Most efficient way of gaining altitude?

[Javito1986 14]

So I was just flying a patrol in which my squadron encountered enemy far above us. We were at roughly 7,000, I'd venture that the Germans were almost double that. The flight leader put his plane up and climbed, AI squadmates climbed, I tried to follow and stalled and fell and stalled and fell and repeat... was eventually able to gain altitude very very slowly but by the time I hit 10,000 the AI squadmates were already among the enemy recon planes tearing them up and I pretty much missed the whole show.

 

How do I prevent this from happening again? Any way I can keep up with them on the climb to altitude?

[Duce Lewis 3]

Hi Javito, welcome to OFF!

Help out with a little more info

-What plane were you flying?

- Manual or Auto Mixture Control?

- Were you trying to match or exceed their climb angle?

Edited January 25, 2010 by Duce Lewis

[Winston DoRight 3]

.........The flight leader put his plane up and climbed, AI squadmates climbed, I tried to follow and stalled and fell and stalled and fell and repeat.......

 

My first thought was the possibility that you were stalling and falling so many times that you were actually losing more altitude than you were gaining. Then I remembered the age old CFS3 fact that the weight of the pilot is not modeled in the AI aircraft. You'll not be able to climb as well as your AI wingmen or AI adversaries because of this. Your craft is heavier than the AI craft. There was a fix that someone developed for CFS3 and ETO where they added a non jettisonable pylon and some kind of weight onto it for the AI craft. It worked well and evened the weight advantage, but as far as I know no ones been able to do this on the OFF models.

 

This discrepancy is easily noticed in flight. As flightleader, once you find your wingmen have been seperated a bit from you and are behind you trying to catch up, fly as fast as you can, 100% throttle, level flight, optimum mixture. You'll soon see that they catch you rather quickly, but how is that possible if they have a craft with roughly the same speed/power? It's just a buggy thing, a holdover from CFS3. Maybe in some future phase for OFF, the devs might find this is something worth looking into.

 

In the meantime, your best bet is leading your flights yourself. Then you can climb to whatever higher altitude you feel necessary to avoid being at such a large altitude disadvantage.

[catch 81]

It's just a buggy thing, a holdover from CFS3. Maybe in some future phase for OFF, the devs might find this is something worth looking into.

 

In the meantime, your best bet is leading your flights yourself. Then you can climb to whatever higher altitude you feel necessary to avoid being at such a large altitude disadvantage.

 

I look forward to the day when the devs implement a fix for the superior AI performance and the issues with campaign novice mode (ie when not leading). Then it would be perfect. Well ..... once they roll out that Parasol for a spot of artillery ranging and photo-recon opportunities . I'm getting excited just thinking about it

[Javito1986 14]

Righto chaps I've taken to leading flights myself. Works out a lot better this way! Thanks for the tips!

[Flyby PC 23]

To actually answer your question, you climb best by trading speed for lift, but at height I actually pay less attention to my climb rate, and focus on keeping my speed up. So long as your rate of climb is more or less positive, you're climbing.

 

Keep your turns to a minimum to avoid losing energy. You're already slower and more vulnerable to attack when climbing, so you want to avoid dissipating even more energy by turning when or if you don't have to. You need to watch all around for bandits, - but turn your head not your aircraft. (TrackIR helps a lot here). If you see any trouble coming, abort your climb & get your speed up - but only dive if it's important. If the bandit loses interest in you, resume your climb.

 

You can also climb 'steps' for want of a better explanation. Trade some speed to climb more steeply for a few seconds, level off for a minute or so to recover some speed, (and use the time to adjust or 'lean out' your fuel mixture to suit your altitude), then repeat the process. - Think of an unifit person climbing stairs, if they run flat out, they run out of breath and have to stop, when they eventually get to the top they collapse in a heap. But if they take it easy and pause regularly to catch their breath, they get to the top a bit faster, but more importantly, they're in a fit and ready state to do something once they get there.

 

This all works for me, but as stated already, you'll still find it difficult to match the AI.

[Wels 2]

Hello,

try to keep up the speed, even if you do not lift your nose much over the horizon, at some more or less level flight you will climb faster while performing a seemingly horizontal flight.

It certainly depends on the plane, and altitude. As well lean the mixture at higher altitudes, but do not forget to enrich it again when descending if you leaned it too much at very high altitudes . In OFF you usually need to stay 5-7 clicks above the "mixture cut-off" condition, to keep the engine revolutions at an optimum at all altititudes - which is certainly not correct compared to the real thing.

