What's with the US and faulty avionics?

[GalmOne 1]

According to reports I've been reading, it seems that the US has been procuring faulty avionics since the Cold War. It also seems that upon upgrading these faulty systems, they don't test the newer ones either. One would think that a RWR and jammer would be of paramount importance in this day and age but why does the US military seem to not care about the quality of these avionics?

 

The examples that come to mind are the different versions of the ALQ-135 jammer system in the F-15C and the ALR-67 variants found in many Navy aircraft.

 

What leads the military to procure such equipment without testing them? In particular, I've read accounts of DoD reports stating that the ALR-67 could not interpret the difference between a hostile and a friendly emitter and that Desert Storm Navy pilots who flew Hornets and Tomcats sometimes completely shut off their ALR-67 RWR's and used "DoD-Classified" methods of safely operating in hostile airspace. I can't find enough credible evidence stating that such problems plagued all Hornet and Tomcat aircrews but I can see this as being a horrible issue. The ALQ-135, too, had failed tests carried out on it and did not live up to Air Force requirements.

 

I don't see why it would be hard for the Navy and Air Force to incorporate working jammers and RWR/RHAW equipment so that every US crew member can be safe.

[macelena 1,070]

EW is a b**ch, basically. I find it hard to believe that things were that bad, but it is a quite troublesome area.

[GalmOne 1]

Here is an excerpt from the ALR-67 report:

"As a result, the Navy installed the unsatisfactory system in

operational aircraft for use by the combat forces. Subsequently,

some Navy pilots during Operation Desert Storm distrusted the system

to the extent that they stopped using it to detect threat radars and

relied instead on other means that DOD considers classified. "

 

The links are here: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GAOREPORTS-NSIAD-96-68/html/GAOREPORTS-NSIAD-96-68.htm

and google books' link to a US GAO report : http://books.google.ca/books?id=syS19GF2CFMC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=%22ALR-67%22+problems&source=bl&ots=f8TnE16z2P&sig=CABAh9FXrUG-8mk6Z3y9kFN20gk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fEgcUazID-u00QGQ7YCwAw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=%22ALR-67%22%20problems&f=false

[CowboyTodd41 133]

It's what happens when the subcontractors who build the systems grossly inflate the projected lifespans of the systems so that when that their lowest bidder price seems like a great rather than "you get what you pay for" which is, of course, what's really happening. Also, a lot of aircraft use specialized ECM equipment specific to that airframe. I worked on the AN/ALQ-161 on the B-1B, and once they had stopped building the jets, they stopped manufacturing all of our parts as well. So we keep rebuilding the same avionics boxes over and over again. And that's not just the USAF, that's every country that has even a fairly modern air arm. We're the best equipped and we still do it.

 

This youtube video is pretty much the perfect explanation as to why this problem occurs.

[Slartibartfast 153]

Not just the US Military... I have seen it in the UK military as well... and it's not just in the things that fly but Ground based Radars SAM's even down to the basic infantry firearm in the UK the L85 was a piece of sh!t that fell apart as soon as you looked at it... I would have been happier to use the SLR even though it was 40 years old when I first played with it!!! Went from 7 moving parts in field stripping to 17!!!

[MigBuster 2,871]

Ha cool video

 

Another example from http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2012/pdf/navy/2012fa18ef.pdf

 

 

DOT&E reported on APG-79 radar IOT&E in FY07, assessing

it as not operationally effective or suitable due to significant

deficiencies in tactical performance, reliability, and BIT

functionality.

 

 

In the civilian world though no software gets sold in a finished state - no ones got the time or money to test it properly without going out of business - its far to complex for us humans.

 

The Eurofighter is seemingly no where near getting the avionics its supposed to - still should be used to that - wasnt the Lightning F6 stuck with the same crappy 1960s pulse radar till 86?

 

want to hazard a guess at when the F-35 will be in a working state :)

[+Gepard 10,624]

Not just the US Military... I have seen it in the UK military as well... and it's not just in the things that fly but Ground based Radars SAM's even down to the basic infantry firearm in the UK the L85 was a piece of sh!t that fell apart as soon as you looked at it... I would have been happier to use the SLR even though it was 40 years old when I first played with it!!! Went from 7 moving parts in field stripping to 17!!!

