Croatian MiG-21 upgrade "issues"

[MigBuster 2,884]

Anything credible in this?

 

 

 

Croatian security services and the Defense Ministry have launched an investigation into a 2013 military deal with a Ukrainian company, which is said to have undermined the air force’s combat capabilities.

Under the contract, Croatia paid over $21 million to repair and modernize seven Soviet-era MiG-21 fighter jets at Ukrainian plants, and to purchase another five aircraft of the same type there.

But those five MiG-21s were never sold by the Ukrainians “as such,” Jutarnji List newspaper has revealed. In fact, the aircraft were reportedly assembled from dubious obsolete parts coming from all over the world.

............................................................

All the MiGs that arrived from Ukraine have been destroyed as the air force does not know where they actually came from, a source close to the investigation told Jutarnji List, without elaborating. As a result, the country has essentially lost a key part of its air force, the newspaper notes.

 

https://www.rt.com/news/337010-ukraine-fake-jets-croatia/

[jeanba 1,920]

Credible, yes, up to a large extent : it often happened that if a country sells a plane, they replace some parts by older ones

(those cases are well known for spanish civil war, for the Somali-Ethiopia war ...).

 

Is it true for this specific situation ?

I don't know

 

"destroyed" ?

Not sure, it would have been logic to keep them for a justice action, but maybe people from both sides don't want to hear about justice ?

Edited March 24, 2016 by jeanba

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

RT is the source.......

 

Croatia would be better of asking the U.S.A. for 15 F-16's.....

[Svetlin 552]

5 decommissioned Bulgarian MiG-21s without engines were sold to Ukraine in 2013.

That was confirmed by specialized Bulgarian media back at the time.

[+Gepard 11,356]

RT is the source.......

 

Croatia would be better of asking the U.S.A. for 15 F-16's.....

 

RT is not a really reliable source. But sometimes the only source, because our western medias have a certain way to hide some kind of news.

 

Croatia is not the richest country in Europe. And i think it is the right way to fly the MiG-21 as long as possible. Its cheap in comparsion with other fighters. The ground structure of the bases, the maintainace system is made around the plane. They have skilled pilots and technicians for the MiG.

A step toward the F-16 would not end with buying the plane. There the pilots and groundcrews must be trained. The question of spareparts etc etc etc.

Instead to rely on Ukraine or Romania, Croatia should have choosen Israel as partner for MiG-21 improvement.

Or it should ask Italy for help. The Italians had helped China with introduction of Grifo radars in J-7 fighters. If they could manage it with the chinese MiG-21 copy, they would also be able to do it with the original plane.

[Snailman 517]

They should not have trusted the maffia government in Ukraine... they steal like gypsies. The problem is not the plane type here. For refurbishment of aircraft they should have dealt with the manufacturer, Russia, and for avionics upgrade Israel or again Russia.

[jeanba 1,920]

Oupss, RT is "Russian Today", they were those guys who siad that US sailors fled to Bulgaria whan their Destryer was electronically jammed by a Super modern ECM pod carried by a Su-24 and that the Russian plane nearly shot down 4 Israeli F15 !!!

[+Gepard 11,356]

Dont know, from where you got the fairy tale, that russian planes nearly shot down israeli planes. Not from RT. There you can read, that between Israel and the Russians in Syria are no problems at all. This statement is coverd by other medias.

 

Of course RT is a questionable source and often not really reliable. But not all what they tell us is wrong.

 

I think RT is quote following article in croatia media: https://www.total-croatia-news.com/politics/3015-military-police-conducting-a-detailed-investigation-croatian-migs-could-be-fake

 

 

What happened to the Croatian planes that were refurbished in Ukraine? 

According to a report by Jutarnji list on March 22, 2016, Croatia's military police is currently conducting a major investigation in the refurbishment of MiG-21s which were bought and refurbished in Ukraine. The investigation has allegedly proven many irregularities and there is serious suspicion that bribe was paid.

The refurbished MiG-21s were handed over to Croatian Air Force in July 2015 and ever since the planes arrived, problems started to emerge. Eight months later, the Air Force has just three planes available for operations, while five are not operational. According to sources close to the investigation, the investigators found that serial numbers on the chassis of the planes have been changed and that the parts which were changed do not match the ones listed in the documents raising serious suspicion that the planes could be 5 years older than their accompanying documentation claims.

Furthermore, sources claim that the refurbishment might not have been conducted at all and that this was one of the reasons why the planes, signed off by former Defence minister Kotromanović kept breaking down: “We do not know if the planes that were sent to Ukraine for refurbishment are the same ones that came back“ the source added.  When first suspicions were raised in 2015 the Defence Ministry did not comment and the same thing is happening now, but considering new Minister's only been in power for a few months, we're guessing he hasn't had a chance to get acquainted with the problem yet.

According to Jutarnji List, Croatian Ministry of Defence asked for the funds from the State budget which was the same amount as the Ukrainian offer even before the company was selected through a public tender. The article also claims that an Israeli company tried to bid for the job but they were declined with an explanation that the public procurement process already started and that negotiations are already in place with a Ukrainian and a Romanian company.

