Good luck!!!

 

and I do run RoF and OFF3!!!!!!

 

 

I'd agree with nearly all you wrote, but I have a GTX 295 and both gpu's run fine. No problems with the game. In fact the game runs smoothly and beautifully with everything maxed out.

[Flyby PC 23]

 

With good reason. while you did make note of aftermarket improvments, the mere fact is the engine allows things that simply are enough to turn one off from it.

 

 

You're missing the point.

 

The post I was responding to implied a newcomer to OFF felt taken advantage off having to buy CFS3 just so he could run OFF. As a newcomer, he may be unaware that OFF is bound to CFS3 through copyright issues, so the link has to remain. No CFS3, no OFF. Furthermore, my point wasn't to defend CFS3, but to let Vyrago know that the cost of CFS3 could also be off-set against the access to the further creditable add-ons besides OFF.

 

I expect everybody here knows all about CFS3 and it's deficiencies, it's been gone over ad-nauseum, but it doesn't change the fact that if there was no CFS3, there'd be no guys messing around with it and building the likes MAW, OFF, PTO, all the 1% aircraft, and all the other Gb of addons and effects which we can pick and choose to suit our individual tastes.

[UnknownPilot 33]

You're missing the point.

 

The post I was responding to implied a newcomer to OFF felt taken advantage off having to buy CFS3 just so he could run OFF. As a newcomer, he may be unaware that OFF is bound to CFS3 through copyright issues, so the link has to remain. No CFS3, no OFF. Furthermore, my point wasn't to defend CFS3, but to let Vyrago know that the cost of CFS3 could also be off-set against the access to the further creditable add-ons besides OFF.

 

I expect everybody here knows all about CFS3 and it's deficiencies, it's been gone over ad-nauseum, but it doesn't change the fact that if there was no CFS3, there'd be no guys messing around with it and building the likes MAW, OFF, PTO, all the 1% aircraft, and all the other Gb of addons and effects which we can pick and choose to suit our individual tastes.

 

 

Well.... don't take this the wrong way, as I'm merely making a philosophical point - while Adam and Jamie (the MythBusters) did prove that you CAN indeed polish a turd, in the end, you wind up with just a polished turd.

 

Again, I am NOT making accusations of OFF. I'm simply re-phrasing my personal concern about it. 1% and all those guys may do good work, but they are all inherently limited by the engine they work with, thus, my questions about this total conversion. There are some nifty things in CFS3, and so if this can do it "right", I would love to snap it up.

 

Does it handle torque? Does it handle propwash? Does it handle P-Factor? Adverse aileron yaw? Differential roll rates (with vs against torque)?

 

And that's even before we get into issues of absolute numbers and relative aircraft performance (ie, plane vs plane). One thing I like about FS-WWI is that, even though it lacks P-factor (ie, gyroscopic precession), it is tweakable so that when somethings off, you can fix it.

 

 

I hadn't heard of anything about copyright binding, that's interesting. But being a total conversion mod, those almost never manage to incorporate the original engine, so that CFS3 would be required on that alone I would assume, just like I had to get FS-SDOE in order to download and use FS-WWI.

[BirdDogICT 3]

Well.... don't take this the wrong way, as I'm merely making a philosophical point - while Adam and Jamie (the MythBusters) did prove that you CAN indeed polish a turd, in the end, you wind up with just a polished turd.

 

I enjoy contributing to this forum and learning from other members, and find that this is one of the best forums around for discussing WW1 aviation. I guess every new member here gets one free turd in the punchbowl. Looks like you've used yours.

 

I'd appreciate it if you would try to keep your comments civil, like everyone else here.

Edited January 25, 2010 by BirdDogICT

[Fortiesboy 3]

Well.... don't take this the wrong way, as I'm merely making a philosophical point - while Adam and Jamie (the MythBusters) did prove that you CAN indeed polish a turd, in the end, you wind up with just a polished turd.

 

Well, OFF is some turd then !! - Seriously, when you play OFF it is a long long way away, from CFS3 OOTB.

 

There are some nifty things in CFS3, and so if this can do it "right", I would love to snap it up.One thing I like about FS-WWI is that, even though it lacks P-factor (ie, gyroscopic precession), it is tweakable so that when somethings off, you can fix it.

 

This suggests to me that you don't fly OFF. So, I do think you are losing a lot on your conception of CFS3.

