Olham 164 Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) As I heard repeatedly, the sim "Cliffs of Dover" (CoD) was not or hardly just playable for many simmers. A main reason seemed to be too much detail, and all that presented with the latest graphic effects. The evolution of PCs seemed to have been slower than the makers of CoD had once assumed, when they started building all this detail and eyecandy. That made me wonder and think about the following; those are my thoughts, and I'll be glad, if anyone can add some knowledge. Also please feel invited to correct me, where I'm wrong. It seems to me, that the two best WW1 sims follow different ways, to achieve different goals altogether. 'The other sim' puts all on the modern, realistic look; and a rather easy way for online multiplayers. It's latest graphic effects quality seems to use up so much CPU and GPU performance though, that it is not able (or not reasonable) to provide the player with the amounts of aircraft underway, that would have been there in real life. This means, there are no aircraft around anywhere, except the ones spawned for the player's mission. Nothing bad with that; seems it's just a limitation that had to be made, to be able to provide the player with the most modern graphic effects. OBD had said some time ago, that they will stay with the CFS3 engine, because it offered them all they wanted to accomplish; and that possibly 100 planes could be in the air (if I remember that right). Not all in one encounter, but in the whole area - nevertheless really there; you can fly away from your way- points, and you could meet them. This huge amount of aircraft could, I guess, not be produced, if they had all the latest graphic effects, like glosses and reflections etc. - the most players' rigs would simply fail to generate all that. Now OFF was meant to be as close as it can get to the real historical events, as they were back in 1915 - 1918 - no less. That is a very different, a historical approach to the subject of simulating the whole of WW1 aviation. At the momentary point, both these ways merged together would not be possible to generate, I guess, and it may not be possible for a longer time - if ever. That is why I don't see these two sims as real competitors. They do not compete, because they each produce and represent a different field - both absolutely with their own rights and advantages. And I as I see it, none of them could ever fully reach the others hallmarks. As an enthusiast of WW1 aviation, I own both of them, for the above reasons. I have largely stopped buying every game I see here and there; I pick them very carefully nowadays. But for everyone who is really interested in the history of the Great War aviation and all the detail with it, OVER FLANDERS FIELDS is definitely an absolute "must have". Sincerely. Edited December 20, 2011 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted December 20, 2011 I agree Olham...they are very different. Much as I enjoy knocking 'The Other Sim....one cannot argue, the DM and flight models are pretty damn good....and OFF wins habds down on Immersion, historical accuracy, aircraft and campaign....though set in the same Arena...two totally different sims Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasse Wind 46 Posted December 20, 2011 I agree. And there's always room for more than a one flight sim in my PC. They all complement each other. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
almccoyjr 7 Posted December 20, 2011 In regards to "CoD" or "CLoD", it wasn't the graphics or detail, but the base code that made it virtually unplayable when released. When a game won't even run properly when dropped into a virtual drive, there's something atrociously wrong with how the game is coded. The initial release was more a pre-alpha than a "baked" product. Since its release, much effort has gone into re-writing much of the code and it now seems playable even on "medium" performance pc's when setup options are taken into account. That's what makes OBD such a good gaming investment. It's nicely developed before release and just gets better with incremental software/hardware updates. It's thoroughly enjoyable and engrossing from the very start on many pc configurations. plug_nickel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bullethead 12 Posted December 20, 2011 All flightsims need a good DM, a good FM, and at least decent graphics by contemporary standards. If you're making a game primarily intended for online play, you can pretty much stop at this point because the players themselves fill the roles of other game features. OTOH, if you're making a primarily offline game, then you also need a very good AI and campaign system because there are no other people involved to fill these roles for the one player. AIs that can do proper ACM and dynamic campaigns take an awful lot of work. Thus, ever since the invention of online gaming, most devs have taken the easy way out and gone that way. This started even back when you could only have 2-4 players in MP. And due to the limited number of planes, the