Carrier landings in SF2 Atlantic

[Leviathan1000 0]

Greetings to all forum members.

 

I just purchased the SF2 North Atlantic. Maybe the question I will place here has already been answered, please just redirect me to the right topic if yes, I just could not find it. 

 

I find it extremely hard to safely land on the carrier. Actually there are no visual aids to help. Many years back I used to play the Microprose Fleet Defender (and actually the reason I initially bought the SF2 Atlantic was the F14 and carrier operations)

 

On Fleet Defender, the carier deck was lit, and the meetball was active! You could easily confirm if you would have been in the glideslope or not. Also, you would actively "call the ball" and there would have been instruction from the deck for the aircraft's attitude; even a "wave-off" signal! Let alone that you had to wait for your turn to go for landing.

 

No such thing seems to exist in SF2. You just fly towards the deck tottally blind, and if you need to keep an eye on the trap, you actually go way too hard to the deck.

 

Am I missing something here? The manual does not have any info on that.

 

PS. After one more unsuccesfull attempt to land, I watched the AI controlled wingman landing.....the aircraft missed the trap and crashed into the sea! Yet, the "loss" was not registered in the debrief. Also, during the wingman landing attempt, another aircarft land virtually at the same time.

 

I find the game (at least as far as it concern the landing) way too poor and unrealistic. Maybe I am actually dong something wrong. Please help if possible.

 

Thanks

Edited September 21, 2013 by Leviathan1000

[turkeydriver 4]

I haven't seen an AI wingman miss the ship. Do you have any mods or is this the stock game? While you are pretty much 100% visual, if you follow the theory with an overhead approach and gentle break to 180 after passing the island, then 180 again about 3/4 a mile from the ship you should be fine. If you're crashing into the ship in the wires your sink rate is too high. F-14 will land safe from 140 knots, just don't drop it onto the deck with a huge sink rate. The F-4 is the easiest by far to land on the carrier as its very stable in the landing configuration with about 160kts airspeed. If you don't have a track IR you may want to practice landings using the outside view as your AoA can put your nose over the ship so you cant see it. The F-8 is a little more difficult, and the F-14 is just big and feels very heavy behind the boat. The A-7 is also easy to land on the ship.

List your step by step landing process and we'll help you get there. Be aware that being 10 knots too high can result in your aircraft being destroyed, your aircraft wont rip off its hook on snap a wire, but you will push your nose through the deck and be destroyed.

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

Your not missing anything mate, the default F-14's landing characteristics are P*** poor at best... damn thing blows up if you look at it the wrong way and as for the AI I've yet to encounter an AI bird in any Thirdwire game that lands realistically. There is an ILS system but thats about it for landing aids unless I'm missing something as well. I would kill to have functioning Fresnels but I very much doubt it will ever happen, the NA release would have been the time to do it if TK was going to bother.

 

Craig

[Leviathan1000 0]

Thank you both for your answers!

 

I am running the stock game, no mods whatsoever; I do not even know how to apply mods. I just found the forum and I will be doing some serious reading to install at least some more aircraft if possible (my favorite F4E for start).  

 

@TurkeyDriver; I do not follow any specific procedure actually....I line up with the carrier, lower gear and hook, flaps to "landing position", air speed at 140-150 Knots BUT I am trying to keep the deck in sight although. AoA approximately 10 deg if I can recall well. Still I am landing hard and indeed the nose smashes on the deck.

 

A question for the ILS (I mean the leftside arrows and circle lights that indicate glideslope); the lower one indicates that I am too low and should climb or I am too high and I should descent? I have this light (lower red arrow) lit all the time during landing...is it really operational, that one at least?

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

Thats actually for AOA, you want to keep the circle amber however it wont tell you if you're on glideslope or not. The amber light indicates optimal AOA for a given airspeed it will display this value regardless of your altitude, the ILS on the F-14 is located in the MFD possibly the hud as well, havn't flown it in months and can't remember. The AOA data combined with the ILS and ASI can give you a decent picture when you're quite far out but in close it holds no candle to a meatball.

 

Craig

[Leviathan1000 0]

Cheers Graig!

[MigBuster 2,884]

Landing has always been pretty much visual in SF for me.

 

The A-4 is probably the easiest to stick on deck IMO - to see the deck come in a bit higher.

 

For night - crikey I'm not sure if even the new carriers have lights - I gave up bothering at night.

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

Managed that a few times in F-14's and 18's back when the Desert Storm mod came out, lights off at about 02:00 real time... heart was pounding out my chest as I passed through about 400'... hell even in a Harrier its a wild ride just trying to find and line up with the ship at night.

 

Craig

[Z09SS 21]

One of the bitter ironies of this game is the publisher is named Third Wire...

