SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[+EricJ 4,245]

It's not so much that... I had some mental issues I had to overcome and slowly (ED forums much slower than here) re-entering communities I had left due to the simple fact that I had to settle down and so on (my mind at least).  Still not a hundred percent (never will be) but much better off than i was earlier this year.  So no problem man as it keeps me busy and re-learning stuff again is a good thing

[Do335 382]

ah darn my jokes mate. i mean after top gun the aviation community just loves the tomcat even more, and we know all the buffs between the cat and the bug... remember once in a chat room i said something like "the hornet is great it turns and banks at 90kts!" and then everybody started jumping at me ehehe.

and about what you're saying though, although a hobby is not important as a family or a career, i do think it is important that one keeps his passion, it is afterall one of the things you live for. i've had to take a few breaks along the years as well and it felt a significant part of myself is just missing. RL is tough and takes precedence for sure, but gotta give yourself props for getting back to it!

anyway got a few DACT ideas in mind, will contribute my report soon.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Do335

[+EricJ 4,245]

Ahh yeah... my view is that Tomcat yes, is superior to the Super Bug in most ways but it didn't survive the Navy cutting it out and so on... but yeah agreed they can bluster all they want but they're not rolling off the decks anymore, etc.

 

But cool... may start getting more friendly with some more OPFOR stuff but remains to be seen...

[saisran 84]

I've had situations mainly where 'winders lock onto the wrong heat source and spike a friendly or I'm trying to down an enemy and well... yeah, so I end the mission and be careful next time...

 

If you can see the enemies on the map and look at the radar display you can filter out the enemies from the good guys by looking at your radar and map display and gauging patterns.  It's best when you're in a position to do so rather than "in the thick of it", etc.

Yeah. There were just a couple of instances when Friendly and bandit was ontop of each other and i wasn't able to discern properly betwen the C and the < and ended up locking the C :P  But the weirdest friendly kill i had was when my Phoenix exploded off behind an Su-27 and took out a chasing Mirage 3.  Fired at near max range of 70nm from 35Kft bandit at around 10. F9 view to watch the hit. Su-27 turned away from my missile and extended. I still felt that its gonna be a good kill as the missile animation was alive, but the phoenix started tumbling and exploded behind it and in front of the Mirage.

[+EricJ 4,245]

Well usually I start "plinking" when there is a discernible difference on the radar display of who is who, I go weapons tight in that situation instead...  I've shot down a couple F-5s or some planes with just one missile so... weird things do happen...

[cougar_1979 37]

DACT matchup #3, F-4E VS MiG-23ML, guns only, starting at neutral. Both videos are cropped. In future i might even cut them even more, to include only the last 10nm from the approach.

The first hop is with me flying the F-4E. Just like in the previous engagements, we start at 25nm away, only this time i want to let him come to my right. As we close in to 2nm i plug in the birner to get some extra speed for the initial break. Entering a hard break from mach 1.05 down to 380KIAS i get my nose on him within 1/2 a cirlce. He has made almost an identical turn and speeds by me. I decide to stay on him but this time with a sustained turn, in order not to sacrifice my turn rate. Another half a turn and he is infront of me again, wings spread out, which probablly means he slowed down. I follow him into another right turn, this time breaking down to 300KIAS. It seams he has bled off a lot of energy as he is hardly moving. In order to compensate, he dives low and and follow him through. The Phantom's (superb???) lower speed handling comes into its own as have little trouble staying with the bandit through all his breaks and jinks. He dives in once more, sweeping his wangs back and gaining energy for a climb, but stay on his six and give him 3 short bursts. The last one connects and damages his left wing. Another slight lead pull and the last burst makes him desintegrate into a fireball. 

