In TOPGUN DACT, what counts as a 'kill'?

[TeaAndScones 2]

I became interested in TOPGUN after seeing the eponymous movie.  In the Training Flight scenes, it seems the criteria for a legal 'kill' was radar-lock and above the Hard Deck.  (Which you may have known, Mav broke and was reprimanded for it.)  I know this would make sense in the real TOPGUN, but were there any other restrictions/conditions that would have to be taken into account to claim a 'kill'.

 

Also, can someone please tell me, why, in Mavs tangle with both Jester and Viper, their Fire-Control systems were taking so long to lock-on?  Dramatic effect maybe?  Seems rather stupid considering Jester and Mav both had Mav and Viper in their gunsights for the whole time.  Also, Mavs gunsight after 'switching to guns' was still has the missile-lock reticule instead of a pipper.  Any ideas?

 

Cheers. :)

[Caesar 305]

Breaking the hard deck is equivalent to ramming the aircraft into the ground in a real fight.  In the case of the movie, both aircrews would've been considered "dead" regardless of if Maverick had fired.  You can see an example of this in "Speed & Angels" where a student F-14 pilot flying against an instructor F-5 with an instructor RIO in the back dives down on the F-5, and you can hear the RIO saying "Watch the deck, watch the deck!" followed by "knock it off, deck."

 

"Bio" Baranek covers some of the kill criteria in his descriptions of TOPGUN; simply having a radar lock or missile tone for the AIM-9 isn't enough.  A well performed defensive maneuver by the target could invalidate kill criteria, either because of ACMI data or instructor decision that the defense would have worked.  Tracking gun solution is a definitive kill.

 

As to the effects of the HUD and fire control system in the F-14, those are all movie effects.  An F-14 HUD looks nothing like that, and the radar in VSL doesn't "chase" its target (this being the most likely radar mode used in a dogfight).  It scans up and down in a 4.8-degree wide 40 degree elevated pattern (for High 15-55 degrees, for Low -15 to 25 degrees) and automatically locks the first thing that comes into view.  

 

Here's an example of an actual training dogfight in an F-14A, mid-1980's:

 

Quite a bit different, but not as exciting for a big screen!

[KJakker 888]

This documentary might help, it is about US Navy F-18 training against German Luftwaffe MIG-29's back in 2000 but it should answer a lot of questions. In fact Hard deck is used wrong in the TOP GUN movie.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9XrdaHaCNo&list=PL210B66E418D2E8FF

[JediMaster 451]

The problem I've always had with the training "kills" is if you don't have a definitive instant system, it breaks the whole thing down.

 

So the attacker gets a "kill" on the defender, but then in debrief it's reversed and the defender escaped. Ok, fine, but then that means the fight should've continued and perhaps the defender would've shot down the attacker, or maybe the attacker would've persevered anyway. By calling it off once a potential kill is scored, you arbitrarily end the fight at that point. 

[MigBuster 2,884]

Ahh that sneaky Su-27 you thought you shot down has the nerve to fire a missile at you while you are doing the TopGun aileron roll of victory!

[+Typhoid 231]

When I flew with them (two hops with VF-126 in the aggressor role (TA-4J)) it was weapons system lock within the system parameters or gun kill as verified in the gun camera. 

 

They were just then (late '70's early 80's) getting the range equipment in that provide a complete record of all aircraft in the fight.  The ACM pod (I don't recall the name of the system) linked back to the ground system and recorded everything.  There was no more of the fighter pilot BS "there I was at your six". 

 

The system now records everything and a kill is only if within the selected weapon system parameters.