Some SF2 KAW questions

[+streakeagle 866]

I finally took the time to download & create a "complete" KAW install per Jeanba's posted list.

I also installed the RAZBAM F2H-2, which is a fantastic aircraft to fly in this environment.

 

First: Why are there duplicate weapons? When I go to a loadout screen for the F2H-2, I see similar but slightly different names for 250 lb and 500 lb bombs. I checked the data inis, and they have almost identical entries except for things like subsonic and transonic drag. 

 

The 5" HVAR listings are equally confusing with no less than three GP rounds plus a GP Proximity.

The one labled "HVAR5" with the (TW) in the description is presumably default game version? That is the only one with the color pattern I have seen in actual photos (i.e. light gray/aluminum/white body with olive drab warhead), so it is the one I have currently assigned in the F2H-2 loadout.ini.

 

I wish RAZBAM would bring the F2H-2 model and ini files up to full SF2NA standards. Aside from the issue with shadows, it doesn't look so good when it takes damage, and the wingtip tanks aren't set up to be jettisonable. I found the loadout.ini wasn't entirely accurate either, but that was an easy fix once I decided which versions of the bombs and rockets I wanted to specify.

The F2H-2 could also really use some new skins with decal support. If only I had the time to make a template and whip up some decals! 

[Wrench 9,633]

 

I wish RAZBAM would bring the F2H-2 model and ini files up to full SF2NA standards

 

yeah, good luck with that.

folks have been asking for several years. but, raz is no longer in the sf business. a pity, the cockpit is worth the price of admission (of course, ALL the skins need rebuilding to have actual modex numbers and other decals, and there's the shadow issues...)

In real life, the tanks were NOT jettisonable (removable, but not droppable)

As to the damage maps, maybe making some new ones are in order? The 3W DDS ones are easily and readily adaptable.

 

for duplicate weapons, if you're worried about HD space,  just shitcan 'em. a lot are just leftovers. the stock 3W HVARs ARE the correct color, as you stated. (which is why I used them on the recent Corsair remods)

Some of those 250 and 500 pounders MAY be pointing to SF2I Exp1 items.

 

someone had actually started a NEW Banjo while we were working on this, but as everyone can see, it never materialized. Just like the B-45 Tornado (not the DAT one)

Edited July 7, 2014 by Wrench

[Geary 1,877]

The F2H-2 could also really use some new skins with decal support. If only I had the time to make a template and whip up some decals! 

 

 

I know what you mean.  I finally started painting out the numbers on the Razbam Banshee's and adding stock decals so not all the planes have the same number.  Going to take awhile to do them all.

 

Eventually hope to get some templates made for them.  Again, going to take awhile to do them.

[+streakeagle 866]

What theme music does everyone use for KAW installs? Top Gun and Iron Eagle that I typically use don't cut it in this case!

For now, the only theme I can associate with the Korean War is the theme from M*A*S*H, so that's what I will use until I figure out something more appropriate.

[Wrench 9,633]

I can have the reskins done quite easily. it only takes a few hours, as the entire aircraft does NOT need retemplating. As I have a HUGE stock of Modex numbers, in all sequences, the only decals that would need new one are the aircraft name a BuNum for the fin.

 

it's just all the other issue that can't be fixed

 

shadow tractor beams

non folding wings

upgrading data ini (FM wise) and adding carrier basing statements (the last being the easiest)

[luk1978 210]

What theme music does everyone use for KAW installs? Top Gun and Iron Eagle that I typically use don't cut it in this case!

For now, the only theme I can associate with the Korean War is the theme from M*A*S*H, so that's what I will use until I figure out something more appropriate.

I'm using theme from MASH and some Korean war era music.