Hop no2, is the same but with the roles reversed. Same conditions as before, only this time i let him pass me on my left. I botch the first turn a bit as i am too careful not to black out. Still, even flying as conservative as this i hear the specific wind sound of the plane going though the initial stages of buffeting. I roll into a nose low position to give my turn a bit of extra energy from the dive and manage to pull a nose on in the next few seconds. He executes a hard left break and try to follow him through, although by now i should have learned that the 23 doesn't like going slow. I remember this half through the turn and relax on the stick, letting the Flogger regain some energy in the dive. The rate of recovery is much faster then the one of the F-4, and possibly even the 104. I try to use this to my advantage, by performing the build-bleed procedure. From previous flights i know the 23 has very low endurance when in afterburner and i would like to avoid a typical turning engagement of energy attrition. By relaxing the stick i get my bird into the 900+ km/h range which gives me an exellent turning rate, but at the expense of frequent blackouts. I decide to come out of burner and break into him, which with the extra energy gets my nose right on him. He breaks hard left, a little high and i try to follow but with the current airspeed it's a no go and i plug the burner again. I slide in behind him and try a high angle off deflection shot, but he breaks before i can get my bank angle paralel with his and i miss. I unloadm turn left one more time and prepare for another attack. This time he breaks high and i roll into him to catch him in the climb. He reverses on me, but i gain enough energy in the climb to follow him without problems. I start pulling lead and give off a shot burst that misses the target. We get awfull close and i prepare to enter rollong scissors with him if needed. Fortunatley his break myst have cost him a good deal of energy and he levels off with me in pursuit. I give him another burst but i miss again. This gives him the chance to unload i get enough energy to pull a hard right break. I follow with a break of my own, but witness the 23's nose "rock" in the process. There is no way i can get a good shot if i don't calm her down. I unload, let her recover a bit and go for another missed shot. Fortunaltely for me, he seams in the mood for flat scissors and reverses his turn while i am right behind him. I fire a stream of bullets along his projected trajectory and he explodes in my sights.

Lessons learned.....and confirmed...... the 23 likes the slow fight even less then the 104. At least the ML version. This and the low fuel available for a sustained fight make the bird much more useful when used with dedicated energy tactics. Unlike the F-4 which could play both ways in this competition, the 23 should use it's short bursts of superior acceleration and climb to get into a position of advantage, execute an attack and then bug out of the engagement.

[+EricJ 4,245]

Me: F/A-18F Block II with 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120C-7, gun

Opposition: Mig-29K with 4 x R-73s (or 74s) and 4 x R-77, gun

 

Takeaways:  Yeah it's a long one... 7 minutes and 22 seconds, I'll chop it down on the next one I do and I must say ShadowPlay is far more reliable than FRAPs, which is good...  I had gotten to thinking with the Su-33 in the motions of being retired (sniff...) I might as well move on and use the Mig-29K.  I will say that the aircraft hasn't been updated so it still has the UFO like maneuverability so the video is what it is.  Overall if I missed an update then I apologize...  But this is takeaways, not a pity party...  So in retrospect at the time the kill shot was purely reflexive, I had the shot, and took it and managed to come out on top.  The K will give a Super driver a workout in the close fight, but remember that the setting is on Excellent so for real Russian pilots I can imagine maybe at Regular (unless things have actually changed or they're still not very proficient) I'd have it easier but I'm getting the feeling I'm being unfair to russo2004uk in assuming it's still the standard?  If not I'll redo it with an updated FM if one is available. (And for some reason the whole paragraph wanted to center along with the video, weird formatting error but not intended for the text anyway...)

 

If not then here's it anyway:

 

Dealing with the Mig-29K at close range was as you saw, quite maneuverable even if it had near-UFO like flying abilities.  In the end when it took the first shot as you saw it sailed right past me.  Which is why even with modern AAMs still is a very chancy shot, and I believe I tried on my own first shot, but that was a poor one given that the 9X simply couldn't make the intercept and the second shot had a much better chance at killing the Mig.  Again it's about timing and taking a chance on your shots.  Given modern AAMs and their lethality the video still shows they aren't perfect and if you're pushing a bad angle or shot (as I apparently was) then modern tech won't always be there to help.  Again take the shot, relax a bit and see what happens, and then move to the next course of action if needed.  That way if you kill the enemy you can think about the rest of reality but in that microcosm of the fight, stay focused and react and push for a better position so you can nail the enemy and go home.  I tried to get him (and hoping fervently) that he would lose energy but as you saw he was still truckin while I was going for a good shot.

[Do335 382]

Nice one cougar! I've always wondered what happens when the flogger tangles with the phantom. i'd thought that due to its variable sweep wing like the tomcat, it will gain the upper hand once the fight gets slow but apparently... that is not the case at all..?

[Caesar 305]

Nice reports, gents!

[brownba 0]

Lots of fun reading these reports. How does SF2 handle BVR? Has anyone set up any engagements to try it out?

[+EricJ 4,245]

It handles it fine in my opinion (never seemed to disappoint) but you have to look at the scheme of things versus the knife fight we mainly go with.  First it's lock, launch and with the "laser" AAMs it's kinda... boring really (even when they're not laser-like) for even me who's gotten a lot of BVR kills.  I've done more actual dogfights in SF2 in this thread than in reg'lar missions.  But if there's something you'd like I'm sure one of us can help you out.