 

Now wouldn't it be a good thing if the OFF team modelled the AI planes in a way they would also model the weight of the pilot ?

Maybe it is not done because it would make their behaviour close to the ground worse ?

 

Currently the AI planes have some notable advantages, be it just flying away or rising faster. As well the structural damage being imposed by vertical dives still does not damage them. I recently saw a N11 or 17 dive vertically at me, without showing any damage. Trying out an N17 myself i was also able to vertically dive without shearing off my wing.

 

Greetings,

Catfish

[Javito1986 14]

Hello,

try to keep up the speed, even if you do not lift your nose much over the horizon, at some more or less level flight you will climb faster while performing a seemingly horizontal flight.

It certainly depends on the plane, and altitude. As well lean the mixture at higher altitudes, but do not forget to enrich it again when descending if you leaned it too much at very high altitudes . In OFF you usually need to stay 5-7 clicks above the "mixture cut-off" condition, to keep the engine revolutions at an optimum at all altititudes - which is certainly not correct compared to the real thing.

 

Now wouldn't it be a good thing if the OFF team modelled the AI planes in a way they would also model the weight of the pilot ?

Maybe it is not done because it would make their behaviour close to the ground worse ?

 

Currently the AI planes have some notable advantages, be it just flying away or rising faster. As well the structural damage being imposed by vertical dives still does not damage them. I recently saw a N11 or 17 dive vertically at me, without showing any damage. Trying out an N17 myself i was also able to vertically dive without shearing off my wing.

 

Greetings,

Catfish

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm... is there a way to compensate in the options for the AI having these advantages? Should I make it less aggressive or something?

 

Also, I'm sure this is obvious to most but this is still only my second day with OFF... where could I find a guide on how to properly use mixture? Currently I have it set to auto but something tells me I'll be able to fly better if I do it manually. I switched over to manual rudder after configuring the rudder pedals and my flying has improved immeasurably since!

[Olham 164]

Don't try to climb too steep.

These aircraft have little power mostly. You need speed not to stall, and to keep up with your squad.

So you must climb more patiently, in an angle of only 10 - 15 degrees.

You will reach them after some time, be patient.

 

Another good method is what I call the "staircase climb".

You climb in steps like a drawn stair. Up a bit in about 25°, and then horizontal for a longer bit to

re-gain speed enough for the next step. The vertical part not long, just until you loose energy.

The horizontal bit long enough to get back to full speed.

With that method, you can catch up with craft, that have a better climb but lesser speed than yours.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Olham

[Creaghorn 10]

 

Another good method is what I call the "staircase climb".

You climb in steps like a drawn stair. Up a bit in about 25°, and then horizontal for a longer bit to

re-gain speed enough for the next step. The vertical part not long, just until you loose energy.

The horizontal bit long enough to get back to full speed.

With that method, you can catch up with craft, that have a better climb but lesser speed than yours.

 

 

that's the way i do it when hostile aircraft are above me and i try to catch them. i go into a short dive to catch momentum and pull vertically hard to the moment i almost hang on the prop and then level out again and repeat it, though the higher you are the more difficult it is.

this method is also mentioned in literature.

MvR wrote that this manouver is a kind of invitation to the enemies to make them fight and not run away.

mccudden wrote about seeing the albdII performing this manouver and the comical sight reminds him of a begging dog.

so maybe this manouver was more commong among germans.

[Flyby PC 23]

Hmm... is there a way to compensate in the options for the AI having these advantages? Should I make it less aggressive or something?

 

Also, I'm sure this is obvious to most but this is still only my second day with OFF... where could I find a guide on how to properly use mixture? Currently I have it set to auto but something tells me I'll be able to fly better if I do it manually. I switched over to manual rudder after configuring the rudder pedals and my flying has improved immeasurably since!

 

 

Press Ctrl - to lean out your mixture. The way to do it is press ctrl, then tap out the - symbol until your engine begins to stutter and fail. Once this happens, give it one or two clicks of + (thats ctrl +) until your engine picks up again. That's you properly 'leaned out' for that altitude. Fly higher or lower, and repeat the process to keep you mixture at its optimum.

 

Manual mixture gives you an edge over auto in my opinion.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Flyby PC

[Dutch_P47M 9]

Then I remembered the age old CFS3 fact that the weight of the pilot is not modeled in the AI aircraft. You'll not be able to climb as well as your AI wingmen or AI adversaries because of this. Your craft is heavier than the AI craft. There was a fix that someone developed for CFS3 and ETO where they added a non jettisonable pylon and some kind of weight onto it for the AI craft. It worked well and evened the weight advantage, but as far as I know no ones been able to do this on the OFF models.