Let me tell you, that OFF is the best sim i have ever flown. However, I do criticize it more than most- It may interest you to know that I have changed the FMs of several of the aircraft ( for my own installation ) that most would say is unnecessary, but it can be done. The aircraft cfg file is tweakable, and many values can be changed, including Gyroscopic Precession etc.

In fact, a man of your talents who understands exactly what it means ( unlike myself ), would have a field day playing around with the values and, therefore, i suppose, changing the FM.

I have changed some values I DO understand and thus I have changed the FM to my liking.

However, these changed FMs can't be used in the campaign it seems, but they can in Quick flight, which is where i do most of my flying.

In short, it is a very versatile engine- and it looks nothing like CFS3. It is so believable .

One fact you may not be aware of ( you may keep telling yourself it isn't important- until you see it! ), but the realistic graphics are IMHO better than those screenshots of ROF that i have seen.

 

So, go on U.P. - Be a devil - buy yourself a polished turd!

[Dutch_P47M 9]

I'd agree with nearly all you wrote, but I have a GTX 295 and both gpu's run fine. No problems with the game. In fact the game runs smoothly and beautifully with everything maxed out.

 

Then you are lucky. but do a search on Neoqb, rise of flight forum, for the MSI GTX295 card you should even disable one GPU. One guy exchanged his GTX295 for a HD5870 card because of the problems he had [keep in mind RoF is still DirectX9, so no benefit from a DirectX11 OS & Vcard].

I would never take the risk, so my advice for RoF is still the single core GPU.

 

 

 

[UnknownPilot 33]

Take a breath, slow down, go back and re-read what was posted. There's a HUGE difference between using an example via analogy, and insulting something. But you chose to ignore that and invent an insult that wasn't present.

Edited January 25, 2010 by shredward

[GaryR 0]

 

 

Take a breath, slow down, go back and re-read what was posted. There's a HUGE difference between using an example via analogy, and insulting something. But you chose to ignore that and invent an insult that wasn't present.

 

 

 

Great, now we are "you people"..........

Edited January 25, 2010 by shredward

[shredward 12]

Shot across the bows!

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

There are some nifty things in CFS3, and so if this can do it "right", I would love to snap it up.

 

Does it handle torque? Does it handle propwash? Does it handle P-Factor? Adverse aileron yaw? Differential roll rates (with vs against torque)?

 

In OFF, I believe the answer to all of these questions is YES! Of course, you may not agree with the implementation of these factors for all of the planes (now up to 46 in HitR), but I do believe they are there.

[Wels 2]

Hello

having "flown" almost all WW1 sims that ever were - with the exception oF FS-WW1, but i recently downloaded it, because of the Zeppelin :) - i would say that there are some good sims around.

 

Ok, forget Dawn Patrol, Wings of honour, Red Baron 1 and Blue Max, along with some other minor ones:

 

1. FSX - very well-modelled WW1 planes separately available, but no combat action possible - and the flight models are not very "exact", apart for a payware add-on Dr.I and an Avro 504K.

2. RedBaron 3d

3. FS-WW1 based on SDOE (a bit like OFF on CFS3)

4. Over Flanders fields phase 3 with "Hat in the ring"

5. Rise of Flight.

6. The WW1 sim based on IL2 - don't know how it has been recently named, an older name was "Over Oleg's Fields", but they quickly changed that lol.

 

(I would say those are the ones that try to give a realistic feel about flying a plane.)

 

1. I played FSX and FS IX (2004) from time to time, mostly historical planes, e.g. the Albatros is a free beautiful download with different skins and moving valves. You can even remove the cowling and look at the engine - but as i said not a believable fligth model, no damage one and no combat.

 

2. RedBaron3d - must have played it for years, becoming more and more perfect with the Western Front patch, Full canvas jacket and the HASP superpatch - but it is finally lacking graphics, and engine management. Still good overall, after 14 years ...

 

3. Did not fly FS-WW1 yet, but will. Looks good and we had some conversation about modelling Zeppelins, and how they were built internally, for improving L30's damage model. As far as i heard even the failure of one cylinder of rotary engines is modelled - will see. I have played SDOE back then, and it was a good sim for the time.

 

4. I have played the free OFF "phases" 1 and 2, and then bought phase 3 "Between Heaven and Hell" - overall the best, still small glitches, but it is in constant development. Regarding exact moving frontlines, historically correct squadrons in the right clours and places, with the right planes, it is the best you can get.