[Do335 382]

here's the DACT i mentioned a few pages back flying the mig-15. the guy talking is me:D for i decided to do a voice over this time.

 

 

next up.. probably gonna do a Hunter vs mig-19.

[+EricJ 4,245]

Pretty good Do335... At the beginning just round and round in circles...   But for the first engagement nice gun shot as well as the others...

[saisran 84]

Was supposed to Upload 2 vids today but reading the DACTs just made me forgot what i was supposed to do. Really nice reports. I especially like Do335 report. it was very informative and gave me new understanding of the vertical. Felt like i was in top gun school listening to an instructor give his lesson. Much enjoyed and much appreciated. Will post my report tomorrow once i got it in youtube. Decided to try out an english fighter. :)

[cougar_1979 37]

Nice one cougar! I've always wondered what happens when the flogger tangles with the phantom. i'd thought that due to its variable sweep wing like the tomcat, it will gain the upper hand once the fight gets slow but apparently... that is not the case at all..?

Thanks mate!

Yeah, it seams the 23 is pretty bad when slow. It doesn't seam to be directly related to the wing sweep though, it's more of an angle of attack issue. Still, it seams that the most forward wing sweep was not meant to be flown with, but used only for landing and takeoffs.  Once you start getting close to the mid range (around 15 degrees) it's starts to buffet like mad and this only gets worse when slowing down. The second big issue (i might try to capture this on video) is the authority of the pitch. You can get some crazy instantaneous nose ups in this plane, the nose starts going in all directions as soon as the speed drops. Try imagining a cobra dance and you'll get the idea. The wiki article on the 23 mentiones that the MLD version in the early 80's actually adressed some of the low speed handling characteristics by implementing some minor structural modifications.

 

BTW, loved that flight! The Korea birds are beauties to behold.

Edited October 27, 2014 by cougar_1979

[Do335 382]

hey appreciate it guys. a bit occupied today, mayhaps gonna try the hunter tomorrow.

Still, it seams that the most forward wing sweep was not meant to be flown with, but used only for landing and takeoffs...the MLD version in the early 80's actually adressed some of the low speed handling characteristics by implementing some minor structural modifications.

what the... that's unworldly going thru all the trouble to implement a wing sweep but just to serve as a glorified flap... hell. also reminds me how little i actually know of some of them ruskie birds... thanks mate that's good info for me.

 

 

PS i did some research on what the buffet means in the game and here's what i came up with, based on what TK said in some posts.

basically you start to hear the buffet sound once your alpha goes past "alphastall" and your aircraft's CL is on a reduced slant. more over some stall characteristics also kicks in once past it. anyway the point i got from this is to avoid buffeting as much as possible, unless pulling in for a shot / doing last ditch maneuvers etc.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Do335

[+EricJ 4,245]

Pretty much man, rule of thumb is to not press too much if that's happening (learning the hard way again in DCS but gotten better) or you'll just stall and that's about it.

 

I got a new stick (a buddy got it for me as a thanks for some consulting I did for him), a Thrustmaster Hotas X so I have to relearn a new stick (the detent is just annoying as I prefer the smooth movement of the Logitech) so within a few days I'll probably be posting a new DACT as soon as I get used to the new stick.

[Robert33 2]

@saisran

Well, a couple of multi-role birds won't hurt in upgrading the PAF's defense capabilities.

 

To stay in topic, I'll also be posting my "DACT" soon. If you guys don't mind, it will be from the mobile version of SF since its the one that I get to use given my lifestyle.

[+EricJ 4,245]

There's no real exclusion as far as platforms so go for it.

[Robert33 2]

Well, keeping to the DACT topic, I got the urge to try out other planes in the game... So I decided to take out the Mirage IIIE out for a spin.... Even though this is from the mobile platform, I realize why it's the last of the Western 50s interceptors (Mirage III, F-104, BAC Lightning) to remain in service albeit in a variety of forms. And true to its real life characteristics, it loses speed/energy FAST during prolonged turns. Of course, this is in the mobile version so the effects are more forgiving.

 

On the other hand, its radar missile, RD550 if I recall correctly, feels like a dead weight in terms of reliability though it could be atributed to the somewhat historically lackluster performance of the Cyrano radar.

 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Robert33

[+EricJ 4,245]

Pretty good even though it's mobile (sorry PC purist but that's just me...)  But to me it seemed way too easy to lock on a target and know you're going to hit, are they just that accurate overall?

 

Found it easier to land with Strike Fighters 2 and DCS with he new stick than Arma 3 (which blows my mind in some ways) but yeah... should be doing a DACT tomorrow.

