SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[+EricJ 3,937]

@Cougar

Thank you for the DACTs. They are very interesting to say the least especially the Flogger vs Starfighter matchup. Based on the video, it looks like you had the easiest time with the F-104 though the MiG23 is pretty close.

 

@everyone

I've been reading a bit into British aviation and got intrigued with the BAC Lightning. According to the available info on the web, it was the best dogfighter among the 50s interceptors, capable of giving F-104s a run for their money in speed and acceleration, pulling 9Gs as well as still being pointable at low-speeds. There are even accounts that it took down early Eagles in WVR exercises. Any takers into checking how well the Lightning stacks up to its contemporaries from the 50s and some of the planes in the 70s?

 

I've never touched the Lightning much more than take it for a quick spin and that was it so I couldn't honestly tell anybody what I thought.  It was okay but realistically it was nothing exciting.

Edited November 14, 2014 by EricJ

[Robert33 2]

Tried the basic lightning model from TW a while back. Again im not sure bout the FM's accuracy but i couldn't really turn with it any better than the F-104 as we know pulling G's above 430Kias is a sure recipe for a black out.

Hmm.. Which basic Lightning did you use? The F1 version?

 

@ericj

Can't blame you for thinking about the Lightning like that. Though according to available pilot accounts, it was quite the hotrod.

[+EricJ 3,937]

I mean I'm not saying its crap, it just doesn't lift my skirt you know? So its not bad, I just don;t have any personal need to fly it I guess.

[Robert33 2]

I mean I'm not saying its crap, it just doesn't lift my skirt you know? So its not bad, I just don;t have any personal need to fly it I guess.

No worries, I didn't take it that way :) though all things considered, it was "crap" in the sense that it was a literal one-trick pony. And even in it's specialty of air-to-air, it's at a distinct disadvantage when the late 70s rolled in since it doesn't have bvr capability plus the lack of RWR at least hurts it bad IRL.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Yeah that's a good point, these days you need a multi-role platform, whereas the old "one trick pony" just doesn't cut it anymore.

[cougar_1979 37]

@Cougar

Thank you for the DACTs. They are very interesting to say the least especially the Flogger vs Starfighter matchup. Based on the video, it looks like you had the easiest time with the F-104 though the MiG23 is pretty close.

 

 

I only got him so easy because the AI decided to be creative and make that vertical pull. If not for that, the fight would have lasted at least 2-3 minutes more.

 

I had 2 lenghty DACTs for you lads, but as i scrolled down my mouse went over the "weather blink" by accedent, and it all went down the drain. I can't retype all of it now, so forgive me for giving you the short version. This time i went free form and completely dissimilar. I took the new F-5E against the Sea Harrier FRS and vice versa.

 

 

The first recording starts 3-4 turns after the merge as i forgot to push the record button (today i must be jinxed). Aside from being almost blind in BVR, the F-5 is a great nimble fighter. It loves both the slow and the medium airspeed fights with its performance actually increasing well into the 400's. This was a surprise to me as i didn;t expect that, always imagining it as a low speed dogfighter. Its authority in a break and roll is superb. One of the fastest rollers out there. It feels a bit underpowered in the mid mach region, so i would advice against excessive bleeds unless you are confident you can maintain constant pressure on the bandit. Being small and nimble is another great thing, i realised when i flew against him. I usually get my gun kills at 0.3-0.5nm as this gives me enough time to react to adversary jinx but also it doesn't take the stream to reach the bandit too long, thus minimizing chances of to broad a bullet dispersion or too much delay. Against the F-5 though, i onlu got my kill in the 0.2-0.3nm region. When later on i took the F-14A against it, thinking that maybe i am not used to the Harrier gunsight, i spent almost 600 round before finally getting my grips and closing withing 0.3nm (actually well within). On the second F-14A fight i got my kill relatively easy by firing only from ranges bellow 0.3nm. If your HUD, radar scope or gunsight, does not provide you with range to the target, try to find some visual clues as to when you should fire. For me it is that moment when the aircraft features become clearly visible (you have no promblems making out the wings, tail, stabs, or features like external stores and markings. The Harrier was pretty good. It had a superior BVR radar for sure. But it suffers from a somewhat early buffet onset, which restricts your ability to exectute hard breaks without bleeding of too much, too fast. The nose is somewhat shaky in the low end of mach. What this baby seams to have is a lot of thrust. It accelerates VERY good in the medium-high part of the envelope. In fact, i found its acceleration in the mid mach to be better then the F-14A when down low, which is extremely strange for a plane wihtout afterburner. So my opinion is the bird might be a bit overpowered. But that is just that, my opnion. I have no data what so ever on the real thing's performance. Anyways, i had a good time with both AC, the F-5 gun defense gave me quite a bit of challenge and i loved going against it. Flying with it is a joy too. In capable hands it is quite the match for any 4th generation fighter as long as the fight is restricted to WVR and you have a solid GCI. I am tempted to try a series of sorties with F-5E and A-4s flying against early F-14A's and see how the birds interact in the sim.