The engine of CFS3 is being used for OFF, but they have managed to get into some hard-coded stuff and changed things we did not dare to dream about in phase one. There is also this air wrench tool to simulate all kinds of behaviour flight-model -wise. I do not know whether propwash is being modelled physically, but if not it feels damn right. As well torque and all kinds of stalls and spins are believable, certainly vary depending on plane type and altitude/condition of wind and weather etc..

There are some downloadable historical planes for CFS3, like the Blériot 11 and a Farman pusher, which can also be installed to OFF - but again the flight model is nothing to write home about, compared to the OFF planes created by the dev team. But it is nice for shows, and i am still waiting for a Rumpler, or Etrich "Taube" .

 

5. I bought and downloaded RoF a few days ago, but - may be related to my older Nvidia 8400 512 mb graphic card - it was not the sudden inspiration i had somehow expected. The clouds and trees look better in OFF, as do the frontlines. As well one has not the impression that there is a war going on, like in OFF, but the sim is certainly under development, so there's hope. I do not like the online requirement, and the one reason i finally bought it was the message that they will drop this in the in the next weeks, at least for mission flights - maybe later also for campaign, but that's not sure.

Flying the planes is great, but really: It is not so much better or more realistic than in OFF. You cannot switch the magnetoes on, or off, as in OFF, but the "rest" of the engine management is indeed nice, having to warm up the engine and care for overrevving is also nice, if a bit overdone - the planes in RoF are a bit too sensible in that respect - imho, that is.

The Albatros and SPAD are easy to fly in RoF, the SPAD seems almost more forgiving than in OFF. Since i only own it for a few days i cannot really judge it. The campaign is nothing to write home about, but let's see how it develops.

 

So what should you buy ? Certainly all of them, there are not so much good WW1 sims around - support them and the people who make them possible !

 

Thanks and greetings,

Catfish

Edited January 25, 2010 by Wels

[Dutch_P47M 9]

6. The WW1 sim based on IL2 - don't know how it has been recently named, an older name was "Over Oleg's Fields", but they quickly changed that lol. Still no release so I think they have faced a problem, that can not be solved!!!! All quit at the AAforum front   

 

1. I played FSX and FS IX (2004) from time to time, mostly historical planes, e.g. the Albatros is a free beautiful download with different skins and moving valves. You can even remove the cowling and look at the engine - but as i said not a believable fligth model, no damage one and no combat. There is a ad-on I do not know the name, but I saw it in the store to fly a few combat missions. try some search at some flysim game shops to figure this out.     

 

3. Did not fly FS-WW1 yet, but will. Looks good and we had some conversation about modelling Zeppelins, and how they were built internally, for improving L30's damage model. As far as i heard even the failure of one cylinder of rotary engines is modelled - will see. I have played SDOE back then, and it was a good sim for the time. Fly the Sikorky, but no campaign-mode here .   

 

4. I have played the free OFF "phases" 1 and 2, and then bought phase 3 "Between Heaven and Hell" - overall the best, still small glitches, but it is in constant development. Regarding exact moving frontlines, historically correct squadrons in the right clours and places, with the right planes, it is the best you can get.

The engine of CFS3 is being used for OFF, but they have managed to get into some hard-coded stuff and changed things we did not dare to dream about in phase one. There is also this air wrench tool to simulate all kinds of behaviour flight-model -wise. I do not know whether propwash is being modelled physically, but if not it feels damn right. As well torque and all kinds of stalls and spins are believable, certainly vary depending on plane type and altitude/condition of wind and weather etc..

There are some downloadable historical planes for CFS3, like the Blériot 11 and a Farman pusher, which can also be installed to OFF - but again the flight model is nothing to write home about, compared to the OFF planes created by the dev team. But it is nice for shows, and i am still waiting for a Rumpler, or Etrich "Taube"   me too, love the early date planes .

 

 

So what should you buy ? Certainly all of them, there are not so much good WW1 sims around - support them and the people who make them possible !

   Your 100% right inhere   

 

Thanks and greetings,

Catfish

 

BTW your Vcard is not the right card for RoF, it is now like running OFF3 on a VooDoo3 card.   

Edited January 25, 2010 by Dutch_P47M

[GaryR 0]

6. The WW1 sim based on IL2 - don't know how it has been recently named, an older name was "Over Oleg's Fields", but they quickly changed that lol. Still no release so I think they have faced a problem, that can not be solved!!!! All quit at the AAforum front

 

It's new name is Canvas Knights and the forum still seems pretty active, they are hinting toward a summer release.