SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[cougar_1979 37]

Despite the overshoot (were you doing over 500knots there) that was actually pretty good for a first fight. The B/D Cat is quite forgiving to energy bleeds, mostly because of the excess thrust, and you did well to drop the flaps when you dropped below 200.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Gotcha, I've noticed as I think it was you or Caesar said that it bleeds speed like crazy when going high alpha, which doesn't endear it to me that much, but.... the more I fly it the more confident I'm getting, thanks...

Edited June 6, 2015 by EricJ

[cougar_1979 37]

Gotcha, I've noticed as I think it was you or Caesar said that it bleeds speed like crazy when going high alpha, which doesn't endear it to me that much, but.... the more I fly it the more confident I'm getting, thanks...

Yeah, it does bleed like crazy, especially with the stick all the way back. One way to controll it (aside from force feedback on your stick), is to keep one eye on your alpha indicator. The Sparrowhawk HUD equipped cats have a typical angle of attack indicator in the lower left, just below the airspeed and mach values. The windshield projected older era HUDs don't have one, and you need to see it on the Alpha strip (just above your airspeed dial). It should be noted that the strip shows the slpha in units and the HUD in degrees. Generally, when you want your best sustained turn, you keep your alpha between 15-21 units (10-15 degrees roughly). Higher then that and you bleed. Lower then that and you are accelerating. This is for the A model, the B/D might actually have a bit higher sustained alpha capability. But, in either version, once you go above 25-30 units, you will bleed fast (and possibly generate lots of buffet in the process).

[+EricJ 3,937]

Ahh I see now, so basically unlearn what I've learned with the Super Hornet...

[cougar_1979 37]

In a way yes. It's one of the last old fashioned "hands-on" planes. You fly it yourself with minimum help from the flight computer. So the plane does allow you to mess up, unlike the more modern fly by wire birds. But, it is exaclty this ability to do things you should not (under normal circumstances) that allows some unique flying properties under extreme conditions.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Gotcha, will see what I can do then.

[saisran 84]

I decided to test the Gripen last night and see how it behaves in the AI's hands. I flew about 1/2 a dozen hops and won every single one of them, but almost none to my satisfaction. In essence, i keept in defensive until it went out of burner (i would assume because it hit bingo fuel) and then i would shot it down easily.  But there was something familiar about all these fights and i decided to fly against a Mirage 2000 once again (the hardest fight i ever had in an F-14A so far).... et voila! The fight was very similar. In fact the Gripen acts somewhere between Rafale and Mirage, however it is not nearly as overpowered as the Rafale, and it never slows down. In fact, the AI uses the  Gripen like it uses the Mirage (the M2000 never bleads bellow 300KIAS) only the minimum airspeed it is willing to go to is up in the 350-360KIAS. The only instance in which i have seen it break bellow is when trying to take a shot at you.

 

This makes most of the fights endurance fights. The AI will stay in the Gripen's "goldylock" (350-400KIAS) indefinitely because it won't black out and trying to get a shot in a horizontal fight will be very hard. Do not take any missiles in the fight if you decide to turn and burn with it. You will never get enough lead for them this way. It is possible to trick him into taking a shot at you (thus slowing down), after which you can take the vertical (if you haven't spent your energy already), climb over him and get enough separation to fire an all aspect heat seaking missile at a relatively low energy bandit.

 

But, if you want to fight him in one plane the only way to down him is with guns and even then you are almost certain to need a high defelction shot (like 9 times out of 10). Because the AI won't bleed and won't blackout, you will once again have to time your offensive pulls wisely and always keep at least 50 knots above your best sustained airspeed as reserve. Note that i fought all the fights starting with full internal fuel and at the moments the Gripen went bingo i was usually just above 6000lbs. Also worthy of note is that if you face him with 10000 or less lbs from the stat it is actually a very easy target. In fact the F-14A dogfights very well on half internal fuel.

 

This is the final hop, which i flew after the M2000 re evaluation fight. It's farely borning endurance fight and just like my old M2000 encounter it ends up with a high deflection gun kill. At the end of the fight i have between 9-10000lbs of fuel left. The general directions are:

-keep your energy up

-keep the pressure on the bandit (but don't expect it to bleed)

-line up your shots using rudder and aileron inputs way before you actually take the shot

-don't go for a shot at all costs (i.e. if you need to bleed from 350 to 290 just to get a 0.1-0.5s snap shot window, don't do it, let him go and repeat the procedure after you unload)

 

Ihope this helps guys:

 

This is basically the safest strategy to beat these Daltas. Though i tend to try and not get caught up in the endless carousels as it gets boring for a long time. And sometimes. The AI keeps burning the Burner at 0.0 lbs of fuel which is cheating. :)

 

 

@EricJ - Good Kill. 