[Caesar 305]

In capable hands it is quite the match for any 4th generation fighter as long as the fight is restricted to WVR and you have a solid GCI. I am tempted to try a series of sorties with F-5E and A-4s flying against early F-14A's and see how the birds interact in the sim.

 

Depends on how you want to handle the fight.  If you do just visual, you'll slaughter the F-14's.  You'd also slaughter F-15's, F-16's, and F/A-18's based on my recent experiences.  Longer ranges are a little different, but the thing is, you can basically fly in at low altitude, break the lock of the AIM-7's they'll be firing at you, and so long as you can deny them the heater shot at first pass, you probably won't have too many problems splashing the aircraft.  I actually did a mission just like that a little while ago; believe it was 8 F-5's vs 4 F-14A's.  Final survivors were 1 F-14, 1 F-5 (not me), where about three of the F-5's were lost en-route to the engagement area, making the fight a 5 v 4 at the merge.  I had gotten ahead of my flight, bagged an F-14 head on, came around to the tail of another, shot him down, then got hit by an AIM-9 myself.  During that time, we lost another F-5, so now it was 3 v 2.  One of the F-14's was apparently damaged (based on debug) and started running.  One more F-5 got bagged trying to chase him down, another F-5 and the last F-14 got into a duel, both hit each other with guns, but the F-14 survived.  The running F-14 got splashed by the last remaining F-5, who was apparently too far to turn and engage the last F-14, and both defaulted to "WAYPOINT" on the debug, then separated from the engagement area.

 

On the flip side, the AI doesn't do the low-altitude stuff too well, so when I did the engagement from the F-14 side, the F-5's never even made it to the merge.

 

That said, it was a lot of fun from the small fighter side; might as well see how it works out for you!

[Caesar 305]

From last night, I did a DACT flight against the JAS-39C Gripen.  The Gripen is kind of like a super F-16, even lighter, even smaller, and with large moving canards, allowing the type to pull some pretty ridiculous moves in the instantaneous regime.  I was flying the F-14D.

 

Loadouts were:

F-14D: guns, 75% fuel (~11,800 lbs at the merge)

Gripen: guns, 100% fuel (~4500 lbs at the merge)

 

This fight was a pretty difficult one.  Maybe not as bad as the F-31 experimental plane fight, but the Gripen is a maneuverable little bird, and nearly as difficult to hit as the F-5.  The F-14 started the fight in the vertical, as it kind of typical; got to the top of the loop, dropped maneuver flaps ("takeoff") and began coming down on the Gripen.  Normally, with both the GE engines and gravity aiding the F-14, it's easy to get lead, but the Gripen decided to add some vertical of its own, and the two passed each other.  The Gripen was turning pretty darn well, even with the vertical element, and rather than chasing it up hill, the F-14 pulled into a sustained turn to try to meet him somewhere down low.  Well, that didn't work.  Rather, the aircraft went neutral for a while, but at the distance we were, the AI was comfortable making some max-instantaneous turns to get the nose around, then unload and threaten the F-14.

