Need Experts help with F-86s in Europe

[+Geary 1,889]

Hi All,

 

  I'm cleaning up my Europe install and need information on US F-86s stationed there from after the Korean War until about 1960.

 

  I've run a couple of web searches but most of the information I come across is just wiki redundancy and not very specific.

 

  I'd like to know more about what versions of the Sabre the US had there then.  What units flew them.  What did the 'skins' look like?

 

 I've run across a few skins here at CA I think fit but would like confirmation:

 

 

 

 

Any and all help is appreciated.

 

 

Geary

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

From a chart, in a magazine :

 

1954

 

Germany

 

Bitburg AB :

36th fighter day wing (22nd, 23rd, 53rd) F-86F

 

Hahn AB :

50th fighter bomber wing (10th, 81st, 417th FBS) F-86F

 

Ramstein AB :

86th fighter interceptor wing (525th 526th) F-86D

86th fighter interceptor wing (527th FDS) F-86F

7486th air defense group (440th, 496 FIS) F-86D

 

France

 

Chambley AB :

21st fighter bomber wing (72nd, 416th, 531st FBS) F-86F december 1954 -> february 1958

 

Chaumont AB :

48th fighter bomber wing (492nd, 493rd, 494th) F-86F (+ Skyblazers 1953 -> 1956) november 1953 -> december 1956

 

Etain AB :

388th fighter bomber wing (561st, 562nd, 563rd FBS) F-86F december 1954 -> november 1956

 

Netherlands

 

Soesterberg AB :

512th fighter day squadron F-86F

 

Great Britain

 

Manston AB :

406th fighter interceptor squadron (87th, 440th, 496th, 513th, 514th FIS) F-86D

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The F-86H came later, first time at Hahn AB, 50thFBW, falls 1955

 

The F-86A first appearance was at Bentwaters and Sheperds Grove, 81st FIW, august 1951

 

Hope it'll help at least to start :^)

Edited February 6, 2016 by Cliff7600

[Wrench 9,850]

also important to realize, using FU-900 as an example, 2nd image, that paint job represents the wing commander's aircraft ONLY.

As only he would have a ship with all 3 colors of the wing's squadrons. Each squadron is assigned it's own color. Finding out which is the real trick

One can make are argument, based on the stars on the tail stripes (1st squadron, red, 2nd squadron yellow, 3rd squadron blue). This would fit with color markings carried over from WW2, as that same pattern was used

 

Of each of the three squadrons ONLY the squadron commander carried the color on the fuselage band; all the rest carried them on the tail only. (sometimes the deputy squadron command had a fuse stripe as well, but I can't remember the pattern - full or partial?)

 

as to the Euro camo, iirc (and may be stated in the readme) only used by one squadron as a experiment, and only for a short time.

 

what you'll probably want to find are the Squadron Signal books " Fighting Colors: USAF in Europe 1948-1965" vols 1 & 2. (although 2 deals more with bombers and transports and such)

 

what's sad is the painted on fues stripes really show the non-smoothing of model's meshes. Considering the lod's age -- that's not too (there are MUCH worse ones out there). It might best be done as a decal, set at either level 1 or level 2. If there's enough "space" remaining on the fues mesh

 

as to which variant, yes indeed, mostly F models -- with all it's variations too

[+Geary 1,889]

Cliff,

 

  Great info.  Definitely gives me a start.  Maybe some of these unit web pages will give up some historical data.  Thanks.

 

 

Wrench,

 

  A fount of information, as usual. 

 

 The 'colorful' skin is quite old.  I think the one I tossed into my template blender was 512 px.  I bumped up to 2048 then saved it as a large jpg.  Helped some but not much.  Not sure I'll use that skin.  Looking now for what's available for the theatre and time.  Don't really want to start 'new' skins. And I still can't make decals.  But it's on my bucket list.  I'm using your F-86 numbers.