[cougar_1979 37]

This is basically the safest strategy to beat these Daltas. Though i tend to try and not get caught up in the endless carousels as it gets boring for a long time. And sometimes. The AI keeps burning the Burner at 0.0 lbs of fuel which is cheating. :)

 

 

@EricJ - Good Kill. 

You've had a case of them flying with zero fuel?! Now that's a whole new level of AI cheat!

Edited June 7, 2015 by cougar_1979

[saisran 84]

Lets go retro. 

 

FJ-3M Fury vs 2 Mig15

 

Started with the migs below 1k ft nose on my left and me at about 5k. Turned into the fight. they were crusing at below kias. My Fury in Full power racing up towards the pair and past the farthest mig. I went in and dove on it. I fugure the other mig had to turn around while building altitude and speed. I should have at least half a minute to dispatched the first bandit. Missed on the first dive, absolutely poor estimate and positioning. Went up again and follow though with a complete loop, adjusted to the bandit a couple of misses and bit of adjustment... splash one. At this point the Second bandit has already been able to build energy to match the Fury. (guess he was already building when i went for the farthest mig,

 

i cut 3 mins off the video as it mainly consist of my flying in a straight line trying to extend so that i can meet the mig head on with an energy advantage and a long boring circle. I pulling hard and nose low i was able to get a rough firing solution which ended with a miss and an overshoot. I went up in to the vertical the mig followed and we did a couple of vertical circles. At one point i allowed my airspeed to drop below 215 kias and i almost went into a spin. By the time i was able to recover it was now a two circle fight. after a couple of mergers i was able to get nose on the mig first and this time my rounds were able to connect. Splash TWO! mission complete.

 

 

Takeaways: the FJ-3M's Flight model is a bit more sluggish compared to the F-86's FM. This is a plane that will hurt you if you yank hard on the stick and be foolish with the rudder. n the past I had inadvertently placed the jet in a spin trying to get a gun solution well over 250 Kias. and maneuvers below 215 kias is not recommended without flaps, and since it doesn't deploy until well into 160 kias you can hardly make use of it.

 

F-86E vs MirageIIIC

 

 

 

Just took this fight to check how the F-86's FM handles compared to the fury. It was a pretty straight forward fight. Merge, a couple of circle and use of the vertical. I made a point to ensure that im always above the Mirage as i was concerned about its high alpha and afterburner. As it turns out i was able to out turn the Mirage easily and the afterburner didnt made much of the difference as i was carrying a lot of energy into the fight.  Got into the mirage six and set out a burst. he dropped altitude but kept on flying so i dove back in to finish it off. 20+rounds of 50 cal damaged the mirage and a further 80+ destroyed it.

 

Take aways. The stall eveloped is roughly the same as with the fury and the saber, but the saber handles lighter and smoother. All in all it was probably the weight penalty of the carrier gear that made the fury felt more sluggish. Shooting them 6 machine guns was a nice deviation the vulcan.

 

 

@Cougar - yup experienced it against a TW Mig-21. Which i was chasing with an F-8. the F-8 was suddenly out of fuel. Debug reveal that the 21 was also out, but was still in afterburner.

Edited June 7, 2015 by saisran

[+EricJ 3,937]

This is basically the safest strategy to beat these Daltas. Though i tend to try and not get caught up in the endless carousels as it gets boring for a long time. And sometimes. The AI keeps burning the Burner at 0.0 lbs of fuel which is cheating. :)

 

 

@EricJ - Good Kill. 

 

Thanks, takes a bit more time but it's good to learn something new.

Edited June 7, 2015 by EricJ

[cougar_1979 37]

@Saisran; man, you really do handle the F-86 most skillfully. Are you flying it often?

For this hop, i decided to wrap up the Gripen engagement, by going at it with SRAMs. After all, engaging guns only is not a very realistic scenario on one hand, and on the ohter, once to "fair" evaluation has been established, i consider the "full ACM" should be much more interesting.

So, as i was about to bring along heat seaking missiles with me (in this case "Mikes") and the bandit would be equiped with watever air to air load is available to it, i have to major objectives. The first one is of course, surviving the merge. I have described my prefered method of doing this before so i'm not going to go into much details. Sufice to say, the Gripen has radar missiles in this configuration, so am counting on both jamming and beaming to get withing visual range and then on military power and flairs to survive his SRAM barage.