devs could jack up the graphics as a selling point, even though there technically was no gameplay at all: zero offline and so little online that there was no point in it. Meanwhile, FPS games were taking off because they could be made by a few kids in their garage--no flight dynamics knowledge required, no real AI needed, and having only 2-4 players online was actually fun. So, given a choice between piss-poor flightsims and good FPS games, the guess where the customers went? That's why we don't have many flightsims to choose from these days. As to Cliffs of Dover, as I understand things, that abortion is the result of a publisher dictating release schedule to a developer. The devs had been working on it for many years but not with any real sense of urgency, so had they been left alone, it would have been several more years before it came out. But the publisher got tired of this and imposed a quick release date, forcing the devs to scramble to get a half-baked product out in the short time allowed. So naturally, a lot of planned features got cut and everything else wasn't near finished or tested. IOW, the initial release was WAY pre-alpha. I don't have "BoB the CloD" myself, but several of my friends do. They were in an IL-2 squad so were eagerly anticipating the release and are now most disappointed. They assure me that all the patches since release have been as unfinished and untested as the original game, creating almost as many new problems as solving old ones. The net result has been a general improvement but I'm told the game should still be considered a late alpha or early beta. And so, having struggled with it all this time, these guys have given up on it and are casting about for something else to play. Naturally, I've tried to steer them towards OFF but they like flying together so while 1 or 2 do OFF on the side, they're more interested in "the other sim". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lederhosen 7 Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) salute if only OFF had the graphics of ROF then we would have the ultimate WW1 sim. On another note, I flew in a ROF Campaign server with 75 pilots on saturday for 3 hrs. Just a little lag once but other than that it ran quite well. Now that keeps you on your toes the whole time! exhausting. Led Edited December 20, 2011 by lederhosen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carrick58 23 Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) I have to disagree with Bullethead about BoB II . As it was released , It was Buggie, ( in fact , I threw it in my closet) but Modders have worked on patches to correct and make it a playable game. In addition, They are currently making another mod for for it ( Ref: Forum over at Sim Hq.) . The game is still not as playable as OFF but Modders are still working to smooth it out. Otherwise , I agree with BulletHead 's statement Cliffs of Dover: I don't have that game because u need a Steam account to play. Plus, It needs a lot of work by developers and Modders that care about the subject matter and the final product. Maybe in a few years. The Other WWI Flight Sim: I have it for the Eye Candy and play it once in awhile ( Kinda like watching women ) However, the Campaign is nothing to speak of, and the Multi player brings questions to mind. For example, A Camel uses its wings to break apart another a/c 's wings then flys on. , Or an Albatros D-5 using its wheels to destroy the top wings of an enemy and flys on and lands with no problems. Perhaps because there's no real penalty for Ramming , U get rammed a lot. Granted no big things but enough to @#%% u off. Just my 2 Cents worth. Olham: I am in agreement with Olham's statement about OFF. It is a Must Have WWI Flight Sim Edited December 20, 2011 by carrick58 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Polovski 460 Posted December 20, 2011 Thanks Olham I'm not commenting on the thread except to just correct a feature mentioned; OFF currently can have 226 aircraft in the air at once all doing their own missions, which is easily scalable and expandable. Also guys want to say stay civil don't get into a this sim versus that sim argument please, all have their merits, and it's a very hard job to make a good one for sure with little reward. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bullethead 12 Posted December 20, 2011 I have to disagree with Bullethead about BoB II . As it was released , It was Buggie, ( in fact , I threw it in my closet) but Modders have worked on patches to correct and make it a playable game. In addition, They are currently making another mod for for it ( Ref: Forum over at Sim Hq.) . The game is still not as playable as OFF but Modders are still working to smooth it out. Otherwise , I agree with BulletHead 's statement For the record, I didn't say anything about BoB II and know nothing about it. I just said "BoB the CloD" as a sort of joke name for CoD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted December 20, 2011 OFF currently can have 226 aircraft in the air at once all doing their own missions, which is easily scalable and expandable. Damn - and I had thought, a hundred planes were a helluvalot!!! Twohundred-twentysix?!?!? (Faints...