 

As the F-14's nose got on the Gripen, the Gripen was already pointing at the F-14, coming down.  The F-14 was not in danger, and as the two passed, the F-14 pulled hard into the vertical.  The Gripen fired at nothing for some reason.  The F-14 went to max left rudder to force the nose to slice more quickly at the Gripen, but still had too much energy.  As the F-14 came down, trying to get its lift vector in front of the Gripen, it was able to take a snap shot, but nothing connected, and the fight went into a sustained right-hand turn.  This setup happened about three times.  On the third, the Tomcat entered its pull with about 250KIAS, and was down in the low-80's of knots (indicated) as it reached the apex of its loop to try to get on the Gripen.  Max rudder, yaw rate was very high, and the Tomcat's nose sliced right onto the Gripen's tail.  The Gripen and F-14 went nose-low for the deck with the F-14 still glued to the Gripen's tail.  The Tomcat took several snap shots in the spiral down, but none connected.  At the lower altitudes, both aircraft had gained significant energy and had exceptional "g" available, but the F-14 kept down closer to 6-7 for the most part, as this was all that was necessary (Gripen was between 8 and 14 at any given moment).  Both aircraft were also putting out so much thrust at the lower altitudes, that gaining altitude wasn't as taxing on energy, and both the Gripen and the Tomcat made altitude-gaining turns at different points, to then try to get gravity working in their favor.  No shots were made.

 

 

The fight, for the most part, was now alternating between about 6,000 and 500 feet, and the Gripen had to pull straight up to avoid becoming a lawn-dart on two occasions.  On the second occasion, the F-14 was able to get into firing position and take a shot.  This missed, however, the Gripen was not effectively able to pull away from the F-14, which by now was getting down to about 6000 pounds of fuel.  The Gripen had been running its afterburner for a while, so its surprising it wasn't out of gas.  Both aircraft climbed as they turned, and the F-14 was able to splash the Gripen as the aircraft approached 10,000 feet with a gun shot.  Total fight time was about 10 minutes.

 

 

 

Takeaways:

The Gripen is a pretty tough opponent, and unlike the F-31, is an operational aircraft.  The big thing to remember is to use the rudders!  During the various times we wound up nose-to-nose and I did my vertical pull after passing, the rudders added in high yaw rates especially at lower airspeeds, I was able to get the Gripen on the nose every time, but not really capitalize until the third instance.  What it came down to was that in the previous two, the Gripen still had the energy to pull away, while the third time, he didn't, and had to go nose-low to try to get away.  This didn't work out for him, and the lower altitude fighting was what eventually put him on my nose.  

[Robert33 2]

I only got him so easy because the AI decided to be creative and make that vertical pull. If not for that, the fight would have lasted at least 2-3 minutes more.

 

I had 2 lenghty DACTs for you lads, but as i scrolled down my mouse went over the "weather blink" by accedent, and it all went down the drain. I can't retype all of it now, so forgive me for giving you the short version. This time i went free form and completely dissimilar. I took the new F-5E against the Sea Harrier FRS and vice versa.

 

 

The first recording starts 3-4 turns after the merge as i forgot to push the record button (today i must be jinxed). Aside from being almost blind in BVR, the F-5 is a great nimble fighter. It loves both the slow and the medium airspeed fights with its performance actually increasing well into the 400's. This was a surprise to me as i didn;t expect that, always imagining it as a low speed dogfighter. Its authority in a break and roll is superb. One of the fastest rollers out there. It feels a bit underpowered in the mid mach region, so i would advice against excessive bleeds unless you are confident you can maintain constant pressure on the bandit. Being small and nimble is another great thing, i realised when i flew against him. I usually get my gun kills at 0.3-0.5nm as this gives me enough time to react to adversary jinx but also it doesn't take the stream to reach the bandit too long, thus minimizing chances of to broad a bullet dispersion or too much delay. Against the F-5 though, i onlu got my kill in the 0.2-0.3nm region. When later on i took the F-14A against it, thinking that maybe i am not used to the Harrier gunsight, i spent almost 600 round before finally getting my grips and closing withing 0.3nm (actually well within). On the second F-14A fight i got my kill relatively easy by firing only from ranges bellow 0.3nm. If your HUD, radar scope or gunsight, does not provide you with range to the target, try to find some visual clues as to when you should fire. For me it is that moment when the aircraft features become clearly visible (you have no promblems making out the wings, tail, stabs, or features like external stores and markings. The Harrier was pretty good. It had a superior BVR radar for sure. But it suffers from a somewhat early buffet onset, which restricts your ability to exectute hard breaks without bleeding of too much, too fast. The nose is somewhat shaky in the low end of mach. What this baby seams to have is a lot of thrust. It accelerates VERY good in the medium-high part of the envelope. In fact, i found its acceleration in the mid mach to be better then the F-14A when down low, which is extremely strange for a plane wihtout afterburner. So my opinion is the bird might be a bit overpowered. But that is just that, my opnion. I have no data what so ever on the real thing's performance. Anyways, i had a good time with both AC, the F-5 gun defense gave me quite a bit of challenge and i loved going against it. Flying with it is a joy too. In capable hands it is quite the match for any 4th generation fighter as long as the fight is restricted to WVR and you have a solid GCI. I am tempted to try a series of sorties with F-5E and A-4s flying against early F-14A's and see how the birds interact in the sim.