Edited October 28, 2014 by EricJ

[Robert33 2]

@EricJ

Mobile versions of most games are easier in general since they have to appeal to a larger market than dedicated games like SF2. That said, games on mobile platforms are generally less capable compared to their PC counterparts. With regards to missile accuracy, I would say that for a mobile game, there's still a degree of realism to it. Fire any missile from the 50's - 80's (rather sweeping statement there) at ranges closer and at angles higher than I was at on the video and they will miss. Note that I didn't just fire my missiles even when the indicator said that the missile will surely hit (99%). And yes, at lvl 100, bogeys in this game know how to dodge missiles or spoil gun solutions... Just not all the time and the AI here is certainly more of a sitting duck (solo) compared to the ones on the PC version.

[Robert33 2]

As an example of how missiles are in the mobile version, here's another DACT with an F-104S. Ideally, I would use energy tactics and boom and zoom to win the day. But since I am under time limit, coupled with the rather narrow engagement cone of the AIM-9B and the slow-locking of the AIM-7B, I'm forced into a slow-speed circle.

 

Luckily, I was facing off against Floggers in this fight as well as the fact that the mobile version is far more friendly compared to the PC version.

 

[saisran 84]

Interesting post Robert. One thing i can tell you is that the mobile version of SF is better than warthunder. :P the only reason i still  play that game is because of the F-6F and the multiplayer aspect of it.

 

As for my promise. Here it is.

 

EF-2000 Typhoon VS Su-27SKM Clean Configuration Guns Only

 

I choose the typhoon because it's been the constant bandit when i was trying to fix the flankers cockpit on my install. (so far ive only managed to get the Su-33 to work properly). During the fights. I've noticed that the Euro Fighter tends to go much slower. Now as far as i know and i could be well mistaken. Delta planes despite having great alpha and initial turn it doesn't really sustain turns quite well and is better kept at higher speed....

 

First fight

 

 

we spawned 3nm off right of our nose. The AI turns before i could set my throttle. But the instantenous turning ability of the eurofighter placed me behind his 3/9 line. By bleeding off my nergy i could easily pull lead on the Flanker but this only gives me a minimal window of opportunity which is too small for a lock. The answer would be to eyeball my firing solution but you all know how good i am with that. I tried then to build energy and fight in the regions above 300KIAS but it seems that the flanker can sustain his turn better at speeds above 350KIAS than i am. Getttng bored with the endless turning i decided to change the flow of the fight and weent vertical. A couple of headon passes with a hairy moment where i was being met by tracers i was able to get in to a postion of advantage as we get on the dive. I was able to roll my plane right behidn the flanker when he decided to reverse his turn  to make me overshoot. Bad move! As i was under 0.1nm from his tail i have i have a clear view of his side profile. Trigger down and the shells hit right down the middle igniting the fuel tank. Fight lasted about 7 1/2 mins.

Edited October 28, 2014 by saisran

[saisran 84]

2nd fight.

 

The thing i like about the Euro Fighter is that its quite easy to acclimate oneself into it. Its very predictable and forgiving that you can try to experiment with the plane just after 7 mins of flying it! I pretty much have figured out a way to fly the plane in my own terms. Probably not the way it should be flown but i figured i can win with just my way.

 

EF-2000 VS Su-27SKM

 

I let the Flanker get round behind me to see what the typhoon can really do. As soon as i saw his tracers i made my move. i rolled my plane in a dive and let the lift generated to allow the plane to pull its nose up to complete a Split S. Bandit is right behind. I wanted the flanker to lose his energy in the vertical but pulling up now will ensure a 30mm Shell on my tail so i decided to roll and dive once more but this time instead off leveling my plane i continued the pull up into the vertical. With my plane straight up i punched the airbrakes and pulled tighter. The Flanker tried to follow but lost all his energy and was forced to level out to recover. ( Choosing the external view in my mind was the right decision as the move looks so damn cool... at least to me it is :P ) I rolled my Typhoon right side up to extend a bit and reengage. I was able to get my nose round for what supposed to be a perfect position to end the fight but again my gunnery failed me.  Ended up in a turning fight with the flanker flying nose low and my euro fighter going up and down. In the end i was able to dive down inside his turn and after two short burst that missed the third one is just too damn close to miss.

 

 

Takeaways:

 

I have to re check my info on Delta's as the euro fighter really comes alive below 300 Kias. There's a wonderful feeling on pulling off stunts! need to learn some proper moves!