 

For me it was a trial and error process.  Get the amber lit and then start making passes.  Going wide view then moving the view up until the dash is just barely in frame helps a lot with seeing what's going on.  When you figure out your sight picture, it gets pretty darn easy to trap.

[Boresight 51]

Hello Leviathan1000,

 

Landing on a carrier (even in computer sims), does take some skill, basic procedures knowledge and a lot of repeating.

 

Indeed, as you mention, the basic F-14 versions available at the stock game might miss some helpful symbols and the carrier ‘fresnels’ would also be of help if they existed. But with SF 2 : NA, things are not so bad.

(On other SF 2 series, I believe the F-4 Phantom II (your favourite) would give you an “headache” to land on carrier, because it has almost no 'HUD' symbology at all.)

 

I believe that to be more successful, you must:

 

1 – remember when landing, the flight path marker symbol (# 1 at picture), (velocity vector, call it what you want), tells you roughly where the aircraft will touch on the carrier;

 

2 – keep in mind that, you must correctly follow the last waypoints before the carrier, and you must select the HUD’s “caged mode”, otherwise the flight path marker won’t show up on the HUD;

 

3 – try to aim the flight path marker to the beginning/mid section of the carrier’s “runway”, and slightly to right to counter the offset between the runway and the carrier movement;

 

4 – the aircraft waterline symbol (# 2 at picture), which tells where the nose of the aircraft is pointed, should be roughly around 5 degrees at the pitch ladder;

 

5 – you may pull back on the stick to give the above mentioned 5 (or 10) degrees pitch, just 1 or 2 seconds before touching the runway, so your sink rate won’t be so high;

 

6 – remember that: the aircraft waterline symbol only tells you where the aircraft’s nose is pointed, and NOT where he’s going (again that’s what the flight path marker does);

 

7 - not let the airspeed get much bellow 150 Knots, because you will loose sight of the flight path marker – which is crucial to know where your aircraft is going.

 

Practice these procedures often (don’t fly all the time by the ILS needles, try to fly the flight path marker instead) and I believe you’ll improve your carrier landings.

 

Anyone, feel free to correct anything. Thank you.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Boresight

[macelena 1,070]

Maybe i´m more used to the Phantom, because i prefer it for carrier landing and combat, control wise, to the Tomcat. Just get used to it. About the F-14, it is indeed harder, despite the advanced HUD, but i would still rate it as harder to land than the F-4. That´s the same case as with A-7s and A-4s. However, the hardest aircraft to put on deck, without any doubt, be it a Kitty or an Essex, is the F-8. 

 

 

About wingmen missing the ship, i have an stock game, and i,ve seen many phantoms wich fail to catch the wire and keep rolling off the deck. And some of those weren´t even me, but AI planes.

Edited September 24, 2013 by macelena

[Boresight 51]

Hello Macelena,

 

You've choosen your words well, when you say you're more used to the Phantom.

And I understand you, because there's really something different in the way it glides through the air, comparing with the Tomcat.

 

I don't know for sure, but on the final aproach to the carrier, the Phantom seems more stable, less prone to oscilating and changes of flight path, something like that.

 

However, the first 2 or 3 times I landed a Phantomon on the carrier, it really felt highly awkward, because one get's no HUD ( combiner glass? ), symbolgy whatsoever besides the gunsight reticle.

( But all things compared I do still prefer the Tomcat, because of the instrumentation aid. )

 

Besides the airspeed, altitude, vertical speed, AoA gauges, etc does one get anyother devices/indicators to help?

Edited September 24, 2013 by Boresight

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

Just a matter of comfort really, if you're used to steam guages then the lack of a HUD really isn't that much of a handicap. As for the stability the f-4 had a reputation for going arond the circuit as if it were on rails... the F-14 not so much, as you said it can wildly oscilate throughout the aproach. One piece of advice I'd give to your guide above however is to come in slower, 150 knots is kinda hot for an F-14. Going by the manual 122-137 knots is more like it, also Navy birds do not flare on landing fly it onto the deck (good luck pulling this off and surviving with the default model however):)

 

Craig

[Boresight 51]

Thank you for your attention and advice Fallenphoenix.

 

For much I like the F-14 and other birds, there's a lot of things I don't know - like the fact that Navy birds do not flare on landing.

 

About the 150 knots final approach being a little high, I believe you're totally right, however like you mentioned, because the default model even with a "light" aircraft configuration the flight path marker starts to go out of the HUD, and you know the rest...

 

The excessive 150 knots speed also makes me laugh when I remember playing: " TOPGUN: Fire at Will " for PC many years ago, because with all my ingenuity at those times I was landing at 170 knots speeds !!!

If trying to land near the 200 knots speeds, the game featured the sound of snaping wires !