 

 I'll look those Squadron Signal books up.  Might come in handy if I change my mind and decide to paint new skins.  Probably buy a used book as the price of a new one is somewhere over $50.

 

 Thanks,

[+daddyairplanes 10,248]

Check pm

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Maybe you could have a look here

 

http://miprofiles.unblog.fr/2014/11/09/sabre-f/

 

USAFE, Canadian, RAF and Luftwaffe F-86 profiles

Edited February 7, 2016 by Cliff7600

[Wrench 9,850]

one never just "blows up the skin" to the new size without repainting the stripes. It's just another layer. I've done it countless times

 

making decals is nothing...getting them the right size is the trick (look to my F-89 Scorpion for an example)

 

the books are available on pdf off the net, if one knows where to look.

[Slant6 21]

Skins for USAF Sabres stationed in Europe would be much appreciated!

[+Geary 1,889]

Cliff,

 

   Great site.  I wish the pictures were higher rez and downloadable.

 

 

 

Wrench,

 

   I almost always end up repainting.  Unfortunately, I usually end up painting over great weathering to get the lines and rivets from my templates on the skins.

 

   One day I will learn to make decals.  Just not today.

 

 

Slant6,

 

   I agree.  We could use more skinners and information on Sabers in Europe.

[Wrench 9,850]

that's why you do them underneath the weathering (always the topmost layer) and the panels/rivets (somewhere in the middle). The actual skin surface is at the bottom.

 

just look at the Ravenclaw templates for the Sabres I uploaded -- all the layers I added are under the lines.

[+Hans Topp 115]

Maybe find something in this books

 

 

 

 

edited:

removed attachments

please don't post copywrited material on the open forums. if you follow my drift!!

Edited February 7, 2016 by Wrench

[Wrench 9,850]

not liking the nose stars at all!!

trying to find a better way of doing them...

 

10th FBS

[Wrench 9,850]

ok, that's better!!!

 

if you want, Geary, I'll take care of the 50th FBW, you can do the others <gr>. I have to update the 461 FDS skin as well; forgot the dielectric panel on the fin top on the old skin!

 

also corrected the color on the serials and buzz numbers -- now they'r the right blue

[+Geary 1,889]

Wrench,

 

   Are these decals?  Nice.

 

   Do as many skins as you want. 

[Wrench 9,850]

I don't want to take over the whole thing!!! After all, it was YOUR idea!!!

 

 

tail is decals, unfortunately, I had to paint on the nose bands. The decals just stretched too oddly..

[Wrench 9,850]

geary, can you point me to the original 21st FBW skins? (72nd FBS, with the red nose and with stars) Can't seem to find them

 

want to try something...

 

edit -- never mind! I found it. It was hiding in plane site (sort of)

[Wrench 9,850]

well, that came out a LOT better than I'd hoped for!!! Had to make the red a lot darker so it wouldn't fade under the clouds layer and the texture set's settings

[+Geary 1,889]

Wrench,

 

   WOW!  Looking good.

 

   I haven't had the time to work on skins today that I'd hoped to have.  Damned real life getting in the way of my fun.

 

   I have managed a bit to work on a template.  Should make making skins easier... at least that's the plan.  Still need to learn to weather.  But at least with the template it's just a matter of layers once I hit on the right weathering formula.

 

[regula50 47]

Expanding the deployment data. Most of the F-86Fs were gone by the end of 1956 and replaced with F-100s. Exception, the France based units, lasted sometime more and replaced by early 1958.