Your recent DACT reminds of an account of the SHAR (Sea Harrier)'s DACT debut against the F-5E Aggressors... The F-5s got slaughtered... I'll have to search for that anecdote again and post it here for reference...

[Robert33 2]

Ok, I found the link to the SHAR's DACT debut. Can't confirm the authenticity though, whether how much is fact or fighter pilot bravado..

 

http://www.combatsim.com/memb123/archive/htm/htm_arc2/f15_shar.htm

Edited November 16, 2014 by Robert33

[saisran 84]

@Robert33 - late reply. Yes it was the F1. I tried to fly it the other day for a DACT report but wasn't able to get any satisfactory result. The plane is quite a handful to control and you really need to be able to respond quickly so that it doesn't get out of your hand. The one thing that gets me every time is the planes tendency to suddenly roll when at the limits. I would need a set of rudder pedals for this. i cant do it with the ex3d pros twist rudder.

 

On another Topic.

 

Been taking this girl out on campaigns. Really love this jet.

 

F-8J vs Mirage 2000D Guns only

 

RC called bandit 10m at 12 o'clock. went high and slipped to the right to avoid a head on shot. As the Mirage passed underneath i rolled the gunfighter on her belly and pulled her in a loop diving down on the Mirage. After a brief moment of trying not to fully blackout i found myself in a left hand turn nose up with the mirage high up in front. He dove and i followed a bit of blind shooting with no hits. He went up so i yanked the stick up and placed her in full burners which placed he mirage back on my hud. He took a right hand turn and after few seconds he reversed to the other direction which was a very stupid move for him. I was able to pickup on what he was gonna do and position my gunfighter nicely. Trigger down too much lead. Aim at the back and work my way up. Trigger down and a millimeter of correction placed enough rounds on his ass to destroy his engine. To be honest i was surprised on the swiftness of the engagement. i was expecting the mirage to place me in a much harder fight.

 

Sorry about that thing at the side i didn't realize it was there till i got the vid uploaded. kindly bear with it. Thank you.

 

 

 

The two extras are from the first missions of my current campaign flying the D variant of the F-8.

 

First was a Mig-17F who took out one of my guys. (a bit of revenge)

second was a high altitude chase against a Mig-27. I thought i would ran out of gas or blow my engine but i was able to get near enough for a gun kill.
 

[cougar_1979 37]

Ok, I found the link to the SHAR's DACT debut. Can't confirm the authenticity though, whether how much is fact or fighter pilot bravado..

 

http://www.combatsim.com/memb123/archive/htm/htm_arc2/f15_shar.htm

An interesting read for sure, though i am not sure how to interpet it. In the sim, you can't quite get the most of the Harriers as you can't simulate the proper thrust vectoring, and even when you can, you don't really have the proper control inputs (as in separate nozzle stick) to use it effectively. By reading those reports i can say two things. The pilots were good sticks (if the reports is true), OR someone wanted to make the SHAR look really good. I have read/heard inteviews of pilots that flew against diferent versions of the harrier (both US and UK) and the concensus seams to be that they can be tricky dogfighters. The accent being on tricky. But seldom have a seen the word excellent od good being used.

 

The thing is, the harriers can pull some serious s*** whith the variable nozzles, probably more so then any other plane ever equipped with them, and to a pilot who never flew against such an adversary this can be a shocker. However the pilots mentions also said this kinda works only once and only if you face somone who hasn't been up against it before. You also get only one shot at the enemy. The harrier not being the most "thrust rich" AC, can do some crazy out of plane maneuvers, but the stunt costs him energy, a lot of energy that the bird is not quick to recover. And, against all aspect heat seakers, hiding your exhaust is not really helpfull. I wonder why those F-5E whent down instead of up though? Maybe they bled them selves dry first?

