What is controlling the AI?

[DukeIronHand 8]

OFF's biggest failing, and perhaps its only one IMHO, is the AI in dogfights.

For a simulation where "immersion" and "being there" are critical this is huge.

 

The number of old-time players here who state they rarely make it past 3 missions is astounding. Yes, I realize that real life was tough on the Western Front but, good lord, if OFF was running history the air war would have been over in a week!

 

The high AI and player loss rates, the players tally per mission, etc are constantly being worked on by DM tweaks, gun settings (See "Gun Setting" thread), or removing the players tracers, etc in a valiant attempt to bring about some "historical" results for the AI and player.

 

But as long as the AI continues to fly and fight to the death these things are just making the fight last longer and not fixing the problem.

 

I think that some "survival sense", or whatever you wish to call it, must (must!) be built into the AI.

 

Are the AI routines strictly controlled by the CFS3.exe?

[Hellshade 110]

OFF's biggest failing, and perhaps its only one IMHO, is the AI in dogfights.

For a simulation where "immersion" and "being there" are critical this is huge.

 

The number of old-time players here who state they rarely make it past 3 missions is astounding. Yes, I realize that real life was tough on the Western Front but, good lord, if OFF was running history the air war would have been over in a week!

 

The high AI and player loss rates, the players tally per mission, etc are constantly being worked on by DM tweaks, gun settings (See "Gun Setting" thread), or removing the players tracers, etc in a valiant attempt to bring about some "historical" results for the AI and player.

 

But as long as the AI continues to fly and fight to the death these things are just making the fight last longer and not fixing the problem.

 

I think that some "survival sense", or whatever you wish to call it, must (must!) be built into the AI.

 

Are the AI routines strictly controlled by the CFS3.exe?

 

The challenge (among other things is that if the AI decides to turn and flee, as it sometimes does, it makes for an easy target for the player. All that does is raise the players kill tally higher while still resulting in a fight to the death. Given the work that's been put on display for the upcoming P4, I would be highly suprised if the AI didn't get some kind of overhaul as well. I could be wrong, but judging by the screenshots they seem pretty serious about making things as accurate as possible. That may well carry over to the AI side of things as well.

[CaptSopwith 23]

The challenge (among other things is that if the AI decides to turn and flee, as it sometimes does, it makes for an easy target for the player. All that does is raise the players kill tally higher while still resulting in a fight to the death. Given the work that's been put on display for the upcoming P4, I would be highly suprised if the AI didn't get some kind of overhaul as well. I could be wrong, but judging by the screenshots they seem pretty serious about making things as accurate as possible. That may well carry over to the AI side of things as well.

 

I agree with Hellshade - my hunch is that the AI will receive some major work before P4 comes out. I also agree that these large scale fight to the death scenarios aren't terribly realistic. But then again, I can't remember a single flight sim that replicated a survival instinct very well either. The upside to the AI in OFF is that, from a challenge standpoint to the player, it can be brutal. Now, this comes with a large caveat. If you select the less aggressive setting, the AI tends to be a bit timid - performing some gentle turns, typically trying to stay out of the fight by putting distance between you and them, and if you have a more powerful plane, a Fokker D7 for example, you can down them consistently. Switch it to aggressive, however, and life gets much more difficult. I've had my motor shot out by an enemy making a single head on pass across my nose. You have to consistently watch your 6 o'clock and I typically find that I'm the one deciding to run from a fight, or not get into one in the first place, if I want to survive. Normally, I fly with the Historical setting checked and I tend to find a nice balance of easy meat and Red Baron's in the sky - as close to reality as I think we can get at the moment.

 

On the bright side, the AI is worlds better than what I remember dealing with during my years playing Red Baron 3D - which before OFF was really all we had, even years after its release. There too, modders were essential to making the game better. But oftentimes, a new Flight Model would come out and immediately you would see posts on the boards about porpoising Fokker EIII's that would do nothing but climb vertically until they stalled, fell like rocks, and then repeat until they crashed. Or Sopwith Camels that flew fine until they turned and then you'd see an entire flight of them go falling from the sky as if Newton pulled the laws of physics right out from under them. The most frustrating thing for the FM builders was that these events were rarely replicable - it seemed to vary from system to system and often times these glitches were never completely ironed out. I've never seen the AI do something completely boneheaded in OFF.

 

So are they completely human? No - a lot of times it's like fighting the Terminator. But at least it is a challenge. Switch your gun settings to the hardest possible, click on aggressive AI, put yourself in something less than perfect (like an under-armed Nieuport or even a DH2) and see how large of a tally you rack up.