 

A-5, F, H(Germany, Holland, UK and France)

 

10th TFS/50th TFW   F-86H Hahn AB, Germany(from 1953 to 1956)Toul-Rosières AB, France(from 1956 to 1957)

22th FDS/36th TFW F-86F Bitburg AB, Germany(from Aug 1953 to 1956)(Converted to F-100C by Nov 1956)

23th FDS/36th TFW F-86F Bitburg AB, Germany(from Aug 1953 to 1956)(Converted to F-100C by Nov 1956)

53th FDS/36th TFW F-86F Bitburg AB, Germany(from Aug 1953 to 1956)

32th FIS/36th FDW F-86F Soesterberg AB, Holland(from Sep 8, 1955 to 1956) 

72th FBS/21th FBW F-86F Chambley-Bussieres AB, France(Apr 9, 1955 to Feb 8, 1958)

78th FIS/81th FIW F-86F RAF Shepherds Grove, England(from 1952 to Feb 8, 1955)

81th FIS/50th TFW   F-86H Hahn AB, Germany(from Aug 1953 to Jul 10, 1956)Toul-Rosières AB, France(from Jul 10, 1956 to Jul 1958)

91th FIS/81th FIW F-86A-5 RAF Shepherds Grove, England(from Sep 5, 1951 to Feb 8, 1955)

92th FIS/81th FIW F-86A-5 RAF Shepherds Grove, England(from Sep 5, 1951 to Feb 8, 1955)

116th FIS/81th FIW F-86A-5 RAF Shepherds Grove, England(from Sep 3, 1951 to Nov 1, 1955) 

416th FBS/21th FBW F-86F Chambley-Bussieres AB, France(Apr 15, 1957 to Feb 8, 1958)

417th TFS/50th TFW F-86F Hahn AB, Germany(from Aug 9, 1953 to Apr 15, 1956)Toul-Rosières AB, France(from Apr 15, 1956 to Mar 1958)

492th TFS/48th TFW   F-86F Chaumont-Semoutiers AB Base, France(1954 to Nov 1956)(Converted to F-100D in Nov 1956)

493th TFS/48th TFW   F-86F Chaumont-Semoutiers AB Base, France(1954 to Nov 1956)(Converted to F-100D in Nov 1956)

494th TFS/48th TFW   F-86F Chaumont-Semoutiers AB Base, France(1954 to Nov 1956)(Converted to F-100D in Nov 1956)

512th FIS/406th FIW F-86F RAM Manston, UK(from Aug 1953 to Nov 1, 1954)Soesterberg AB, Holland(from Nov 1, 1954 to Sep 8, 1955)RAF Bentwater, UK(from Sep 8, 1955 to 1956)  

513th FIS/406th FIW F-86F RAF Manston, UK(from Aug 1953 to Apr 1954)

514th FIS/406th FIW F-86F RAF Manston, UK(from Aug 1953 to Apr 1954)

525th FIS/86th FIW F-86F Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(Apr 14, 1953 to 1957)Bitburg AB(Feb 12, 1957 to 1959)

527th FBS/86th FIW F-86F Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(from May 1953 to 1954) 

531th FBS/21th FBW F-86F Chambley-Bussieres AB, France(Apr 15, 1957 to Feb 8, 1958)

561th FBS/388th FBW F-86F Hahn AB, Germany(from Dec 12, 1954 to Dec 1, 1955)Étain-Rouvres Air Base, France(1956)

562th FBS/388th FBW F-86F Spangdahlem AB, Germany(from Dec 12, 1954 to Dec 1, 1955)Étain-Rouvres Air Base, France(1956)

563th FBS/388th FBW F-86F Bitburg AB, Germany(from Dec 12, 1954 to Jul 1955)Étain-Rouvres Air Base, France(from Jul 1955 to 1956) 

 

F-86D

 

440th FIS/86th FIW F-86D Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(Jul 4, 1954 to Feb 17, 1956)Erding AB, Germany(February 17, 1956 to Dec 31, 1959).