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 4 x AIM-9X and 6 x AIM-120D, tank, gun

Opposition: F-5E with 2 x AIM-9 and tank, gun

 

This wasn't a "pure" DACT but I did have to test the g-limiter now implemented on the Super Hornets.  Usually I test most things on the EPE given the higher performance and capability and assume slightly better performance on the non-EPE types, due to the different handling characteristics.  What I found out was that the limiter made me blackout much more and quite basically given the maneuvering and the constant blacking out, I lost sight, I lost the fight, literally as I smacked into the ground.  So this is both the description and takeaway section of the fight as the Freedom Fighter  gave me some "freedom" by trying to spike me twice with his 'winders at a couple times with the gun, as he literally was on my tail and I didn't know my ass from my elbow, so I hope to do a better DACT with 9gs (realism which may help when going against it) and nail that joker, as he's 1/0 his favor right now.  Regardless the things I did do was not think, but react and drop flares (I recommend the flares and chaff on easy to reach buttons, I always map on the hat switch as it's more instinctive, even for a few planes I fly in DCS) and jink, and they both missed, but again... the 7.7g limit was a little too low and the extra 1.3 g's would have helped greatly.  But the point I want to stress is simply your reaction drills in the knife fight when he tries to spike you with  a missile.  Drop flares and jink jink jink away as best as possible, and praying doesn't hurt either

[Robert33 2]

An interesting read for sure, though i am not sure how to interpet it. In the sim, you can't quite get the most of the Harriers as you can't simulate the proper thrust vectoring, and even when you can, you don't really have the proper control inputs (as in separate nozzle stick) to use it effectively. By reading those reports i can say two things. The pilots were good sticks (if the reports is true), OR someone wanted to make the SHAR look really good. I have read/heard inteviews of pilots that flew against diferent versions of the harrier (both US and UK) and the concensus seams to be that they can be tricky dogfighters. The accent being on tricky. But seldom have a seen the word excellent od good being used.

 

The thing is, the harriers can pull some serious s*** whith the variable nozzles, probably more so then any other plane ever equipped with them, and to a pilot who never flew against such an adversary this can be a shocker. However the pilots mentions also said this kinda works only once and only if you face somone who hasn't been up against it before. You also get only one shot at the enemy. The harrier not being the most "thrust rich" AC, can do some crazy out of plane maneuvers, but the stunt costs him energy, a lot of energy that the bird is not quick to recover. And, against all aspect heat seakers, hiding your exhaust is not really helpfull. I wonder why those F-5E whent down instead of up though? Maybe they bled them selves dry first?

In the age of all-aspect seekers and wingman tactics, VIFFing with the Harrier's pretty much suicidal. More like a last resort thing. As for the F5Es running out of E or not going up, my guess is that its either a case of them successfully being held at the low altitude Harriers love or they were testing the limits of the SHAR since its their first time to encounter it.

 

To be fair to the article/account, the SHAR's DACT debut was the time when all aspect seekers were justing starting to come online and the prevailing heat seekers of the day were the rear-aspect types.

 

@saisaran

The next time you try a BAC Lightning, try either the F2A or the F6 versions. They were the best performing variants of the Lightning if memory serves me right.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Robert33

[cougar_1979 37]

I can't find the link right now, but there was this Hoser anecdote in which he mentions an interesting development during the early all aspect heater testing (i think it was the Lima). Namely he accelerated his plane as much as possible before reaching 10nm from the opposing aircraft (the one with Limas), then he switched the engined to idle and when they finally closed for the merge, the bandit could not get a forward seeker lock as the nozzles had cooled down significantly by then. Not that that trick would work today, as current generation (and the one prior) seans to be able to lock on the signatures generated in the nose and leading wing surfaces....

[+EricJ 3,937]

I saw an image somewhere on the internets somewhere that showed the seekers view of the target with an all aspect seeker head.  A nice bit of trivia though with that technique, but agreed... not in this world it works

[Do335 382]

I can't find the link right now, but there was this Hoser anecdote in which he mentions an interesting development during the early all aspect heater testing (i think it was the Lima). Namely he accelerated his plane as much as possible before reaching 10nm from the opposing aircraft (the one with Limas), then he switched the engined to idle and when they finally closed for the merge, the bandit could not get a forward seeker lock as the nozzles had cooled down significantly by then. Not that that trick would work today, as current generation (and the one prior) seans to be able to lock on the signatures generated in the nose and leading wing surfaces....

yep one of IRCM i think was the handle.... viable tactic to deny a front quarter shot before those... focal-array thrust-vectoring High off-bore... things came about.

