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Hellshade

Herr Prop Wasche's Camel Anti-Stall "T" Mod Preview

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HPW is a liar...and thank God for it. smile!.gif

He told us that his latest version of the FM was his last, however he decided to take a look into the problem some of the AI planes have (Camels, Pfalz DIIIas, Alb DIIIs, etc) where they pull up and climb for so long that they just stall out at the top of the climb and hang there like a big "T" for a moment before falling backwards down towards the ground. The entire time they are doing this they make very easy pickings if you have any kind of gunnery skills at all. Most of us have seen it. You put a few rounds into the plane and it pulls up into a climb and stalls out. The whole time it is climbing and stalled out you pump rounds like mad into it and the enemy plane is destroyed without putting up much of a fight.

Well HPW sent me a test copy for Quick Combat only of mods for the Pfalz DIIIa and Sopwith Camel to try and address this problem. I tested out the Pfalz DIIIa first and got good results but to be fair, the problem still persists though to a lesser degree than before. He then sent me a test QC version for the Sopwith Camel and I just love it! Suddenly the Camel has become a very dangerous opponent because (in the 10 QC fights I tried against it) not a single Camel stalled out at the top of a climb, instead choosing to either level out it's flight or roll over while still maintaining good airspeed and continuing on it's flight path arcing gracefully towards the ground to pick up more energy again.

Usually I can best a flight of 6 Camels, even on Ace mode, in a Fokker DVIIF without too difficult of a time. No more! With HPWs test mod installed I only won 2 out the 10 fights I had against both full Ace and Random AI skill level Camels. With no easy targets to pick off it becomes much harder to keep track of all of them for longer and longer fights. The odds of getting in one of their crosshairs goes up and once you take enough damage, agility drops and more often than not it's only a matter of time before one of them finished me off. If you want to see them in action here is a preview movie of what I call HPWs Sopwith Camel Anti-Stall "T" mod. The Camels are set to random AI during this particular QC and I get lucky on a few of them up front but keep watching and see the difference in their attack patterns.

Video Preview of HPWs Anti-Stall "T" mod

Examples of Stalled "T" AI Camel Behavior without HPWs updated FM.

Hellshade

Edited by Hellshade

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Fantastic. Hopefully HPW will make two versions of his new Anti-stall FM. One for those who can use his EW mod and one for those of us who can not or do not want to use the EW mod.

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I read somewhere that the AI uses some kind of calculation based off of the MOI values (pitch??) in the cfg file. The AI will not perform a dive if it's MOI is too large for fear of crashing into the ground. My guess would be that the stalls are due to the plane's AI trying to climb and thus fight against its large MOI and weak engine power causing that prolonged stall in the air. However, I could be totally off.

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Fantastic video, Hellshade! Sorry about you going down in flames, however. :grin:

 

I really appreciate you doing this test combat flying--I don't have a lot of time to test under actual combat conditions. Good to see that the Camels are behaving a little better. As you said, I'm not sure how these FM changes might effect the human piloted aircraft. For some reason, the AI tends to fly better if the plane is a little more nose heavy than in the stock version. The possible drawback is that the plane may feel more sluggish to the human player. Therefore, I tried to keep the changes to the Camel and Pfalz very small.

 

Unless anyone has an objection, I'll release an update to FM 2.2 which includes the changes to the Pfalz and Camel within a few days.

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I read somewhere that the AI uses some kind of calculation based off of the MOI values (pitch??) in the cfg file. The AI will not perform a dive if it's MOI is too large for fear of crashing into the ground. My guess would be that the stalls are due to the plane's AI trying to climb and thus fight against its large MOI and weak engine power causing that prolonged stall in the air. However, I could be totally off.

 

I certainly couldn't say what he did, but at least with the Sopwith Camel it doesn't do it at all anymore. Too many of the planes, the moment they suffer some damage they start to pull up right away and they keep pulling up while you pump them full of easy to hit rounds. By the time they stall out, they are already dead or near enough so. Not anymore with the Sopwith Camels using HPWs mod. You would have to ask him what he changed, but I tell you that between your V2.0 DM and the anti-stall T mod, people would be getting a lot fewer kills per mission. I tell you my hands are full when I fly against a flight of Camels now. I literally am on the edge of my seat the entire fight because they are so much more difficult to kill than any other plane. I feel the fear and the respect for them and I love it!

 

I hope he is able to make a separate mod for each of the planes that does this behavior. It eliminated it with the Camel and reduced it with the Pfalz DIIIas, though it can still happen with them. I don't know what the difference between the two would be. Wiser minds than mine will have to figure out those numbers. Perhaps you could work with him on this too? Everyone may think I am over-playing the difference that it makes during the air to air combat but you will just have to try it out for yourself to see how much more challenging it truly makes the dogfighting.

