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I just have read that one Malaysia's 777-200 would have crashed in Ukraine. Some already argue one SAM interception.

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Malaysian Airlines is trying to replace their fleet of aging aircraft under the radar.

 

Any airline operator that flies over a country in civil distress is gambling with human lives.

 

Any passenger that willing flies this known route by Malaysia should be considered cattle lead to a slaughter.

 

 

 

My condolences and thoughts go out to the families left behind.

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It went down over a rather hot area and there already were reports of a Ukrainian (Kiev) An-26 getting shot down at 6km a just few days ago.

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I just ended to read this one (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/ukraine-claims-plane-shot-by-russian-missile) when one folk send me this info.

 

 

Malaysian Airlines is trying to replace their fleet of aging aircraft under the radar.

 

Any airline operator that flies over a country in civil distress is gambling with human lives.

 

Any passenger that willing flies this known route by Malaysia should be considered cattle lead to a slaughter.

 

 

 

My condolences and thoughts go out to the families left behind.

 

It would be better not to tell them that Malaysia Airlines is already in debt with its A380 orders and still does not raise up from its flight 370 disappearance, these conspirators could find a budding relationship with something completely different, as a localized black hole or a TIE fighter interception.

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Any airline operator that flies over a country in civil distress is gambling with human lives.

 

 

The international air corridor over the Ukraine is still open. All international airlines used it up today for their routes from Europe to South East Asia.

And it was believed to be safe, because the pro russian rebels had  no weapons to harm a plane in 10.000 meters. They have Strelas and Iglas which can reach 2 or 3 km maximum and which are used to down some ukrainian planes.

News tell us, that the plan was shot down by a BuK SAM system. Its the question who fired the missile on the Malaysian flight.

The ukrainian president says it were not the ukrainian armed forces. The russians say, they have no BUK in this area.

Whom you can believe? I dont know. I only can remember that some years ago a training shot of S-200 Vega accidently downed a airliner over the Black Sea. Perhaps something like these could happen again.

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The international air corridor over the Ukraine is still open. All international airlines used it up today for their routes from Europe to South East Asia.

And it was believed to be safe, because the pro russian rebels had no weapons to harm a plane in 10.000 meters. They have Strelas and Iglas which can reach 2 or 3 km maximum and which are used to down some ukrainian planes.

News tell us, that the plan was shot down by a BuK SAM system. Its the question who fired the missile on the Malaysian flight.

The ukrainian president says it were not the ukrainian armed forces. The russians say, they have no BUK in this area.

Whom you can believe? I dont know. I only can remember that some years ago a training shot of S-200 Vega accidently downed a airliner over the Black Sea. Perhaps something like these could happen again.

The separatists claimed to have captured a BUK system a few weeks back. Edited by bwild

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Appart from this supposed Buk-M or MANPADs, don't the pro-Russian rebels have a handful of 9K33 Osa ?

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Horrible tragedy.This is what happens when air defense systems end up in the hands of heroin addicts.

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If I read the NOTAMs right, the airspace was restricted at altitudes of 7900 feet and below. Anything above has right of transit and this aircraft was at 33,000 feet. 777-200s at cruising speed and altitudes between 30-35k burn 864 US gallons per side per hour. Amsterdam to Kuala Lampur is a 13.5 hour flight at cruise for the 777 assuming a 30 minute each for departure and approach. That's ~23,300 burnt in transit not including what is spent in airport movement and climbout. The 777-200 has a maximum fuel quantity of ~31,000, but likely as not there was less fuel aboard. Less fuel equals less weight equals less fuel burnt and thus a decrease in the per seat operating costs of the flight. Any diversion around airspace that is not restricted is risky and not economical for the airline. They were at 33,000 feet; well above the restriction within the control zone of UKCC. THey were within right of transit and if they had not been, UKCC would have ordered them to alter course appropriately and/or the NOTAM would have included a higher restricted altitude within its geographic area.

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Horrible tragedy.This is what happens when air defense systems end up in the hands of heroin addicts.

The question is, whose addicts were involved. Neither Russia nor Ukraine have a clean record in airliner hunting.

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I understand this is a high altitude route. I wouldn't put 289 passengers and crew let alone a 291 million dollar asset at risk just because a route *can* be flown, it shouldn't have been flown. This plane should have never been in this airspace. If the airline company was responsible they would have re-routed further to the south until such time that the tension in on the ground were resolved. Spending extra money on fuel to guarantee the safety of their passengers is not just their responsibility, it's their job and a cost of doing good business. Malaysia Airlines should adopt a new slogan, "never get home again with Malaysia Airlines".

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I agree with you. The east ukrainian airspace should have been closed some weeks ago for civil traffic.