A contract that was signed lists the purchase of 8 MiGs that were in Ukraine and a refurbishment of all 12 planes (7 were already owned by the Croatian Ministry of Defence). Even at that time, the ownership of those 5 planes was questionable since only one year earlier, Ukraine tried to sell Croatia 8 MiGs that were apparently owned by Yemen and not Ukraine. Yemeni government sent a letter to the Ministry stating that the planes are indeed theirs, but the Ministry declared the letter a fake.

Now it seems that even the 5 planes that Croatia did end up buying from Ukraine were put together using parts from all over the world and there is a suspicion that the hull is Bulgarian, wings from Algeria while the gas tanks had Russian insignia on them. Sources state that the hulls are probably from the planes Bulgaria reported to NATO as destroyed. The entire refurbishment procedure in Ukraine was very strange, to say the least if we know that Croatian pilots were never allowed to test the planes in all flight regimes, even though the contract clearly stated that the planes would not be paid unless all tests were conducted-

We will keep you posted on all developments since we believe many other shady dealings will be uncovered as time passes.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Gepard

[jeanba 1,920]

Dont know, from where you got the fairy tale, that russian planes nearly shot down israeli planes. Not from RT. There you can read, that between Israel and the Russians in Syria are no problems at all. This statement is coverd by other medias.

 

Of course RT is a questionable source and often not really reliable. But not all what they tell us is wrong.

 

I think RT is quote following article in croatia media: https://www.total-croatia-news.com/politics/3015-military-police-conducting-a-detailed-investigation-croatian-migs-could-be-fake

Well, RT is not reliable : we need to completly rebuild the story with other news before having some ideas about te stuff (just like wikipedia, you need to recheck on your own before believing them => you need to redo their work)

And what is said by croatia media is not very nice, but far less than what was said by RT.

[+Gepard 11,356]

No smoke without fire, i would say. In Croatia, the police is investigating. And it seems to be, that the Ukrainians have cheaten the Croatians.

 

The croatian newspaper JutarnijList had this article  on 21.March 2016:

http://www.jutarnji.hr/ekskluzivno--najveci-skandal-u-povijesti-hrvatske-vojske-nasi-mig-ovi-su-lazni--vojna-policija-zbog-velike-prevare-pokrenula-detaljnu-istragu-/1545837/

 

 

Avioni su kupljeni i remontirani u Ukrajini. Doznajemo da se sumnja da je u tom poslu isplaćeno mito!

 

Vojna policija provodi veliku istragu o remontu aviona MiG 21 koji su kupljeni i remontirani u Ukrajini. Jutarnji list ekskluzivno doznaje da su dosad u istrazi utvrđene mnogobrojne nepravilnosti te se ozbiljno sumnja da je u tom poslu isplaćeno mito!

 

Dvanaest remontiranih MiG-ova Hrvatskom ratnom zrakoplovstvu predano je u srpnju 2015. godine. Osam mjeseci nakon toga Ratno zrakoplovstvo raspolaže samo s tri borbena aviona, a pet remontiranih aviona povučeno je iz upotrebe! Prema informacijama iz istrage, kriminalisti Vojne policije do sada su utvrdili da su na avionima koje je Hrvatska kupila od Ukrajine "prekucani" serijski brojevi i da oni ne odgovaraju dokumentaciji aviona ni brojevima koji se navode u ugovoru o remontu, te da ugrađeni dijelovi aviona ne odgovaraju pratećoj dokumentaciji aviona.

Istraga je pokazala da su avioni kupljeni od Ukrajine stariji nego što piše u dokumentaciji. Navodno četiri do pet godina. Može se postaviti i pitanje je li upravo tih sedam aviona koji su upućeni u Ukrajinu na remont i vraćeno natrag. Čak se ozbiljno sumnja da je cjelokupna dokumentacija lažirana, a remont na avionima uopće nije obavljen! Istraga je, prema našim informacijama, pokrenuta nakon neprestanih kvarova na tek remontiranim avionima.

Translation via Google Translator:

 

"The planes were bought and refurbished in Ukraine. We learn that it is suspected that it is in business paid a bribe!

 

Military police carried out a major investigation into the overhaul MiG 21 purchased and refurbished in Ukraine. Jutarnji list has learned exclusively that so far in the investigation identified a number of irregularities and there is serious concern that in the business paid a bribe!

 

Twelve repaired MiG-Croatian Air Force was submitted in July 2015. Eight months later, the Air Force has only three fighter jets and five repaired aircraft were withdrawn from use! According to the investigation, the military police criminal investigators so far have found that the planes that Croatia has bought from Ukraine "typed" serial numbers and that they do not correspond to the documentation plane is not the numbers referred to in the contract of the outage, and that parts built aircraft not appropriate supporting documentation planes.