 

Hellshade

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Fantastic video, Hellshade! Sorry about you going down in flames, however. :grin:

 

I really appreciate you doing this test combat flying--I don't have a lot of time to test under actual combat conditions. Good to see that the Camels are behaving a little better. As you said, I'm not sure how these FM changes might effect the human piloted aircraft. For some reason, the AI tends to fly better if the plane is a little more nose heavy than in the stock version. The possible drawback is that the plane may feel more sluggish to the human player. Therefore, I tried to keep the changes to the Camel and Pfalz very small.

 

Unless anyone has an objection, I'll release an update to FM 2.2 which includes the changes to the Pfalz and Camel within a few days.

 

I object! I have to agree that making the planes more nose heavy might turn off some of the players from flying them. I would heartily recommend that you release them as an AI FM patch where players install them simply to make the AI use those planes better, but if they didn't like what it did to the players experience of flying the plane they could always un-install it and fly with whatever FM they prefer.

 

Plus, I think you should add a little more weight to the Pfalz and see if you can kill the problem altogether like you did with the Sopwith Camel. While you are at it, if you have the time I think that the Albatros DIIIs are nearly as bad as Pfalz DIIIas at the Stall T behavior. Put a few rounds in them and up they go. Easy pickins, which they should not be.

 

Hellshade

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Objection sustained! Making the AI Camels an option sounds like a good idea.

 

I'll also see what I can do about the Pfalz and the Albs, although I already improved the Albs before--but that was before I knew as much about the FM as I (hopefully) do now.

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OFF has the best forum community of any sim. I swear it.

 

I can't wait to fly against the other modded planes. The war is about to get a whole lot harder! Thanks HPW!

 

Hellshade

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Problem with OFF is the same as any other combat flight sim, no matter how much you try to trim the AI planes and logic, it will never equal the thrill and challenge of flying online with and against other human pilots... specially when it comes with the handling of your wingmen !

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With HPWs test mod installed I only won 2 out the 10 fights I had against both full Ace and Random AI skill level Camels.

Absolutely amazing! It is actually possible to shoot Hellshade down. After watching his videos for the last few years here, I was convinced (mostly) that he is/was immortal. 'Love the first video. When the camera POV is in the cockpit, it's like writing in the first person; the pilot's voice adds depth to the encounter (even if it's stream-of-consciousness, and not directed to the viewer). Throw a little music behind all that, and you're Hollywood bound.

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Problem with OFF is the same as any other combat flight sim, no matter how much you try to trim the AI planes and logic, it will never equal the thrill and challenge of flying online with and against other human pilots... specially when it comes with the handling of your wingmen !

 

That's true. Conversely, the problem with other human pilots is it's sometimes tough to get hundreds of them in the air at once spread across a huge war front where ...no matter where you go in this huge open area...a flight of players is patrolling or on a bomb run. Other players can certainly be more challenging to shoot down (if they are good) but depending on them to be there when you want / need them can sometimes be a bit of a letdown. The solution has been for Devs to make a small area to fly in, resulting in a sort of frantic fight in a fishbowl. I found after awhile in another sim of doing that that it often felt like the same fights over and over again. No surprises. You knew who would be where, in what planes and generally what tactics they would use.

 

Certainly they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

Now if you could get a balanced sized area populated with both players and AI planes...THAT would be something exciting. Let the computer figure out where the skies are empty and start putting a few random flights in here and there to mess things up for everyone. ok.gif

 

Hellshade

 

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In the Flaming Eagles of War beta organized by the Italians in Rise of Flight, we managed to have 100 pilots in the air. Missions would be open for the whole afternoon and evening and each squadron had its home airfield.

The map was big enough so we could fly DFWs until the last drops of fuel which was over 2,5 hours flights (I remember doing a solo damage assessment reco flight which lasted 1h 45mns and didn't meet anyone) and despite the number of planes flying managed to have bombing missions with escorts without being bounced by more than 2 or 3 planes. It was really the best experience I had so far, the beta will be finished over the summer and I hope we can have serious things started in September ! Even on regular servers like The Syndicate, I make 1 hour high altitude patrols without seeing more than 2 or 3 planes and the maps are big enough that if you want to climb to reasonable altitudes it takes 15 + mins to get over the front line.

I agree that with no doubt OFF is the best solo experience I had so far in a flight sim ( together with Falcon 4.0 where you also have the feeling of a real war going around ) except that part about fighting AI planes. You also know after a while in advance what tactics they will use in combat and it becomes a bit boring to see them always do the same. Although on the other side they cheat by having a permanent 360° vision which often prevents surprise attacks... The sadistic joy of falling down from the sky in a Spad XIII on a poor guy who is reading his map to try and find his way...lol ( Less funny when it happens to you, which is also quite often )

 

I will keep both flying solo offline for the "war feeling" and historical depth and multi online in an organized group to get the best of both !

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