 

I do agree though - the AI needs some help to learn the fine art of disengaging.

Edited February 13, 2011 by _CaptSopwith

[DukeIronHand 8]

So what is it you're saying "It's too tough" or OFF lacks ARCADE mode. Face the facts . . this is a young man's game. Speaking for myself, while I do use FFB, after 60 years of breathing, I know that a 14% hit percentage can't get it done.

 

I marvel at some of the questions asked, like "Can I put five claims, on the same form"?

 

World War One in the Air featured a bunch of 27 year old Majors, as well as a lots of dead kids

 

You gonna tell me you have same reactions you did when you were 23 . . . .You should go on display

 

Well thanks uncleal, your insight is astounding and helpful as always!

Edited February 13, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[DukeIronHand 8]

Well Hellshade and CaptSopwith, you are both correct that a fleeing AI would presumably be "easy meat" for the player if he has a higher performing plane or the AI A/C is damaged. But again I would presume that if the AI is attempting to flee because of damage or a bad situation it would be "easy meat" in "real life" (oh, I hate those words in sim forums) also.

 

And I will bow to your probably superior stick time Hellshade and say that I have never seen an AI plane flying and thought to myself "He is running away" though situational awareness may be a factor here. Perhaps because of simulation limitations the human player is too aware (or perhaps not enough depending on your game settings) of what is going on around him...especially if you are using the Tac screen.

 

And we also don't have oil on our goggles, aren't cold, just saw our best friend burn all the way down, afraid of getting lost, rough engine, etc.

 

Ultimately, we are not fearing death or pain for our stupidity or misplaced aggression.

Clearly though the AI shares that lack of fear!

 

But yes, some AI tweaking would be nice for P4 which is the real reason for this post. P3 is set in stone I am afraid.

 

Edit: Is the AI routine strictly controlled by the CFS3.exe? Can this .exe be modified? Both technically and/or legally?

Edited February 13, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[Hellshade 110]

Another fair point to be made is that if you head over to any other combat flight sim of any era...I don't think I've ever seen a forum topic about trying to attain realistic kill / survivability ratios at all. Sure there's talk of improving the AI, but scarely a word about getting historically accurate kill ratios or pilot lifespans. So while I am always deeply grateful to anyone who comes up with ideas to improve upon this, the reality is we are treading ground seldom, if ever, walked on before in a commercial flight sim. For lack of a better term, it's the "quest for the Holy Grail".

 

Plus, I might add that WWI flight sims have a challenge with the AI that is arguably uniquely difficult to address. The planes are woefully underpowered, which means that once the fight gets down low to the ground, the AI really can't climb to escape with any hope of success. In Wings of Prey (WWII flight sim), you can be hugging the trees one minute and seconds later zoom high into the sky...and so can the AI. So it adds a lot of flexibility on the programmers part on how to keep the AI challenging. Being down low isn't really a limitation for the AIs fighting skills. In any WWI flight sim, once you are down to tree top level, the AI basically has few choices.

 

1. Porpoise endlessly (OFF was originally this way but fixed it)

2. Change to turn fighting tactics which isn't bad at all for turn fighters - but become less aggressive because they are aware of the ground and actively avoid killing themselves. Energy fighters are more limited here. (OFF currently uses this)

3. Keep flying with the same aggressive behavior in order to maintain a tough fighting challenge for the player but the results are a number of AI planes simply slamming into the ground / buildings / trees (which is how another WWI flight sim which shall not be name handles it). I've witnessed this happening enough times to say subjectively that this is how the AI for one of the other WWI sims appears to handle it. I had two crash into the ground within 5 seconds of each other once.

 

None of them are marvously good choices but once a 110hp engined plane is down to 200 feet and not at the bottom of a steep dive, it simply doesn't have the energy to zoom back up high again and continue the fight on it's own best terms.

 

I guess one possibility would be that when the AI decides to escape it's programmed NOT to fly straight and level directly back to base. It should zig zag, jink, bob and weave every way possible to keep the player and other AI planes from getting an easy shot off on it's 6. But any such major changes to the AI will have to wait until P4. Modders can change gun damage, plane damage models and stuff like that, but I think it'll require the Devs to tinker more with the AI.

 

Having said all of that, I'm always glad when people think of ways to improve OFF. It's a magnificent peice of work but that doesn't stop our rabid user base from thinking of ways to keep making it better.

