Fishbed tactics against fighters?

[Stratos 3,186]

I have started flying the Fishbed against better opossition and I feel my tactics are not good enough to fight against american fighters. Keeping apart which fighter are the best, can someone help to improve my tactics flying the Fishbed please? Only non-R60 Fishbeds please. I have to say that I fly without red boxes or enemy info, but padlock is activated.

 

What I do. Detect the target with the help of CGI, and win at least 3000ft of heigh advantage. When we merge try to chase the tail of one of the bastards, get really close being in AB all the time and hit it with cannons, try to find the enemy that's chasing the other pair of my flight and repeat. If I'm lucky I can get one, or two (If extremely lucky), then I have to disengage to return to base.

 

But can this be improved somehow? The early Atolls can't hit anything ( they are even worse than AIM-9B I think, when they should be the same missile, right?), so is me and my gun most of the time.

 

Will be nice If someone can add his pexperiences. Thanks.

 

Not tried it against Phantoms yet, that scares me a lot!!

[jeanba 1,920]

I am flying a VPAF campaign in Mig-21 PFV (no gun).

I usually fly low to avoid being locked by F4 or others.

As soon as I am below a potential target, I vertically climb (full AB, then Mil), and try to be in the 6 Oclock of my target.

At same altitude or just lower, I try to find an optimal solution during say 30 seconds, and fire my missiles if I am in range, then I go down, back to base, Mil power.

 

I score a kill once every.5-6 missions.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Same here. Against BVR armed opposition, you must stay low. 
And by low, I mean below 200ft. 

Then, classic hit & run approach: low, and when you are in visual range, climb try to put yourself behind your ennemy, then enter the fray. If you have usefull missiles (AA2-D onwards), use them, and switch to guns. 

 

If you are fighting planes using good sidewinders or, worse, all-aspect ones, well, may the Gods be on your side! Even in dogfight you might have a harsh time. Proper use of missiles and of the wingmen (each one its own target) is crucial as you won't last long if you are outnumbered. Striking first and decisively is a must have. 

I do dislike planes without guns so tend to ignore them, can't say much about the PFV.

[Stratos 3,186]

Makes sense, but what about winder opp? There are tons of F100's, F8's, Hunters, Super Mystere's.... out there.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Depends on the 'winder generation. 
Earlier generation aren't that deadly if you do violent maneuvers. F-100 and F-8 should'nt be a problem. Super Mystères and Hunters neither. 

Just try never to expose your ass long enough for a AIM-9 D to L to lock and follow you, and it should be ok. Use the ground clutter also. 
 

All aspects ones (AIM9-M onwards) are deadly. Shoot first, or you're dead. Especially without any flares.

 

If you ever get downed by a AIM-9B or a Falcon, you are the unluckiest guy ever. 

You shouldn't have much issues (well, not speaking of the 21's very short legs and low ammo) until the late 1970, actually, if you are cautious against BVR capable fighters.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Emp_Palpatine

[jeanba 1,920]

You must limit the use of A/B because of IR missiles and because of your short legs.

I found the PFV safer than the F13 because at least your are not tempted into dogfights, which are not a good idea if you are outnumbered.

The Mig21 turn radius is a good escape against the F8, F4 ..

Against earlier aircraft, think of your max speed.

[Stratos 3,186]

Well those are tips to not get killed, and that's nice, but what about you killing the enemy? Any tip for those early Atolls? and for the gun?

[jeanba 1,920]

For early Atoll, 6 O'clock, 1,5 to 2 km seems to give the best results (around 50% chances of scoring), if the target start maneuvering, give up and look for another target.

Obviously, it is not always possible to find yourself in such a situation, so the kill rate is actually 10-20 %

[+Gepard 11,021]

I think the best launch distance is 1.8km for the R-3S Atoll missile. You must wait till the seeker head has a good sound and then you should not move your plane while launch.

Against Mysteres, Hunters and F-100 use vertical combat. Climb and dive and if neccessary run away. But only if you has a gun.

Without gun only hit and run tactics.

[jeanba 1,920]

Right Gepard, most important advice : fly straight during the launch.

[+FLOGGER23 3,023]

One sortie in a MiG-21F13, 2 crusader kills, one with gun, one with a regular Atoll ;) could have got another kill but got out of gun ammo...