The second objective is much more complex and it involves shoting the guy with a missle. In order to do so with an all aspect SRAM, there are several conditions that need to met (not all of them at once, but at least two would do the trick):
- keep a long enough tracking trajectory and lead for the seaker to find its target and the missile to intercept it;
- provide enough separation for the missile to have the time to come off the rail, track, maneuver and intercept the bandit;
- minimize lateral displacement of the bandit relative to the plane, to avoid missile blond spot and maneuvering limits;
- assure favorable aspect, so that countermeasure effectiveness will be at minimum (i.e. full frontal or full rear aspect);
- make sure to have clear unobstructed LOS and no ambiental noise for the seaker;
- and lastly, provide for as much boost to missile kinematics, by having as much energy advantage as possible (either altitude or air speed).

From the previous hop it becomes apparent that the Gripen won't allow us a long enough tracking trajectory (staying in a high G sustained turn indefinitely), so the first method is almost right out. What we are left with is a combination of the other methods. The first and most important of these (in absence of the tracking solution) is the separation. Our missile will never have the chance to track or maneuver if the bandit is much less then a nautical mile from us. But how to provide such separation? One way is of course, pushing for a 2 circle fight. Unlike the once circle method that will lead to "hugging" and potential skissors, a 2 circle method will resault with larger separation and potentially a clear all aspect shot. However, for this to work, we need to complete our own circle faster then the bandit and with enough distance between us. The Gripen being a small hard turning plane is not likely to allow for this to happen. So we need something to give us the edge. If we can get him to turn with us, but we manage out energy wisely and convert the fight from horizontal 2 turns to vertical 2 turns, we can use the F-14's superior lift to drag properties to both complete our turn faster and possibly get a good clear look-up shot at the enemy as it recovers the pull up. Alternatively, if we end up above the enemy, we can give our missile the extra energy to maneuver, thus automaticly reaching at least two of our objectives. Now that we have a general strategy, here is the flight:

We start by being locked by the bandit. To counter it we engage ECM, and try to beam as much as possible while building up airspeed as much as possible. We manage to get within visual range without being shot by radar missiles. However we do get fired twise with heat seakers which we manage to avoid with counter measures and some maneuvering. Note that i did try to come out of burner to decrease my IR signature, but the engine did not respond fast enough.

After the merge we engage the bandit in a left turn, trying to threaten him with an early nose on. We complete our circle first and do get a good tone and nose position, however the closure is too high and the missile fails. We have however build up a lot of airspeed and as the bandit streaks by us, i decide to take us into the vertical and see if i can get that vertical separation i mentioned earlier. It's a no go this time, as the Gripen has enough energy to follow me up and we end up neutral, with him taking some gun snap shots at me. I let him pass me, contune my dive and then reverse my turn. My line of thinking is, the dive has let me build enough separation and him climbing has made him a good target across the cold sky. I use up my energy and pull up, getting a good nice sight (and tone) on the bandit. Fox 2 again. He lauches some flairs but the missile guides well and explides just behind him. I wait to see what damage has been done to the Gripen as he glides down, but the aggressive manuver (and climb) has beld me out of energy........ and on top of that, the Gripen seams untouched. As i can't sustain a good turning rate while this slow and unloading to accelerate would take forever (maybe long enough for the bandit to reverse the tables), i roll into a dive and start performing a split S. The dive has given me enough separation again, but this time the Gripen is already in a dive, so i don't get a good firing postion. I do get a good energy boost and an over the top position (which the F-14 favors) however. I use it to once again change the plane of engagement, this time from a vertical to left horizontal turn. The Griper driver has been busy himself however and is almost on my 6 bu now. I engage a downward spiral to the deck and use the traded altitude for veolcity to present as myself as as hard a target to get a lead on as possible. It works like a charm and we not just shake him, but bleading some extra knots, actually get a nose on first once more. As he passes us on our left i put the Tomcat in a hard left turn, sustaining my best turn rate and getting the Gripen in my sights. I do not fire however, as i don't think the missile has a good chance, besides the favorable aspect. I am proven correct, as the bandit suddenly goes into a hard break. The break leaves him both slow and up in the sky as i follow him in a shallow dispacement roll. I fire my third FOX 2 and this gets spoofed with even less flairs then the first 2. During all these shots i do notice that my radar did not get a single lock on the target. So being a superstitious guy that i am (like most aviators), i recycle my radar modes and re engage the bandit. I perform a quick break to see of getting my nose on him will allow the radar to aquire a lock and it's a success! I let him pass, unload and re engage once again. We do close in on his tail, but i know where that chase leads. Wanting the save the tax payer's money some JP fuel, i reverse once more. This puts us in the same circle, but allows me a good paralel bearing  on the merge, so i can engage the vertical once again. I complete the circle first for the third time and we are on top of him. I get a good tone and i fire off the last Mike this time with 3 conditions met. Energy advantage, minimum (but just enough separation) and a favorable aspect. The missile finally connects and the Gripen's climb out is cut short by a smoky death spiral.