496th FIS/86th FIW F-86D Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(Jul 4, 1954 to Nov 8, 1956)Hahn AB, Germany(Nov 8, 1956 to Dec 1959)

512th FIS/86th FIW F-86D RAF Bentwater, UK(from 1956 to March 24, 1958)Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(from Mar 24, 1958 to Jul 1, 1959)

513th FIS/86th FIW F-86D Phalsbourg-Bourscheid AB, France(from Apr 16, 1958 to Jan 8, 1961) 

514th FIS/86th FIW F-86D Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(May 15, 1958 to Jan 8, 1961)

525th FIS/86th FIW F-86D Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(August 9 1952 to Feb 12, 1957)Bitburg AB, Germany(Feb 12, 1957 to 1959)

526th FIS/86th FIW F-86D Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(August 1, 1952 to 1960)

527th FIS/86th FIW F-86D Ramstein-Landstuhl AB, Germany(from 1954 to Feb 8, 1956)

[+Geary 1,889]

regula50,

 

  Good info.  This will help fit these Sabres into correct time frames in campaigns.

 

  Thanks,

[Wrench 9,850]

you know you can save yourself a shitload of time by simply using Ravenclaw's templates that I upload last year.  IIRC, there should be a 'clouds' layer already there

[+Geary 1,889]

I like Ravenclaw's template for it's details.  It's very meticulous.  I wish I'd used it as the base for my template but I began mine a couple years or so ago when I first started understanding the need for templates.. 

 

When I made mine I copied the panel lines and rivets from the 'well weathered' Korea sabre we have here.  It's lines are different from Ravenclaw's template and not as exacting. 

 

I drew my lines in black and copied them into another layer I placed under the black one and painted those lines white.  Now I can offset the under layer and adjust the opacity of the lines and rivets to suit my need.  Gives the lines and rivets a slight shadow and 3d look.   

 

I can't do that with Ravenclaws because his lines and rivets layers are saved in gray.  Would need the original with lines and rivets layers painted pure black.

 

In the meantime, I'm using his detailed and precise stenciled text and some of his other bits to add realism to the skin.

 

I'm grateful for Ravenclaw's conscientious attention to detail.  He's set a visual standard that's greatly raised the level of realism in this game and is just awe inspiring to look at.

[Wrench 9,850]

 

Now I can offset the under layer and adjust the opacity of the lines and rivets to suit my need.  Gives the lines and rivets a slight shadow and 3d look

 

you're forgetting one thing, though...2 words

 

Flush Riveting

 

same with the panels; they are all "butt joined", with a filler of some type (usually a felt or rubbery compound) to seal them joint to joint.

One of the disadvantages of having been so close to the real birds in museums & flight lines that I've run my fingers along the joints and over the skins, seeing them taken apart, and reading the maintanence and erection manuals! (not for Sabres, but other ww2 birds)

think of smoothness -- all these birds are exceedingly clean; anything sticking up even a millimeter induces drag. The last thing the engineers want.

 

for rivets, I'd suggest a layer under the primary rivets, also in black, then hitting it with a " Gaussian blur" of 2-3 pixels width, then fading till it looks right (somewhere around 30-40% opacity - this is obviously for NM skins) simulates dirt accumulation in the rivets dimple.

As we'll never get these bump and spec mapped, that's the best we can do

 

one of the best examples I can give, is the actual test I did to myself, a couple of years ago a the Chino Museum -- I stood at the very wingtip of a P-47M (so, call it "half span", approx. 20.5 feet), and looked inward. I could barley make out the rivet lines on the fuselage, and the panels were literally just that - lines where they butted together.

 

but, everyone does what they think 'look right' -- and that's the real trick. Does it LOOK right??

[charlielima 328]

Like the instructions stenciled on this aircraft ?

 

 

CL

 

 

[Wrench 9,850]

here's the units I have completed, as of this second:

 

21st FBW

 

72nd FBS

416th FBS

531st FBS

 

36th FBW

 

22nd FBS

23rd FBS

53rd FBS

32nd FBS

461st FBS (in part 1 pack already)

 

plus those released yesterday...

 

50th FBW

 

10th FBS

81st FBS

417th FBS

 

just so's folks can keep track!