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted December 20, 2011 I think we will manage to keep it civil Pol...especially, as I am now a 'slight' fan of RoF... I bought CoD from Steam...and could not believe how awful it was!.....Never liked BoB either...yes, lots of planes in the air...but never grew on me (sorry)...that said, how can anyone possibly have a bad word to say about Modders? (not that anyone has of course)....these guys transform our experience of all games!...I am gobsmaked by the work they do (mostly for free!)..... The total War games....transformed!...incredible!....the mods you can get for those....I'm speechless!....FSX / Fs9...again!.....thousands of addons!...more than you could download in a lifetime!...incredible!....What OFF have done to CFS3?.....I cannot even make cheap, with heavy handed words!....Life-Changing!!...... I have no idea how they do it...how any of the modders do what they do!....I feel sometimes, like a person at Wylam railway station, watching George Stephenson's Rocket....or to stand and see Wilbur and Orvile take that first flight!...you know it's being done...but you're buggered if you know how! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+elephant 36 Posted December 21, 2011 I have, played and modded myself all the above mentioned sims... I agree totally with Bullethead about CloD, still waiting for the magic patch that will enhance the code and get this thing playable! Down low it's incredible, graphically, even in mid settings in my laptop, but I'm not yet convinced at mid-higher altitudes... Anyway I consider it still beta... About RoF now... As many of you may know, I have jumped to OFF from RoF, (kind of unusual). I was missing something in RoF, but... the sense of flight it creates is still unmatched by any other sim I've flown. When the engine is on, you can feel the vibrations and I don't have a FF stick. Also the engine management is more complex... I can overheat, overcool or overrev my engine, if I screw up. In my first OFF missions I watched my fellow Albatros squadmates diving like Stukas on the enemy down low! This cannot be done in RoF! Even the AI Albatros are using a spiralling descent manoeuvre... The official Career mod is still beta, so I won't comment, but modders can make miracles, sometimes, you know Widow. Pat Wilson, coming straight from RB3D, has developed a Campaign generator, featuring things that OFF Manager still cannot do in P3... like 'fleshy' squadmates that progress and develop throughout the Campaign. (amase victories, upgrade in skill, being promoted-decorated, accordingly) It can plot and generate many many flights simultaneously, each one with it's own goal, (not necessarily related to the player's mission), only they spawn when in a certain distance from the player, to save resources. I don't find anything wrong with that, Olham, it's a feature! Lately, after my petition, has even introduced a claim system for victories... In addition with enhanced AI mods makes the RoF Campaign experience, leaning towards OFF's one. Still, however beautiful RoF's World can be, it's plain sterile comparing to OFF's one. In other words I can't wait for P4! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) ... they spawn when in a certain distance from the player, to save resources. I don't find anything wrong with that, Olham, it's a feature! Well - that's what I said. I wrote: ...there are no aircraft around anywhere, except the ones spawned for the player's mission. Nothing bad with that; seems it's just a limitation that had to be made, to be able to provide the player with the most modern graphic effects. But it does feel wrong to me, when the squad mate, who landed before me, disappears after some seconds like a miraculous wizzard - zapp! - gone. Or when I KNOW, that there won't be any other aircraft underway anywhere else, when I fly my Lone Wolf patrol and decide to change waypoints. Just not the same immersion. But this is going in a direction I did not intend, when I wrote the above. I wanted to speculate about the different ways a sim can be built, and what restrictions this may bring about for each of these ways - that you can't have all the plus points merged together in one sim - not yet; and maybe not for a longer time in future. No sim-bashing intended; no sim-defending necessary, honestly. . Edited December 21, 2011 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellshade 110 Posted December 21, 2011 Cliffs of Dover wasn't unplaybale (or nearly so) at launch because there was too much detail. The issue was there was too much detail for a sim written NOT to take advantage of multicore CPUs. A fix for that has either been implemented or is underway, I hear. I don't own the sim but I have read that that was one of the main problems with it's low frame rate. I enjoy both WW1 flight sims but for very different reasons as have been mentioned above. FM / DM vs # of planes in the sky (and how they get there