Takeaways: besides the above described strategy..... well..... the Tomcat is a very good vertical turning machine, as long as you don't bleed it out too soon. Having a superior lift curve does help completing your turns faster and tighter (especially in a vertical) and having a favorable lift to drag ratio, allows you to recover energy fast in a dive and sustain it superbly in a turn. Never go nose to nose with someone who can out point you. I hope you guys like this, it got me almost an hour to write it all up, and one more to upload the vid, but for me, it was well worth it. One of the most intense 1 on 1 fights in which i did not got shot   

[+EricJ 3,937]

Nice article and nice fight man.  I'll take on the Gripen in the Super Bug (haven't flown it in awhie anyway) and see how that goes...

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F/A-18F Blcok II EPE with 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120, tank, gun

Opposition: Gripen C, with 4 x AIM-120A, gun, tank

 

And there you go.  With a more modern aircraft (rolled too much at the start, getting back into the flow there) but overall it was fairly easy to match the Gripen's maneuvers and "Death Ray" it with a 9X. OVerall though the point is that with an aircraft that can match it's turns (and after the Rafale, things get easier) and still prevail in the fight.  Which is not to say that the Gripen isn't a competent fighter (it is) but overall other than working off the rust it was fairly easy and as you saw, quick too.  And pretty much sums up that regardless your aircraft type being aggressive is also necessary.  Had I gotten too lulled i could have been easily shot down and that would have been that.  Now to get with the Tomcat a bit more.  And apparently the game won't load the Gripen (CZ was chosen) so given it's slight timidness it was working for more of a guns kill than more or less an AAM kill, though given that it played for keeps makes it fair to me.

[cougar_1979 37]

.....  Which is not to say that the Gripen isn't a competent fighter (it is) but overall other than working off the rust it was fairly easy and as you saw, quick too.  And pretty much sums up that regardless your aircraft type being aggressive is also necessary.  Had I gotten too lulled i could have been easily shot down and that would have been that.  Now to get with the Tomcat a bit more.  And apparently the game won't load the Gripen (CZ was chosen) so given it's slight timidness it was working for more of a guns kill than more or less an AAM kill, though given that it played for keeps makes it fair to me.

Qucik and efficient.

If the bandit refuses to play aggressive, try flying right right infront of him and after he engages you, reaquire him. Sometimes they do act passive for some reason. :)

Edited June 8, 2015 by cougar_1979

[saisran 84]

@Cougar - Thanks. glad to know that I had improved a bit. Trust me I still have more losses to win ratio with the sabers. I had more time in the Fj variant so the 86 is a lot easier for me to fly. also really good write up. one of the clearest and detailed report I've read so far. nice!

 

@Eric - you didn't even gave it a chance. After we slave against it in our fights you just went ahead and killed it like it was nothing. That does it I'm bringing sealed phoenix next time. haha.

[+EricJ 3,937]

@cougar_1979: Yeah I could have but he was already ahead so had no choice.

 

@saisran: Lol yeah I could have splashed it while it was taking offf, or with one of my AMRAAMs.  I'll maybe do one with the Tomcat, or I'll try the Gripen-E that I have (forgot where I got it) to make it more fair I guess....

Edited June 8, 2015 by EricJ

[saisran 84]

@cougar_1979: Yeah I could have but he was already ahead so had no choice.

 

@saisran: Lol yeah I could have splashed it while it was taking offf, or with one of my AMRAAMs.  I'll maybe do one with the Tomcat, or I'll try the Gripen-E that I have (forgot where I got it) to make it more fair I guess....

Could you try the Grippen E? Chances are we hae the same model but the Grippen E i have bleeds energy too much and too fast and is a handful at slows speeds. In Ai hands it becomes a sitting duck as the AI tries hard to throw the nose of the grippen around in a 180 which bleeds off all its energy. If your in a jet with good low speed handling or good vertical performance its easy prey, and an AIM-9X will have a stationary target practice. Do tell if you find the same experience as i do. Thanks.

Edited June 8, 2015 by saisran

[+EricJ 3,937]

As far as flying it? Yeah I can take it for a spin and see.