 

Never know this, but as a wingman I can tell you, you are right inhere!!!!

 

Uncleal yes that is indeed one of the reason I prefer FF, you will have a better feeling and not only in climbing

[Creaghorn 10]

sorry for hijacking, but as we talk about FF i have a question.

 

some people here refuse to use FF because it's vibrating all the time during flight. something what a real flightstick doesn't do.

i have a saitek evo force and mine doesn't vibrate at all during flight. only when on the runway or shooting it does. in the air it does not vibrate at all but has pressure on the stick, depending what's happening. buffeting, stalling, pushes the stick into appropriate directions with appropriate strength, and i have to hold it with counterpressure. sometimes in violent turns or breaking wings or something, the sudden strength almost forces it out of my hand and that seems realistic for me.

i thought it is made this way on purpose with every ff stick to be like that, but obviously on some sticks it only vibrates or not without other nonvibrating strenghts.

 

i remember when trying p2 with a normal ff gamepad it was vibrating all the time during flight. i thought that was fixed in BHAH, or ist it only a saitek strengh that it handles the force realistically?

 

 

[Creaghorn 10]

I also use the EVO Cyclone FFB ( no longer offered by-the-way). It's easy to say it's the weak pulse in OFF, however I've yet to experience the condition in CFS3, FSX, and FS9. Actually I never experienced such a problem with my Sidewinder II, and that one could rip your arm off with it's pulse, that was prior to FSX.

 

No the only explination I can come up with is those pilots trying to make-do with a Rumble Pad, or a chinese knock-off

 

Actually this is the first I've heard of such a problem

 

 

 

i'm not sure if your post is the answer to my post uncleal . actually there is no problem with my stick but it's how it's supposed to be . ff is very strong (at least on xp. on win7 with vista drivers very weak). i was just asking if other ff sticks are only vibrating and that's the reason it feels unrealistic during flight. because with my stick vibration is only when rolling on the ground or firing, but otherwise there is no vibration but response of other very smart made forces, strength depending on what's happening.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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uncleal wrote:

And since you can't restart alone, you'll die.

 

Actually, in RL, provided they had some alt to work with a WWI pilot could restart his engine by going into a shallow dive allowing the prop to windmill and serving the same purpose as a mechanic pulling it 'round. I have read numeorus times in various flyer's personal accounts of them having to learn to do this in the flight schools before even getting to the front. That being said, I agree with you uncleal...don't kill your engine due to improper fuel/air mixture in the first place. And it does always seem to happen at the worst possible time.

 

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[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Sorry uncleal, but I must disagree. The practice of cutting off the engine in flight and restarting it was taught at Avord and other flying schools even before the outbreak of the War and all the way through it. The "volplane" was a basic maneuver, mentioned in nearly every flight manual of the day, and one that had to be learned by the cadet in ordered to be breveted. You took your plane up to several thousand feet, cut the engine, went into a long, shallow dive, and then restarted it after several minutes of gliding. And yes, if it were done improperly with the air/fuel mixture incorrectly set you could catch fire. But it was none-the-less taught to the student pilots and considered a necessary part of their flying repertoire.

 

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[RAF_Louvert 101]

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I pulled out my 1918 copy of Flt. Commander W.G. McMinnies "Practical Flying: Complete Course of Flying Instructions" and did a bit of checking and found that the WWI pilot was being taught to cut his engine and restart it quite often during flight. Just this short excerpt from the Commander's recap at the end of the book illustrates the point, (and it is mentioned repeatedly throughout the 200+ pages of this text):

 

 

 

Stage 9 Advanced Flying

 

1.—Every time you go up solo try and do something you have never done before, i.e., go up higher, or for a longer flight, or in worse weather, or practise aerobatics.

 

2.—First perfect yourself in landing on a mark with engine cut off.

 

3.—For this, "S" turns, spirals and vertical banks with and without engine must be practised.

 

4.—Practise climbing turns and stalling turns. The latter are performed by pulling the machine up on its nose and then banking and ruddering in the desired direction. The engine can be cut off during the manoeuvre. Modifications of this manoeuvre with the engine on result in cartwheels and Immelman turns in which the machine does an about turn.

 

5.—In all aerobatics avoid too sudden changes of direction of the machine, i.e., pull the machine out of a dive gently and gradually.

 

6.—To zoom, fly level at full speed, and then pull the stick back. At the top of the zoom ease the stick forward.

 

7.—A hoiked turn is a curving zoom, but you should know your machine, and practise this at 1000 ft.