and where they are going) along with number of objects on the ground, etc. Personally, I'm glad the Devs chose two very different approaches. In the end, it gives me the consumer more choices and option on how I want to experience WW1 air combat in a sim. Hellshade Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+elephant 36 Posted December 21, 2011 Oh, Olham! Squadmate landings is not the strong point of both sims! The after landing disappearance in that 'ghost' aerodromes, is most frustrating in RoF! In OFF P3, squadmates cannot even land properly... Again, you are wrong about the empty skies... In Pat Wilson's Campaign both enemy and friendly flights are generated, each one with their own mission. The player can go anywhere and still encounter enemy or friendly flights conducting their missions, as in OFF, the only difference is that the most distant ones are not spawn till the player is at a certain radius from them. Anyway, OFF for immersion, RoF for the flying experience for me... Still prefer the highly modded version of old IL-2, over the graphically superb, but problematic CloD... and can't wait for OFF Phase4 to be released... A new preview video maybe? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted December 21, 2011 In OFF P3, squadmates cannot even land properly... They can! They only don't always want to! But when they made a landing fine, and the following wingman doesn't crash into them, then you can see them taxiing, coming to a halt, and remaining visible and there with you - for as long as you don't quit, Sir! Seen that many times. In P4 they seem to be REALLY landing fine! Still prefer the highly modded version of old IL-2, over the graphically superb, but problematic CloD... I'll come back to the mods with the Pacific campaigns after Xmas - I just cannot really concentrate on it now. ...and can't wait for OFF Phase4 to be released... Customer: "And what about my cumquats?!?!" W.C.Fields: "Coming! Coming! I'll be with you in a minute, Sir!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OlPaint01 0 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) @Olham I was disappointed to discover that Herr Prop-Wasche's new FM mod does not address the 'crash landing squadmates' issue. I have been attempting to fly patrols lately a quiet sector (no dogfights) with TAC off and make a real effort to stay with my wingman from waypoint to waypoint. At the end of the sortie my flight-lead always carries us several klicks past our home aerodrome, reverses direction and then makes a standard approach, only to drill into the ground several hundred meters short. Moreover each of my mates follow him in like robots and crash almost at the exact same spot. I of course am able to finish by flying on to a normal landing. I wonder if Bletchley's Active/Quiet Mod files could be edited to adjust the home Aerodrome altitude to allow AI pilots to land without crashing? I am curious to know if you have heard whether OFF 2 will have a RTB command? And will AI squadmates land without clashing? OlPaint Edited December 21, 2011 by OlPaint01 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Winder 32 Posted December 21, 2011 @Olham I was disappointed to discover that Herr Prop-Wasche's new FM mod does not address the 'crash landing squadmates' issue. I have been attempting to fly patrols lately a quiet sector (no dogfights) with TAC off and make a real effort to stay with my wingman from waypoint to waypoint. At the end of the sortie my flight-lead always carries us several klicks past our home aerodrome, reverses direction and then makes a standard approach, only to drill into the ground several hundred meters short. Moreover each of my mates follow him in like robots and crash almost at the exact same spot. I of course am able to finish by flying on to a normal landing. I wonder if Bletchley's Active/Quiet Mod files could be edited to adjust the home Aerodrome altitude to allow AI pilots to land without crashing? I am curious to know if you have heard whether OFF 2 will have a RTB command? And will AI squadmates land without clashing? OlPaint They do...you can... they will.... WM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+elephant 36 Posted December 21, 2011 I have also seen them landing like train boxcars behind the FL at the 'drome's edge... The landing 'bug' seems to be addressed in Phase4 or OFF2, if you prefer. Watch the ending sequence of the preview video, I think it's revealed, there... Don't know anything about any RTB command, though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted December 21, 2011 RTB is "Return to base", I guess, and Winder answered all questions in his typical short "this all goes off the time I need for building OFF Phase4, guys!"-manner. But even if it will be history soon - when you are at an airfield that allows it better - like Bertincourt - you can see Halberstadt landing fine. And they don't even crash into each other. I don't promise it will always work, but when I was there in August or early September 1916, it did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