 

Same thing in Germany. The G36 assault rifle showed problems in Afghanistan. Became to hot while firing long bursts, with the danger of self ignition of the ammo, so the gun would fire till the magazin was empty.

They should have choosen weapons of the Wieger940 series. This were east german made Kalaschnikovs for NATO caliber 5,6x45mm. During a weapon show for peruvian costumers the marketing crew put one Wieger942 on concrete and drove with a W50 truck (vehicle with 5tons load capacity) over it. Then they took the weapon to the firing range and the Wieger942 worked very well.

After the political change the construction papers disappeared and now an US company builts a weapon called STG2000 which is a 100% copy of the Wieger940 series.

[JediMaster 451]

Because the best product rarely wins.

[GalmOne 1]

yes, now that you all mention it, it just sounds the same as any other company trying to release the best product first.

 

But if anyone has more in-depth reports on the ALR-67 RWR, that'd be great. I feel it's possible to find it, since it's just an outdated receiver which more than one plane used so I'll keep digging. I can't find any on the AL!-135, but I've been told jammer information is almost always completely classified.

[macelena 1,070]

Same thing in Germany. The G36 assault rifle showed problems in Afghanistan. Became to hot while firing long bursts, with the danger of self ignition of the ammo, so the gun would fire till the magazin was empty.

They should have choosen weapons of the Wieger940 series. This were east german made Kalaschnikovs for NATO caliber 5,6x45mm. During a weapon show for peruvian costumers the marketing crew put one Wieger942 on concrete and drove with a W50 truck (vehicle with 5tons load capacity) over it. Then they took the weapon to the firing range and the Wieger942 worked very well.

After the political change the construction papers disappeared and now an US company builts a weapon called STG2000 which is a 100% copy of the Wieger940 series.

 

It is weird, our army uses basically the same weapons (G36, MG4, MG3) as the heer, and the G36 is well liked. Perhaps those troubles are related to the MG36? They don´t use to fire fully automatic with assault rifles.

[+Gepard 10,624]

It is weird, our army uses basically the same weapons (G36, MG4, MG3) as the heer, and the G36 is well liked. Perhaps those troubles are related to the MG36? They don´t use to fire fully automatic with assault rifles.

Its the performance of the G36 in Afghanistan. The G36 is a nice weapon for the shooting range and it looks very cool. True.

But the field performance is not as good. Problems with the optics and the overheating problem during longer combats. If you fire only 30 rounds you will face no problems, but in a heavy fire exchange, how it happend in AFG, the G36 overheated.

Its a question of reliability. Okay, the G36 is much more reliable than the L85 of the brits or the M16 of the US Forces, but in comparision with the Wieger940 or original russian Kalaschnikows it will always lose.

 

 

 

Wieger941 and AK-74N _______________________________________________________ STG2000 by american copycats

 

 

 

 

destriped Wieger942 and KMS-72__________________________________________________________________________ destriped G36

Edited February 16, 2013 by Gepard

[GalmOne 1]

It's what happens when the subcontractors who build the systems grossly inflate the projected lifespans of the systems so that when that their lowest bidder price seems like a great rather than "you get what you pay for" which is, of course, what's really happening. Also, a lot of aircraft use specialized ECM equipment specific to that airframe. I worked on the AN/ALQ-161 on the B-1B, and once they had stopped building the jets, they stopped manufacturing all of our parts as well. So we keep rebuilding the same avionics boxes over and over again. And that's not just the USAF, that's every country that has even a fairly modern air arm. We're the best equipped and we still do it.

 

This youtube video is pretty much the perfect explanation as to why this problem occurs.

 

I finally found time to not do work, find some good wifi and watch this. Very funny! And educational too!

[shotdown 8]

It is weird, our army uses basically the same weapons (G36, MG4, MG3) as the heer, and the G36 is well liked. Perhaps those troubles are related to the MG36? They don´t use to fire fully automatic with assault rifles.

 

That's because we are Spain Macelena. With the minnimal amount of money our country expends in defence, I'm pretty sure our soldiers will run out of ammo before any overheatting problems come.

[macelena 1,070]

No problem, we borrow the Afghans. That´s why they got M16s instead of AKs