[cougar_1979 37]

Could you try the Grippen E? .

I'd like yo see that one too

 

 

 

@Cougar - Thanks. glad to know that I had improved a bit. Trust me I still have more losses to win ratio with the sabers. I had more time in the Fj variant so the 86 is a lot easier for me to fly. also really good write up. one of the clearest and detailed report I've read so far. nice!

 

@Eric - you didn't even gave it a chance. After we slave against it in our fights you just went ahead and killed it like it was nothing. That does it I'm bringing sealed phoenix next time. haha.

Thanks mate! I was preparing for it this time, both theoretically and in practice

I think i may have taken the entire thing a bit too seriously

Edited June 8, 2015 by cougar_1979

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120D, gun, tank

Opposition: Gripen "E" w/ 4 x AIM-120A, gun, tank

 

No video

 

Decided to take it on rather than flying it first.  Honestly saisran I'm not sure what version you have but it seemed to have a lof of spunk and energy circled me quite a bit.  It also hit me good with it's gun before I nailed it with a 9X. So even wihtout short range AAMs the thing is tenacious and seemed to not be docile (with me at least).  While short overall it did maneuver quite well and pushed quite hard and had to nose into it (not something I prefer as it gets you setup for a missle, or a gun kill, or in this case, shot up pretty good but I managed to last and he leveled out and I pumped a 9X off-boresight, and in my annoyance fired another one, where probably the first one was already going to intercept, or both sturck (didn't look at the Log afterwards)  but regardless after part of my wing broke off somehow, I ejected.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me; JAS-39 "Gripen-E" with 4 x IRIS-T, gun, tank

Opposition: F-22A Raptor w/AIM-9xs at least

 

Started off above him and for the most part I need to recheck my IRIS-Ts and see whats up with that... Anyway I'm again not sure what version you have saisran but overall I was able to handle the Raptor with some ease I might add as I turned quite well with the Raptor... but the major thing I noted was I blacked out way too easy (or the settings need to be tweaked) but getting my nose or executing HOBS shots was pretty easy though in the end the Raptor got into position and smoked me hard with a 9X.  I'll upload video later on but overall there's no any problems handling the airxraft other than the g blackout issue and lack of 3D model for the IRIS-Ts.

 

And no problem either.

Edited June 8, 2015 by EricJ

[+EricJ 3,937]

And the companion video to the above:

 

[cougar_1979 37]

 While short overall it did maneuver quite well and pushed quite hard and had to nose into it (not something I prefer as it gets you setup for a missle, or a gun kill, or in this case, shot up pretty good but I managed to last and he leveled out and I pumped a 9X off-boresight, and in my annoyance fired another one, where probably the first one was already going to intercept, or both sturck (didn't look at the Log afterwards)  but regardless after part of my wing broke off somehow, I ejected.

Now that must have been intense!

 

Good fight with the Raptor too. I agree with your assesment of the Gripen. I must point out that i flew against the C model, but even that seamed quite nimble and energy capable little bird. I am yet to fly with it and i don't have a Raptor in my install, but in your video it shows good turning capability.

 

On those blackouts. What is the difficulty setting you are using for them? I used to fly on the harders, but when test flying i noticed my virtual pilot started to grayout at only 4g and complete instant blackout at 6g, so i  changed it to medium. Now he grays out at 6g and blacks out at 7.5-8g. Still a bit low IMO (for a trained fighter pilot) but it does make things more interesting then the hardest mode, when you basicly need to fly in streight lines....

[+EricJ 3,937]

I set my blackout at Normal, so I think what I need to do is add that tweak that Fubar512 came up with and see if that fixes the problem.  If so then I can probably get a kill against the Raptor at least.  There's the structural limit of the aircraft and then there is the limit of the pilot and for the Super Hornets I adjusted for 9G (average for a trained fighter pilot) even though the airframe is rated lower as if I jerk the stcik hard enough I'll blackout if I stuck with that.

[Caesar 305]

Lots of Gripen fights, I see!  Think the last time I took the Gripen on in a guns-only fight it took about 10 minutes (was a few months back in an F-14D), though I'm pretty sure the AI was actually out of fuel well before then.  One of the more difficult aspects I remember is that the thing was small.  I had several shots on it and they just weren't connecting.  Haven't faced it with missiles, but then, I don't really like to; I get tempted to go max-g at the merge and splash the bandit in 25 seconds for fear that he might put a missile in my direction...not really fun IMO.

 

Either way, good to see the reports rollin' in!