Edited September 25, 2013 by Boresight

[Caesar 305]

One thing to pay attention to in the F-14 is how heavy you are when coming back to the ship.  The Tomcat carries a lot of internal fuel, and if you "Alt+N" back to the boat, and you're still hanging out at 56,000 pounds (above max trap in reality), you're going to have to fly faster on approach; if you try a 125kts approach with that much weight, you're going to sink waaaay too fast.  While I primarily fly the Super Pack version, the approach characteristics are similar, and so long as you're at lower fuel/store capacities (~48,000 or less), you can fly it closer to the mid-120's to low 130's.  Follow the ILS until final (think it gets screwy as you get just about to the fantail of the carrier), pay attention to your descent rate, and you shouldn't have a problem.

[Boresight 51]

Hello Caesar,

 

Thank you for your advices.

 

Even today after almost 20 years playing jet sims, featuring the F-16; F-22; Sukhois; MiGs; EF-2000s; etc, the F-14 still is one of my few favorites to fly and know more.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to acquire the famous " Fleet Defender " here at Portugal, when it came out decades ago.

 

However my first F-14 "sim" contact was with the: " TOPGUN: Fire at Will ", and although not with the same complexity/feature representation as Fleet Defender, it managed to catch my interest in the Tomcat and general naval aviation.

Then, last year SF2 : NA caught my attention to the Strike Fighters series again, and the " TMF F-14 Super Pack " got me to know this site!

[Leviathan1000 0]

Dear Boresight, thank you so much for the time you spend to write all those detailed info; I really appreciate it!!!

 

thank you all for your input, guys! I did not expect such response, I admit! I will go through all your input in detail and hopefully I will manage. I will keep you posted!

[Leviathan1000 0]

Managed 4 out of 5 perfect landings (3 with F-14 and one with A-8) following Boreshight's instructions! One of those was even a low visibility approach which I managed after coming arround from a bolter!The game is becoming more interest now!!!

[Boresight 51]

Glad to know that Leviathan! And also follow the other member's advice, as they are probably more experienced than I'am.

 

About the other aircraft you mention, I believe you mean the A-7 Corsair II right?

 

So, what procedures did you do differently this time to succeed?

[CowboyTodd41 134]

Boresights post pretty much nails this. One thing to remember, try not get too hand-y with the stick. If you feel like you're a bit hamfisted try a few traps with just your fingertips on the stick.

[Leviathan1000 0]

 

 

Glad to know that Leviathan! And also follow the other member's advice, as they are probably more experienced than I'am.

 

About the other aircraft you mention, I believe you mean the A-7 Corsair II right?

 

So, what procedures did you do differently this time to succeed?

 

Yes, I meant the A-7. Actually I used the exact same approach you described for the F-14. The difference I found is that the A-7 seems to be quite more easy to stay in the glideslope compared to the F-14 which may loose altitude easier.

 

Also, what I did do differently (for both aircafts) this time is that I approached the carrier at lower altitude overall. I used to approach at higher altitude thus maintaining a more agressive descent rate which was eventually translated at hard landing.

 

 

Boresights post pretty much nails this. One thing to remember, try not get too hand-y with the stick. If you feel like you're a bit hamfisted try a few traps with just your fingertips on the stick.

 

Definitely! what I do is that I allign with the deck and then adjust altitude with rapid throttle bursts as needed. For slight lateral corrections, very verey slight movements of the stick otherwise you easily loose the allignment.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Leviathan1000

[Boresight 51]

Yes, I meant the A-7. Actually I used the exact same approach you described for the F-14. The difference I found is that the A-7 seems to be quite more easy to stay in the glideslope compared to the F-14 which may loose altitude easier.

 

Also, what I did do differently (for both aircafts) this time is that I approached the carrier at lower altitude overall. I used to approach at higher altitude thus maintaining a more agressive descent rate which was eventually translated at hard landing.

 

 

 

Definitely! what I do is that I allign with the deck and then adjust altitude with rapid throttle bursts as needed. For slight lateral corrections, very verey slight movements of the stick otherwise you easily loose the allignment.

 

 

 

1 - Well there you have it. In reality with a high sink rate, it was becoming more of a crash than a landing.

     (Just to give you an idea, comparing with the reality's worst case scenario I believe that it would end with the aircraft's crew severely injured.)        

 

2 - Why don't you use the aircraft's rudder?

Edited September 26, 2013 by Boresight

[Leviathan1000 0]

I do not like that much the rudder effect on the aircraft attitude. I seem to manage better with stick movement....  :-)

Edited September 26, 2013 by Leviathan1000

[+Brain32 265]

Anybody has a clue why carriers aren't lit up for night landing?

[Boresight 51]

Anybody has a clue why carriers aren't lit up for night landing?

 

Well, judging from the general opinions about the game creator "TK" on several sites, and with the all respect for his work, I'm going to take a chance:

 

Because he didn't bother to place them on the game.

 

If anyone knows best, please tell.