 

 

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Well those are tips to not get killed, and that's nice, but what about you killing the enemy? Any tip for those early Atolls? and for the gun?

Forget about AA-2A, as useless as AIM-9B or Falcons.

You get a good chance to kill from the AA-2D onward: fly straight (indeed) and do respect the missile enveloppe. You should do as good (or better) as with the AIM-9D/E. 

Same advices: a target that does not move too much, not to close, not to far and above the horizon line.

 

For the gun: you have very, very, very low ammo. Only a few bursts. So, precision shooting it is. You'll typically fire when you have zero'd the ennemy at very close range and at 6'o'clock. And given the balistic of the MiG gun, you'll forget about deflection shot. Unless you are very good at them. 

I can score one kill with the gun. Two if I am very lucky. And most time, not a single one. 

 

Finally, it depends on who's the ennemy:

Mach 1 fighters: vertical fighting.

Mach 2 60's : YOU are the dogfighter, the most nimble. Dogfight at close range it is as soon as the BVR "death zone" is crossed.

Mach 2 70's-80's: beware. Agile fighters and deadly weapons. Hit and run might come handy.

[+Gepard 11,021]

Very short burst with the 30mm gun are enough. One or two rounds can kill a Phantom.

And by the way, edit the MiG-21F13_data.ini and set the ammo load from 30 to the real world 60 shells. It helps a lot.

[+FLOGGER23 3,023]

Thanks! it has been done now! :D

[Stratos 3,186]

Very short burst with the 30mm gun are enough. One or two rounds can kill a Phantom.

And by the way, edit the MiG-21F13_data.ini and set the ammo load from 30 to the real world 60 shells. It helps a lot.

 

Is that true? doubling the ammo will help a bit, but why it currently carries only 30 shells then?

[+FLOGGER23 3,023]

probably because the early variants had 2 cannons?

[Stratos 3,186]

I can only find references to 30 shells. Gepard, are you sure?

 

Thanks for the advice of flying straight while using the Atoll, that improves the shoot, at least I got one missile tracking, the other one actually hit the target!!! THANKS!!

 

BTW Flogger, where can I get that cockpit for the F13? Mine does not look that good.

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Flying straight is true for all missiles, but vital for the early generations. 

[MigBuster 2,879]

would have to check - the MiG-21F-13 had one of the cannons removed to fit in some Atoll gear - the earlier MiG-21F had 2 cannons I think

[Peugeot205 2,745]

Forget about AA-2A, as useless as AIM-9B or Falcons.

 

 

I totally disagree with the AIM-9B , I have dozens of kills using them from the Mirage IIIC , I like it very much, for sure, you must shoot it within a range of less than 1Nm , you must be right behind the bandit, and for sure no huge turnings. Anyway , I like it.

Edited April 16, 2014 by cangas

[+FLOGGER23 3,023]

Help yourself Stratos :D

[Emp_Palpatine 501]

Well, it's better than the Shaffrir or the Atoll. Still. Crappy missile. 

 

I've wasted my Cruze all my load against things as maneuvrable as Tu-16 or even An-2 with all going away. And I am damn cautious when using it. Going in a fight with the AIM-9B is like going in a fight with a gun loaded with only one live bullet among dull ones. You'd better be damn lucky. 

Hence my dislike of no-gun fighters like MiG-21 PFV or F-102/-106. Useless in the air in our sims. Typical of that late 50's early 60's "no-gun" frenzy. 

At least the F-4 has decent BVR capabilities and even early sparrows are good weapons when used correctly.

But if you're gonna dogfight armed only with AIM-9B (what it was supposed to do), you're gonna have a baaaaad time.

[MigBuster 2,879]

So the MiG-21F has 2 cannon with 60 rnds per gun - but the MiG-21F-13 was reduced to one cannon and 30rnds only according to TK and Yefim Gordon

 

but the Have Doughnut report states in several places its 1 x cannon can take a max of 60 rnds - potential for at least another 0.1 secs of firepower 

Edited April 16, 2014 by MigBuster

[Stratos 3,186]

Those 30 rounds is what I found on my books. Will try to chwck something more.

[Stratos 3,186]

Well I checked several titles including Yefim Grodon one, and nothing. All it says is that the Mig-21F-13 carries only 30rounds for the 30mm cannon.