I found it here:

http://www.authentichistory.com/1946-1960/2-korea/3-music/

 

My music files from Menu folder:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzxRGFJuBSIERHUzM3QzZkFseUU/edit?usp=sharing

 

And damage maps for Razbam's F2H-2:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzxRGFJuBSIESmJoS3pZV3BhdGM/edit?usp=sharing

[Wrench 9,633]

ok, below is less than 1 hours work, including time stopped to watch "True Blood", "The Last Ship" and "Falling Skies"

 

the VF-22 skin, with modex decals, randomized of course. (and yes, I have shadows turned on at the moment)

Edited July 7, 2014 by Wrench

[macelena 1,070]

ok, below is less than 1 hours work, including time stopped to watch "True Blood", "The Last Ship" and "Falling Skies"

 

the VF-22 skin, with modex decals, randomized of course. (and yes, I have shadows turned on at the moment)

 

 

I couldn´t get past True Blood or Falling Skies, however, the Last Ship looks better than i had expected.

 

 

Indeed, it doesn´t take much long to get RAZBAM´s Banshee up to SF2 standards, and it was quite worth the money IIRC

[+streakeagle 866]

It is an outstanding release. I love the F2H-2 to begin with and RAZBAM made it very well. I just wish the shadows could be fixed. Folding wings would be icing on the cake.

I found some flight manual performance chart information on the F2H.

It is a subsonic aircraft, so... if I put a bit of time into it, I could probably get the lift, drag, and thrust curves in the ballpark fairly easily.

I simply never gained the ability to develop and tune the stability/inertia aspect that affects the "feel" so much.

Not having done any measurements, I have enjoyed the FM provided by RAZBAM (column5?).

It is predictable and stable as a simple subsonic straight wing aircraft should be, but can be stalled/departed.

It also captures the underpowered feeling of early jets, especially on a catapult takeoff with a full external weapons load.

 

I always enjoyed the original SFP1 KAW even long after WoV and WoE came out: the SP2a AI made for great dogfight's and the A-Team's F2H-2 was adequate at the time.

Now that I finally took the time to get SF2 KAW fully as implemented as possible, I am even happier. Great stuff! Thanks for the all the hard work from Wrench and the whole MiG Alley team!

I'm using theme from MASH and some Korean war era music.

I found it here:

http://www.authentichistory.com/1946-1960/2-korea/3-music/

 

My music files from Menu folder:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzxRGFJuBSIERHUzM3QzZkFseUU/edit?usp=sharing

 

And damage maps for Razbam's F2H-2:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzxRGFJuBSIESmJoS3pZV3BhdGM/edit?usp=sharing

 

Thanks for the feedback and the files :)

I guess I wasn't alone in having MASH be the first thing that came to mind when trying to find a Korean War theme.

[+baffmeister 1,205]

I found some flight manual performance chart information on the F2H.

It is a subsonic aircraft, so... if I put a bit of time into it, I could probably get the lift, drag, and thrust curves in the ballpark fairly easily.

 

Some Streakeagle FM's would be most welcome!  Also, I thought your SF-1 F-4B FM had lots of "feel"!

[+streakeagle 866]

I am thinking about looking at it. I have a climb rate curve that theoretically gives me specific excess power which gives me T-D/W at max thrust and I have a max speed curve that gives me T-D = 0 at max thrust and max speed. Just enough data to make useful estimates of thrust and drag versus altitude. I don't know if I have enough data to figure out CLmax (max lift), but given T, D, and W and the ceiling, I can estimate it. As this aircraft is marginally transonic in level flight, I don't have to worry about complex lift/drag/stability issues. It has been a long time since I worked on this, and it is a lot of work... but I am thinking about it.

[Wrench 9,633]

BuAer standard aircraft charictaristics charts, f2h-2 (pdf in zip)

Edited July 8, 2014 by Wrench

[+streakeagle 866]

BuAer standard aircraft charictaristics charts, f2h-2 (pdf in zip)

That is the document I had already stumbled into while searching for loadout details ;)

It has quite a few numbers that are extremely useful if you know all the constraints used to qualify them.

Unpowered stall speed gives a great estimate of CLmax at that speed, the only question is with or without flaps deployed.

I wish it would include both so that I could figure out how effective the flaps are.

[+streakeagle 866]

Okay, I have done some preliminary research to see how to get started on making a decent FM.