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Hah... get this Russian spin, currently in our news: that was Ukraine trying to shoot down Putin who was flying somewhere in Eastern Europe at the same altitude in a plane of a similar size, and even crossed paths with the downed bird. :lol:

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More seriously, another Malaysia flight, on an A380-800, was cruising over this sector, some nm away at the same time.

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This bloody provocation is a some kind of a combo breaker for a failed, so-called "anti-terrorist" operation in Ukraine, I suppose.

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Reading the geographical area affected by the NOTAM that was rejected by Ukraine that closed off anything at or below 29k feet, that geographical area was pretty wide, going all the way east to the Crimea. Diverting south and west around it would have burned quite a bit of fuel. It's all one. The Ukrainian authorities rejected the 29k NOTAM and continued to provide ARTCC service for the control zone only with the warning that airliners may be under the simultaneous control of Russian ARTCC. So the company made the decision to keep flying the route as published. Foolish, but they weren't the only ones who continued to use it. Aeroflot, Turkish Air, and Lufthansa were among flights within that route segment that have now been ordered to divert. UKCC probably has their hands full right now.

 

You are quite right, Erik. Money should not have been an issue with regards to the safety of its passengers. US airlines were ordered not to use that route at all and as far as I am aware have complied.

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And how many US airlines do you think were affected by that order? Probably zero.

Other airlines have routed their traffic through this area as well. According to that logic, half of Africa and most of the Middle East would be off-limits as well.

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as i hearded that they lost another 777, for some odd reasons the movie "hunt for red october" came to my mind: "you lost another submarine?!"

lets see what happens in the next hours or so maybe we get some  hard info about it.

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And how many US airlines do you think were affected by that order? Probably zero.

Other airlines have routed their traffic through this area as well. According to that logic, half of Africa and most of the Middle East would be off-limits as well.

Wrong.

 

All US airlines were affected by the order, especially long range airlines like UAL, Delta...and mine. In fact, we stopped flying in that area back in Feb.

 

Also, most SAM threats against airline ops have been from MANPADS striking during climb out...and even then, the amount of actual airliners downed per MANPAD fired has been low due to various factors, not the least of which is the podded engine pylon design of most modern airliners.

 

An SA-6/17 derived SAM is a different class of weapon. One only has to look at the Iran Air 665 incident to see how dangerous flying an airliner in contested airspace, in tense international situations, with long range weapons, and very little reaction time can be a tragedy in the making.

 

A sad day for all the families affected by this.

 

FC

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All US airlines were affected by the order, especially long range airlines like UAL, Delta...and mine. In fact, we stopped flying in that area back in Feb.

 

All US airlines? Besides cargo-operators and troop-charters, there are no US airlines flying along that route, unless you count codeshare-flights.

So far, nothing suggested the whole mess down there to turn crazy. Airlines have been flying through troubled airspace for long times.

 

In any case, somebody went one step too far and has to be made accountable.

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Just 3 and 2 years ago we were waving goodbye at Schiphol to our 2 daughters, on their way to Australia for their gap year after having finished their school........

More than 150 Dutch passengers aboard this time, including for sure a lot of backpacking youngsters, also on their way ......

It could have been our kids, my wife is in tears.......

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RIP:

189 Dutch,

44 Malaysians (incl. crew),
27 Australians,

12 Indonesians,

9 British,

4 Germans,

4 Belgians,

4 yet unknown,

3 Filippinos,

1 Newzealander,

1 Canadian...

 

Fuck the politics, mourn the dead...


(edited 17.00 hours, 7-18-2014)

Edited by Muesli
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All US airlines? Besides cargo-operators and troop-charters, there are no US airlines flying along that route, unless you count codeshare-flights.

So far, nothing suggested the whole mess down there to turn crazy. Airlines have been flying through troubled airspace for long times.

 

In any case, somebody went one step too far and has to be made accountable.

Yes, all US airlines are affected if they had operations in that area. That includes cargo, charter and CRAF.

 

Make no mistake, this was different from your standard MANPAD threat. Active combatants, both (or three...depending on how you view the conflict) all have medium range SAMs in that area.

 

Nobody is going to fess up to this one anytime soon...unfortunately.

 

FC

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I believe that the "Ukranian Rebel Terrorists" are actually regular serving Russian soldiers. The Russian military did this whether they want to admit it or not.

 

The leader of the rebels in that area, who was an FSB Colonel until last year was boasting on the internet about downing a Ukranian Antonov right after this happened.

 

This is what I think the story is:

 

Russian military personnel operating medium range SAM system under the flag of separatist rebels thought they where shooting at a Ukranian transport. But, because of the incompetence and greed of Malaysia Airlines, MH17 was flying at a much lower altitude and probably did mimic known Ukranian flight parameters. The result, an utterly senseless and avoidable tragedy.

 

But who do you blame?

 

I would say the Russian Military. Because they did not have to pull the trigger.

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