 

*Do335 <- still lurking around..

[Caesar 305]

Cougar,

 

He actually shut them down.  Story as recounted at Tomcat-Sunset by "Clem" (an F-14 RIO):

 

"OK, first you need a LOT OF SMACK (read speed).  Then at 10 miles, you shut 'em both down (i.e. the ENGINES), not IDLE mind you shut the F___ERS DOWN!  At 2 miles (inject cold car cranking noises with turning keys motion and pumping an invisible gas peddle), you CRANK EM BACK UP.  You'll still have about 400 at the merge and I'd suggest you make the first move in the vertical!"

 

Think that's also mentioned in "Hoser here, Shoot!" but I lent my copy out so I can't confirm.

[cougar_1979 37]

Cougar,

 

He actually shut them down.  Story as recounted at Tomcat-Sunset by "Clem" (an F-14 RIO):

 

"OK, first you need a LOT OF SMACK (read speed).  Then at 10 miles, you shut 'em both down (i.e. the ENGINES), not IDLE mind you shut the F___ERS DOWN!  At 2 miles (inject cold car cranking noises with turning keys motion and pumping an invisible gas peddle), you CRANK EM BACK UP.  You'll still have about 400 at the merge and I'd suggest you make the first move in the vertical!"

 

Think that's also mentioned in "Hoser here, Shoot!" but I lent my copy out so I can't confirm.

Yep, that was exactly the one

[Caesar 305]

Something interesting about the new limiters EricJ put on his Super Bug: they make the plane more survivable in a gunfight when in AI control.  I went up against the newly limited Super Bug in an F-14 and it took me a hell of a lot longer to shoot the thing down.  The reason is that it prevents the AI from immediately pissing all of its energy away in a super-high-"g" maneuver for nose position, which backfires and leaves the bird open to attack.  So, this got me thinking: the biggest problem that the AI has with larger aircraft is keeping energy up; what if I put a limiter on an F-14?

 

So, I made an AI variant of the F-14B with a limiter on it and took up both another F-14B (no limiter) and an F-5E against it.  What I found was that the AI is much more survivable.  The fight in the F-5E lasted about 13 minutes, and the AI was able to get a firing solution on me twice, one time I probably only survived due to my tiny size.  What an improvement!  BUT!  The AI still does not handle the plane in a fashion I'd call "good."  The fight was likely that long because I'm so used to just being able to out-sustain turn the AI that had I managed my energy better, it wouldn't have gone on so long, especially early on when the AI jet wound up down in the 150s of KIAS for a bit early on.  In the F-14B, it was nowhere near that long, but it was two to three times longer to bag the AI F-14 than usual.

 

The major tactical implications are if the AI has missiles.  If your enemy hasn't pissed all his energy away and can keep you concentrated on him as his wingman pulls around, you're more likely going to take a missile up the pipe trying to sweeten that firing solution, or get hit by an all-aspect heater from a guy you're not maneuvering against.  I have to test this theory, but simply finding myself in a prolonged circle, or trying to reverse and suddenly having the AI with nose on taking a shot tells me that if heaters are involved, some of these fights are going to be a lot more dangerous. 

 

Of note, the AI still does wind up too slow sometimes (as mentioned above), but it takes it a lot longer to get there, and without the huge stab deflections, will actually sustain around 6-7g for a circle or three, rather than doing a push to 12, then ending up out of energy to maneuver.  Also, the limiters don't appear to affect slow-fighting since they're "g" related.  The AI F-14 was pushing out to 24-25 units AoA at certain points when it did get slow, and the F/A-18F that I tested against did similar, at one point getting pretty close to my tails; took a bit of effort to shake him off and shoot him down.

 

The values I used for the AI F-14 (called F-14B_96_AI) are 7.33 to deploy the limiter, 7.25 to retract.  Also makes me wonder about some of the other "easy" opponents like the F-15 and Su-27 (using a slightly higher value for those A/C, like 8 or so)...