 

Oh and one last thought. Even if the Devs of any flight sim could program their AI planes to fly 100% realistically, they still can't stop people like myself from flying unrealistically aggressive..because I don't fear death so I'm willing to make strafing passes mere inches from the EA which boosts my gun accuracy far higher than would likely ever be possible in real life. I can regularly get accuracy between 50% - 61% by crawling into the cockpit of the guy I'm shooting at, but the reality is that that is suicidal behavior on my part as I only have to misjudge speed and distance once to end my career. Not to mention as you said, we as players aren't fighting in freezing temps, dealing with G forces on our bodies, rain in our faces, etc. There will always be room for improvements but there are also some limitations far beyond the Devs control. With any $20 to $50 software title, we as consumers must expect there will be limitations and compromises made in the name of technology and Developer budget schedules, not to mention stuff simply beyond their control.

 

Hellshade

Edited February 13, 2011 by Hellshade

[77Scout 3]

OFF's biggest failing, and perhaps its only one IMHO, is the AI in dogfights.

I think that some "survival sense", or whatever you wish to call it, must (must!) be built into the AI.

 

I completely agree on the great desireability of some 'survival sense'. Without it, combat outcomes are too deadly as you said. Without it, it will also be hard to have stats and survival of your AI sqaudmates eventually reflecting the outcome of missions (rather than randomly generated as they are now) because they will all die within a few flights. As stated above, survival-sense would be the 'holy grail' of flight sims. The OFF team has worked miracles, but I worry this this may simply be too much to wish for.

 

Are the AI routines strictly controlled by the CFS3.exe?

 

Just my guess, but I expect the AI 'code' is almost certainly contained within the CSF3.exec and only the input parameters can be fiddled with by the OFF team. Unless the code is already in there and can somehow be activated, it would seem unlikely to me that 'survival sense' can be added in. I hope I am wrong (I usually am, heh heh).

[DukeIronHand 8]

I hope I am wrong (I usually am, heh heh).

 

I hope you are too!

 

And, objectively Hellshade, you may be correct in the comparison to other sims. I sometimes forget there are other WW1 sims!

In every sim there are complaints about the AI and perhaps I need to remember we are not recreating the life of a real live WW1 pilot (though we may try mightily) and that ultimately its is a "simulation of WW1 air combat" not real life. To expect "real life" results with all the possible variables (planned or unplanned, programmed or not) inherent in a simulation that must be taken into account may not be possible. I may be expecting too much out of the poor old CFS3 engine...or any game engine for that matter.

 

Still, for immersion and playability reasons, some tweaks would be nice though!

Hopefully the devs have some tricks up their sleeve for P4.

Edited February 13, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[+Winder 32]

Hi Guys,

 

I cant say what when and how but yes AI is very much on the radar.....

 

I cannot think of any aspect of P3 that is not being 'looked at'

 

WM

[Hellshade 110]

Hi Guys,

 

I cant say what when and how but yes AI is very much on the radar.....

 

I cannot think of any aspect of P3 that is not being 'looked at'

 

WM

 

While I should be amazed, anymore it's just par for the course in how you guys do things. To the best of your ability at all times. Thanks for that. Sorry that your user base (myself included) sometimes must sound a bit spoiled. We've just come to expect only the best because that's all you guys seem to deliver. You are a victim of your own successes.

 

Hellshade

[DukeIronHand 8]

...sometimes must sound a bit spoiled.

Hellshade

 

Just a bit!?! Well I am relieved then. I thought I was spoiled a whole lot by the excellent work of the devs!

 

Thanks Winder. You and the rest of the team are the best. Even the user base is pleasant to be around.

 

Does this make me a "fanboi" or a "OFF slappy"? Not sure which I prefer...

[Hasse Wind 46]

The AI is always the hardest part of any game (or sim) to get right. What comes easily and naturally for us humans can be almost impossible to simulate when programming an AI. It took ages to develop smart AI's for relatively simple games such as chess, which have clearly defined rules and a limited number of things you can do every turn. But then we have really complex games, like strategy or flight simulators, that require so much more from the AI, making it difficult to program well. Calculating moves in chess is easier for any computer to do than trying to make the AI 'see' an air combat situation like a human being and react accordingly. Until we get a true AI that is conscious of itself and can think like a human we'll just have to live with the limitations in programming (maybe they are ready to activate Skynet soon - that would give a new meaning to the Terminator pilots in OFF).

 

What we currently have in OFF is already better than in the majority of sims, and knowing how dedicated the devs are, I won't be surprised if P4 will have a greatly improved AI. I'm not expecting miracles, but it would be nice to see an AI that sometimes decides to avoid combat, even break off and fly away, and not go chasing after enemies deep behind enemy lines, ignoring Archie and getting killed by it.