 

8.—To loop, put the nose down to 85 m.p.h., and pull the stick straight back into your chest. When over, cut out the engine, and pull the machine out of the dive gently. The latter part of the pull back is quicker than the first in starting the loop.

 

9.—To spin, cut out the engine, and stall the machine level with the nose on the horizon. Kick on rudder, and pull the stick right back into the chest. To come out, centre the rudder gently, and ease the stick forward.

 

10.—To roll, get up speed either with or without engine, kick on rudder, and pull the stick right back.

 

11.—To turn very quickly, switch off momentarily, kick on rudder without any bank, which will pull the machine up and twist its nose round in the desired direction. She will get into a spin if not righted immediately. Then switch on.

 

12.—To sideslip or partially glide sideways, switch off, put on bank in one direction and rudder in the other. The machine will glide sideways in the direction in which the stick is held.

 

13.—The falling leaf descent is done with the engine off, and the stick held back in the pilot's chest. After she stalls, she can be allowed to gain speed, and then stalled again. If the engine stops, dive to restart it.

 

14.—Diving is best done with the engine off. Put the stick forward, and hold it there while the speed increases. Pull out of a vertical dive very gradually.

 

15.—Try all advanced flying at a height of 2000 ft. or 3000 ft.

 

16.—Practise sham flights and aerobatics with other pupils if your instructor thinks you are good enough. Practise approaching machines unseen, and always take note of the machines in the air about you.

 

It would appear that shutting off and restarting the engine was standard operating procedure for our RL counterparts in WWI.

 

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[Flyby PC 23]

In a parallel world, when you parachute operationally as a paratrooper, you jump from around 700 or 800ft. If your chute malfunctions, you have seven seconds before you pile in. That's seven seconds to first realise you have a malfunction, get rid of your dysfunctional canopy (which might interfere with your reserve chute's deployment), pull your reserve chute, and force it away from you so the air can catch it and open it so it deploys in time to slow your decent. Seems a lot to do in 7 seconds, but as the instructors told us, you WILL be highly motivated to follow these procedures to their completion.

 

Drill's are there for every emergency, and being service personnel, I expect these pilots would start their drill as second nature. After all, some chance is better than none. Even a young pilot will follow the drill because he won't know what else to do, but a seasoned pilot would follow the drill because he'd have faith it might work.

 

Bearing in mind, engines were still in early development, and your engine is so often between you and the enemy who's shooting at you, I'd hazard a guess the drill for engine failure would be almost routine.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Very true Flyby, I know I too practiced drills repeatedly in the USAF for the "just in case" scenario. However, cutting the engine during flight in the WWI kites as an integral part of a maneuver seems to have been common practice rather than a rare and unexpected occurance. I spent some more time last night flipping through numerous old volumes and found mention of it everywhere. Charles Biddle talks about doing "vrilles", and the first step is to cut off the engine. E.M. Roberts recalls a time where he forgot to shut off fuel during a long glide and loaded up the cylinders with so much raw fuel and oil that he fouled out his plugs and couldn't restart the engine. A.R. Kingsford also mentions flipping the switch on and off during flight. And on and on. So, it is becoming evident to me that it was not the ultimate sin to shut off the engine in flight but rather a normal part of handling these old birds. Also, it looks as if the SOP was to flip off the mags first and then the fuel, unless you were blipping the engine off for only a few seconds, then you would leave the fuel on.

 

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[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Alright, so I went into my joystick profile and programmed a hot button that allows me to blip the magnetos on and off in order to simulate the action as mentioned repeatedly in my recent readings on this subject. I then went in and tried a few of the maneuvers as described in McMinnies instructions, both with engine on and off, and it does make a significant difference. For instance, where he describes the following: "To turn very quickly, switch off momentarily, kick on rudder without any bank, which will pull the machine up and twist its nose round in the desired direction. She will get into a spin if not righted immediately. Then switch on". If you do this you will come around much quicker with the engine blipped off for a moment. At least this is what I've discoverd so far flying my Tripehound. I will be testing other planes and maneuvers to see if it has similar effects.

 

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[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Roger that, uncleal. I know others have been using a dedicated kill switch on their JS for quite some time. I myself have had the throttle blip switch set up since I began flying BHaH so I can toggle between 10% and 100% throttle. However, I discovered this AM that with "shift-M" and "ctrl-M" also toggled as a mag blip that I have almost instantaneous control of engine power, (a far quicker response than throttle blipping gives). And this small change makes a very noticable difference in certain maneuvers. Live and learn.

 

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