I like to start with a stock Third Wire FM. At a minimum, TK makes a flyable FM player friendly. After reviewing all the stock SF2 aircraft, it looks like only two aircraft are comparable in layout (Canberra and Meteor) and only one is close to the right size (Meteor). I need to evaluate the "feel" of the Meteor FM and see how the performance compares to the published Meteor F.8 data.

The Meteor F.8 has very similar performance. F.8 has more thrust, more wing area, and lower weight, which leads to higher speeds, better, climb, and maybe even better turn performance.

But don't underestimate the F2H-2. It has a slightly higher service ceiling with wing tanks, despite lower thrust and less wing area. Its longer wingspan/higher aspect ratio and blended engines/intakes are key factors -> Better lift to drag ratio, with more lift and less drag.

At Korean War high altitudes, the F2H-2 would easily be the better aircraft with better turn, acceleration, and climb rate as fuel burns off (the empty weights are comparable, it is fuel which makes the F2H-2 heavier).

 

If the F.8 FM is decent, it may be the perfect starting point to dial in total lift, total drag, and engine power. But I need a lift slope curve. At what AoA does the Banshee hit maximum lift? I have means to estimate the slope and max, but I would rather have the exact numbers. I have ordered a flight manual online, but at that time, it may not have the information I seek. Even as easy as this aircraft appears to be, building an accurate FM is work. I may chicken out before I get very far. I still have the ground work for an XB-70 flight model, but never had the motivation to finish importing the data into SF. I wish I could do this for a living. Or maybe not! Really, I just want to fly the actual aircraft or simulated aircraft with hyper-realistic FMs as opposed to doing the work myself. This is where DCS comes in. I don't even check the DCS FMs, I just enjoy all their complexity/detail despite any accuracy limitations. In other words, I am too old for the modding sh!t, I just want to fly!

Edited July 11, 2014 by streakeagle

[+streakeagle 866]

Wrench, 

 

I integrated your contributions into what I already had and it works great! Love the skins and all the other tweaks. About the only thing I differed on was the loadout and data ini for the hardpoints. I have seen photos which confirm the layout my model airplane has: the wing mounts are really the same as the intake mounts (exact same rails). All can mount bombs or rockets. The only limits are the wing strength, stability, and maximum safe payload. From photos, it appears bombs up to 250 lbs can be and were carried on the wing pylons. But 8 x 250 lb bombs is 500 lbs too heavy to take off.

[Wrench 9,633]

Thank You!! :)

one of the reasons I opted for the 4 rocket, 4 260# frags for CAS/Armed Recon, and only 2 500#s for strike. Tried to lighten it a bit, and so forth. I'd seriously considered an all HVAR loadout for CA/AR, which would be even lighter, but,  there it is

[Stratos 3,177]

Guys just want to say that I'm really happy you're improving this bird!

[+streakeagle 866]

I flew the Meteor a bit... I had forgotten that it was now a stock flyable!

By feel, I think I like the RAZBAM F2H-2 FM better as a starting point, but IF I start working on this, I may develop parallel solutions and see which one gets me closer to real world performance.

Even IF I work on this, it will be a LONG time before I have anything to release for testing comments.

No one should get their hopes up!

I have to work on this during the wee hours of the night and lose sleep to make any useful progress once I actually start to plot/analyze/develop an FM.

If it is any consolation... I bought the flight manual online... still waiting for a download link.

[+streakeagle 866]

Check this China Lake test out:

This is the 8xrocket loadout. I watched a video showing 4xrockets being loaded on the belly pylons and I have also seen 250/100 lb bombs on both inboard and outboard pylons. But I can't find any description of a "typical" loadout for specific mission types.

Are these 250 lb or 100 lb? I am guessing 250 lb.

[+streakeagle 866]

I got my F2H-2 manual today. While it doesn't have the performance data that more modern aircraft have, it still has a lot of great stuff.

The immediately useful information is loadout data:

The two innermost hardpoints rated for 500 lb bombs, all other points rated for 250 lb bombs and smaller.