[Hellshade 110]

I cant say what when and how but yes AI is very much on the radar.....

 

WM

 

This isn't "official", but I have it on good authority that Olham isn't really on "vacation". The Devs have kidnapped him, jacked him into the OFF matrix and now all of the Huns will be flying using his live brainwave impulses! They will be dangerous opponents indeed. Don't feel bad for Olham, it's what he really wanted anyways. When Widowmaker disappears next, we'll know they've started work on the Allied side of things. These guys are goooood.

 

Hellshade

[CaptSopwith 23]

This isn't "official", but I have it on good authority that Olham isn't really on "vacation". The Devs have kidnapped him, jacked him into the OFF matrix and now all of the Huns will be flying using his live brainwave impulses! They will be dangerous opponents indeed. Don't feel bad for Olham, it's what he really wanted anyways. When Widowmaker disappears next, we'll know they've started work on the Allied side of things. These guys are goooood.

 

Hellshade

 

If Widow drops next the RFC will be reborn - and all of them will be flying Snipes!

 

Crazy as that sounds - it just might all be true...

[Javito1986 14]

This isn't "official", but I have it on good authority that Olham isn't really on "vacation". The Devs have kidnapped him, jacked him into the OFF matrix and now all of the Huns will be flying using his live brainwave impulses! They will be dangerous opponents indeed. Don't feel bad for Olham, it's what he really wanted anyways. When Widowmaker disappears next, we'll know they've started work on the Allied side of things. These guys are goooood.

 

Hellshade

 

 

 

 

 

 

It all makes sense now! Y'know, to be totally honest the thought occurred to me back when Olham first mentioned his mother's knee, but I suppressed it. The doctor advised me about that sort of talk after that bloody satellite wouldn't stop beaming me messages in summer '06.

[Lewie 7]

I think there's quite a few conflicting realities about the real deal vs. sims, especially in the WWI arena. Real life had rather scattered and dispersed flights at many different altitudes. Sims tend to concentrate action through the unrealism of tracking your enemy from a distance, that tends to be greater than human capable line of sight, which is really hard to duplicate in a flat screen monitor, no matter what the resolution. Most enemy engagements were first sighted by eye. Try flying with the aids turned off more? Bad weather also made sighting an enemy even harder, and look at all the bad weather OFF has you flying in.

 

I also think that sims have a tendency to generate missions with more activity, closer together, than what was historically accurate.

 

Another thing to consider is that realistically the Germans were really loathe to go much farther West than the Entente's front lines unless expressly tasked with ground support or aggressive Allied back line suppression of ground targets in the heat of a big offensive. During the Circus years they were more than happy to patrol as far West as just in front of the back areas of their front lines knowing that Uncle Boom's 'Long Shadow' would be cast far into their own airspace. I read a lot of reports in this forum that have Jasta's crossing far over the front, especially glaring is the Fokker Eindekker squads attacking Allied planes over the Allied front which was verboten, considering the Fokker's interrupter gears secrecy.

 

I think a lot of other facts have been previously discussed, it needs to be clarified that usually, especially during the 'off times' for the sides like Bloody April for the Brits, that the older pilots were much more aware of what they faced and tried to avoid getting tangled too badly in a fur ball that had odds against them. Same with the Germans during the Waning Eindekker months prior to the Flying Circuses.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Lewie

[Guest British_eh]

Hi there,

 

Good points Lewie! I am sure that as the OFF DEV TEAM has done previously, P4 AI will be just that much better.

 

In the meantime, for your enjoyment, we provide an alternate realistic Workshop Settings primer so to enable you to fly according to parameters that we have researched as an alternate. Tonight I took my DVII over the lines on an "Airfield Attack". This did occur, but not till March 1918, and then only for a short while. As I happened to be in this time frame, I flew over the Front, and towards the Allied Air base. As we appoahed I saw some Allied aircraft coming to meet us. I hit "R" and then turned my aircraft and hit" Äuto pilot" which brought my gentlemen in line, and we headed for the German side of the lines. The Allied AI did not pursue us. Using the SIA - RSS parameters this was a mostly realistic mission flight. The Germans wouldn''t have stayed, and the Allies may be rue to follow thinking a trap may lay ahead as they may not wish to pursue as such. The new SIA - RSS will be posted soon thus enabling you a further choice in your missions selected. Bletchley has also updated the "Gun Loadout"so that you may know an alternate maximum gun loadout for your aircraft. Also be aware that gun loadout,especially for the Germans was always a consideration to save weight.