[+EricJ 3,937]

For the player though notching it up to 9.0 g is a good balance between reality and the airframe though, as when I tried a DACT against an F-5E, that damn little thing was all over the place, and tried to shoot me down three times (two missiles avoided, last one gun).  I was blacking out so much that I lost sight, and flew into the ground, so I lost the fight . 

[Caesar 305]

Well, I didn't touch the limiter on the Super Bug, I've still got that one at 9.  I gave the AI F-14 a lower limit (no limiter on player aircraft) because I felt the AI already gets too slow with that bird, and having it hang out at 9 or trying to reach 9 over and over would keep it doing the same crap it usually does.  

[cougar_1979 37]

That's great news guys, i'm all for increasing AI's survivability.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Well, I didn't touch the limiter on the Super Bug, I've still got that one at 9.  I gave the AI F-14 a lower limit (no limiter on player aircraft) because I felt the AI already gets too slow with that bird, and having it hang out at 9 or trying to reach 9 over and over would keep it doing the same crap it usually does.  

 

Fair enough, I just have that train of thought of adding it to the Su-27 as you said, maybe get rid of that "UFO" FM that's going on.  Maybe it'll be a bit easier to kill, maybe, I'll have to mod it sometime and see what happens.

[Kyot54 2]

Unfortunately I'm at work right now, so I can't post the pictures I have to go with this, maybe add another post later. Couple of points if I may:

 

A. Hoser is awesome! I might make that points A-M. Nah, just kidding, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir.

 

B. Is changing the g limiter more for Single mission 1V, 2v? Or will it help with Campaigns? My biggest frustration with wingman, especially -4s is getting them to just plain shoot. I've ended mission where everyone has shot all their missiles except for -4, who hasn't fired anything.

 

C. I've noticed there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to when I'll get a tough fight versus easy fight, except with MiG-17s, they are almost always generally a pain. But more on that later. I took the Tomcat against what I thought would be the end-all-mother-of-all-DACTs: F-14B vs J-10A. After working it so that they couldn't just shoot me in the face everytime, it wasn't as fulfilling as hoped. I was almost always behind his 3-9 line, but still not pulling lead enough to get a shot. Instead of attempting to play games going around and around endlessly, I dropped landing flaps at around 220kt, plugged it into full burner. Within seconds I was pulling lead enough to get a good shot. Splash one Vicious Dragon. I flew a couple against the Naval Flanker from Black Sea Crisis, similar results regarding disappointment, though not as much need to drop flaps. If I didn't get a good angle in the first turns, and avoided the temptation to get into a sustained turn engagement, more often things would lead to a scissors scenario. Flanker has good guns defense, so if it was guns only it could be difficult, but not so much if you still have some heaters when he pushes out front.  

 

D. Did some F-4J/S,F-8 vs Fresco flying recently. I love the hard-wing on the S. That being said, I still say (with the Phantom for sure) best way to beat the -17 is the altitude game. After the merge I would zoom to as much as 26K ft, loiter if I could until he would have to dive to gain energy and try to put a sidewinder into him. If he did a turning dive, it might take a time or two, but it beats shaking them off your butt. About the only way I've found to do this if they can get in close is by exploiting the roll lag. I actually had three -17s close on my tail in an F-8E (campaign mission where they threw the whole squadron at just me and a wingman, and he didn't help much) and I was able to shake them off by doing shallow turn to keep speed up, then half roll into opposite turn, then repeating as soon as he would match wing position. Have to be careful though, I got low quite often and since the tendency for me is to roll underneath, I have to be sure to come out in a slight climbing turn if I can. Eventually you gain enough separation and throw them out of the circle, but it takes some patience and an iron gut (or at least a simulated one, lol).

 

I flip-flopped and flew the Flanker for a few engagements versus F-15C/16C and found I had much the same results as the Tomcat v. Flanker, though the Eagle was much easier to kill with guns than the Falcon. That new Flanker cockpit really is nice, if you haven't tried it out yet. Black Sea also has some nice skins for the Russian birds. Out of curiosity, Eric, what do you have the engines rated at for the EPE Bug? I played with it against the J-10 as well, predictable results. Does anyone know if the FM takes into account the pylon cant? I have wondered if that could be changed in the .ini or if it is an LOD thing? Just me being aerodynamically anal.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Kyot54