If 500 lb bombs are carried, the other pair of hardpoints next to them cannot be used (as is visually obvious).

Of course it is strongly suggested that loads be symmetrical.

So any combination of rockets/bombs that doesn't violate the weight limit or the above rules is possible.

If the above photo is 250 lb bombs, then 6 bombs is probably the loadout as that hits the 1,500+ lb weight limit.

Edited July 13, 2014 by streakeagle

[+streakeagle 866]

When I built/migrated to another PC so my son could play his games on a decent PC, I didn't migrate my massive SF2 mod folder, including the SF2 Korea install. The other night, I copied over the Korea install and I just got it working right tonight. After months of flying DCS World and spending quite a bit of that time flying F-86s and MiG-15s, coming back to SF2 Korea and flying the F2H-2 didn't seem all that different. Of course, starting up, taking off, and landing aren't nearly as fun, but the terrain and cockpit didn't look that much different from DCS World and the flight model was close enough... despite my lack of time/interest to make it more compliant with published figures. But I would really like to see DCS World provide a Korean War environment up to the new Nevada terrain standard and match it with some of the key aircraft that SF2 Korea has. In particular, I want the F2H-2, but I realize the F9F is what most people would prefer and could live with that aircraft. In the mean time... I still have to fly SF2 if I want my favorite McDonnell products flying in their historically correct combat environments: the F2H-2 and F-4.

[+Viper63a 653]

Shameless plug...

 

I use these menus for my KAW install...Complete with menus, pilots, music and etc...!

 

http://combatace.com/files/file/15295-sf2-mig-alley-wings-over-korea-kaw-v11-hi-res-1024x768-menu-screens-and-music/

http://combatace.com/files/file/15365-sf2-mig-alley-wings-over-korea-kaw-v11-hi-res-1920x1080-menu-screens-and-music/

 

=V=

[Wrench 9,633]

not to divulge state secrets, but there may be a new Banshee in the works..

 

as to Razbams, streak, I don't know if you've seen these:

 

http://combatace.com/files/file/14889-sf2-kaw-f2h-2-banshee-tweeks-pak-for-razbam-banshees/

 

http://combatace.com/files/file/15415-sf2-f2h-3-banshee-tweeks-pak-for-razbam-banshees/

 

http://combatace.com/files/file/15417-sf2-f2h-4-banshee-tweeks-pak-for-razbam-banshees/

[+baffmeister 1,205]

A somewhat off topic question for Streakeagle: Whats your impressions regarding the F-86 and MiG-15 flight models in DCS? Those are the only planes in DCS that interest me at this point. I would probably have to get a new computer before purchasing the game but still think it might be worth a try at some point.

[+streakeagle 866]

A somewhat off topic question for Streakeagle: Whats your impressions regarding the F-86 and MiG-15 flight models in DCS? Those are the only planes in DCS that interest me at this point. I would probably have to get a new computer before purchasing the game but still think it might be worth a try at some point.

If the F-86 and MiG-15 were the only planes available for DCS, I would still be spending most of my time flying DCS. Even the earliest beta releases were better than anything else I had ever flown on a PC before. The F-86 in particular is a dream to fly... very simple to start up/fly/use weapons. Only a few more switches to mess with than an SF2 airplane. But startup/taxi/takeoff/landing experiences are far more realistic/immersive than in SF2. You can stall the engine and then have to try to relight it. The gunsight is well modeled.

 

The MiG-15 offers a similar, but radically different experience. It has a different cockpit layout and handles very differently than the F-86. It is more capable in some ways, but requires a lot more skill to use correctly. They are well matched opponents.

 

But, the key limitation is you are flying/fighting in 1990s Black Sea terrain. The location/weather used for the stock missions makes it look a lot like Korea, so it doesn't bother me that much as an air-to-air nut. But with the P-51D already in the game, that's three of the most used aircraft in the Korean War. All they need is the F-80 and F-84 and you have to core aircraft of the war from the land based side. Add the F4U-4, F9F, and F2H-2 and you get the sea side. But they still need a map and carriers.