 

Should the OFF DEV TEAM decide to change some of the mission parameters then it will be provided by default, and we believe the realism will be that much better.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

[Guest British_eh]

Hi there,

 

Good points Lewie! I am sure that as the OFF DEV TEAM has done previously, P4 AI will be just that much better.

 

In the meantime, for your enjoyment, we provide an alternate realistic Workshop Settings primer so to enable you to fly according to parameters that we have researched as an alternate. Tonight I took my DVII over the lines on an "Airfield Attack". This did occur, but not till March 1918, and then only for a short while. As I happened to be in this time frame, I flew over the Front, and towards the Allied Air base. As we appoahed I saw some Allied aircraft coming to meet us. I hit "R" and then turned my aircraft and hit" Äuto pilot" which brought my gentlemen in line, and we headed for the German side of the lines. The Allied AI did not pursue us. Using the SIA - RSS parameters this was a mostly realistic mission flight. The Germans wouldn''t have stayed, and the Allies may be rue to follow thinking a trap may lay ahead as they may not wish to pursue as such. The new SIA - RSS will be posted soon thus enabling you a further choice in your missions selected. Bletchley has also updated the "Gun Loadout"so that you may know an alternate maximum gun loadout for your aircraft. Also be aware that gun loadout,especially for the Germans was always a consideration to save weight.

 

Should the OFF DEV TEAM decide to change some of the mission parameters then it will be provided by default, and we believe the realism will be that much better.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

[77Scout 3]

The doctor advised me about that sort of talk after that bloody satellite wouldn't stop beaming me messages in summer '06.

 

Two words ... "tinfoil hat"

[+Polovski 458]

As we said before, if we made it so that if you ever died once in sim, just the once, then we formatted your hard drive and set fire to your PC so you can never ever play OFF again, you'd stay away from trouble at all times. I suspect that would take down the kills dramatically ;). A sim can never be real life for that reason alone, but we do make you care about your pilot which helps.

Currently in P3 AI do run for home ( I see them often) they just are usually sitting ducks and get taken out by players or some players don't notice that 1 craft left the fight etc.

 

We are looking at the AI as WM says lets see where it goes :)

[Olham 164]

The AI behaviour has been discussed a lot before, and we all know, that it would be nice, if the AI

could make a "sheltered withdrawal" form fights; like some of them guard the others from higher positions,

until the whole flight is assembled and can fly home.

But as Hellshade says - there is still the human player, who had to act similarly to make it work.

 

The great MvR has mostly attacked only one craft, brought it down and made sure to know, where it crashed.

We seem to be much more bloodthirsty often - because we cannot die through enemy fire.

 

Did you ever try and fly the "less aggressive" AI setting?

I think that was a promising attempt by the devs, to change this very problem.

You should really try it out - the enemy craft will remain much more out of your reach, if they can.

SPADs will retreat in an almost frustrating (but realistic) way from you after an attack.

 

The major problem with that AI was, that it was far to little aggressive.

It flies perfectly defensive, but it hardly ever attacks.

Winder's comment makes me hope and believe, that they will continue to improve the AI behaviour.

I am sure, they are on the right way.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Olham

[DukeIronHand 8]

Did you ever try and fly the "less aggressive" AI setting?

 

I have multiple times and, frankly, I like the "feel" of it but I read here that when using it the AI flies their A/C in a "gentle" fashion (low bank turns, shallow climbs and dives, etc).

 

Any truth to this is anyone's experience? My SA hardly allows such a detailed analysis of AI behavior!

[Olham 164]

Well, it's some time ago now, that I used it.

I now use the setting "historical", which is said to use the "less aggressive" more early,

and then changes more and more towards aggressive.

 

As far as I remember, the SPAD AI did their defensive flying rather well, but without enough attacks.

The other craft were easier to kill, once you had reached them.

[CaptSopwith 23]

Well, it's some time ago now, that I used it.

I now use the setting "historical", which is said to use the "less aggressive" more early,

and then changes more and more towards aggressive.

 

As far as I remember, the SPAD AI did their defensive flying rather well, but without enough attacks.

The other craft were easier to kill, once you had reached them.

 

The less aggressive model actually replicates Boom and Zoom planes rather well. I don't think I ever caught a Spad while fighting in an Albatros. The only downside, like you said, is that they didn't attack enough - usually one pass and zzzzzzip, gone. It was frustrating, but I'm sure it was more accurate to what actually happened - try to get them in one go and if it doesn't work, get out. The difference in the real skies of WWI is that the Spads would likely have gained altitude and made another pass. Whereas their OFF brethren just scoot for home.