 

The investigation showed that the planes purchased from Ukraine older than what the documents. Apparently four to five years. It may be asked, is it just these seven aircraft were sent to Ukraine for repairs and returned back. Even the serious suspicion that the entire documentation spoofed, and overhaul of the aircraft was not done! The investigation, according to our information, launched after continuous failures only reconditioned aircraft."

 

[jeanba 1,920]

No smoke without fire, i would say. In Croatia, the police is investigating. And it seems to be, that the Ukrainians have cheaten the Croatians.

 

The croatian newspaper JutarnijList had this article  on 21.March 2016:

http://www.jutarnji.hr/ekskluzivno--najveci-skandal-u-povijesti-hrvatske-vojske-nasi-mig-ovi-su-lazni--vojna-policija-zbog-velike-prevare-pokrenula-detaljnu-istragu-/1545837/

 

Translation via Google Translator:

 

"The planes were bought and refurbished in Ukraine. We learn that it is suspected that it is in business paid a bribe!

 

Military police carried out a major investigation into the overhaul MiG 21 purchased and refurbished in Ukraine. Jutarnji list has learned exclusively that so far in the investigation identified a number of irregularities and there is serious concern that in the business paid a bribe!

 

Twelve repaired MiG-Croatian Air Force was submitted in July 2015. Eight months later, the Air Force has only three fighter jets and five repaired aircraft were withdrawn from use! According to the investigation, the military police criminal investigators so far have found that the planes that Croatia has bought from Ukraine "typed" serial numbers and that they do not correspond to the documentation plane is not the numbers referred to in the contract of the outage, and that parts built aircraft not appropriate supporting documentation planes.

 

The investigation showed that the planes purchased from Ukraine older than what the documents. Apparently four to five years. It may be asked, is it just these seven aircraft were sent to Ukraine for repairs and returned back. Even the serious suspicion that the entire documentation spoofed, and overhaul of the aircraft was not done! The investigation, according to our information, launched after continuous failures only reconditioned aircraft."

What you have here is "normal business", we find this in nearly all old weapons deals and even advanced weapons deals

For instance, Algeria had required that no Isreali equipment were fitted on their helicopters, they discovered that one of their furnisher installed Israeli equipments.

Aside from the ideological, political aspects, it was a violation of the contract and they went to court.

That the croatians want to go to court is one thing and is totally justified , but you can read that RT is saying much more than the croatian sources.

 

To go back to my first post in the thread, some of it is reliable, but the whole RT text remains to be prooved.

And as I said, if they want to go to court, it would be completly stupid from the croatian to destroy the prooves => that's what make the RT text doubtfull

It is a typical porpaganda technic to amplify and exacgerate an affair from the other side, because Russia did and is still doing a lot of similar things in their weapons deals.

 

I suggest you read the acig forum to see how much this practice are generalized ...

Edited March 26, 2016 by jeanba

[Snailman 517]

Nothing will happen ...  What happened when we trashed 50+ MiG-21, 12 MiG-23MF, 12 perfectly refurbished Su-22M3,  20+ MiG-29  -  then buy 13 Gripen for a sum equal to 10 years of military budget.  F*ing nothing.

 

In this case after a scandal, big silence will follow.

And as I said, if they want to go to court, it would be completly stupid from the croatian to destroy the prooves => that's what make the RT text doubtfull

It is a typical porpaganda technic to amplify and exacgerate an affair from the other side, because Russia did and is still doing a lot of similar things in their weapons deals.

 

Also keep in mind that culprits exist in Croatia as well who want to hide their corruption. As it was in our case - finally nothing happened, all was swept under the carpet.

[jeanba 1,920]

 

 

Also keep in mind that culprits exist in Croatia as well who want to hide their corruption. As it was in our case - finally nothing happened, all was swept under the carpet.

Ber carefull, I am not saying that "nothing happened", I am saying that RT's account is largely amplifying Ukraine's fault WHEN COMPARING WITH croatian accounts

I am saying that those things all the time

[Snailman 517]

Ber carefull, I am not saying that "nothing happened", I am saying that RT's account is largely amplifying Ukraine's fault WHEN COMPARING WITH croatian accounts

I am saying that those things all the time

 

It is either Ukraine's fault, or Ukraine's fault backed by corrupt croatians. I don't expect them to be stupid (not for free) so I suspect the second case. RT might be enlarging it - I don't mind. Let the world know not to  deal with the ukrainian mafia government.

 

I said, nothing happened in our case (the hungarian gripen scandal)  so in this case the same, will likely to happen. They get away with it.

[+Gepard 11,356]

Jeanba, i agree with you, that RT is a doubtfull source and that all what they say must be rechecked and confirmed.

You say, thet RT makes propaganda. True. I agree with you completly.

But the other sides makes it too.

 

In this very case of the deal between Croatia and the Ukraine it seems to be, that there went something wrong. It is not a good behaviour to cheat a business partner.

It was not good, when Russia sold Algeria old MiG-29 as new ones. and it is not good if the Ukrainians hide, that they took used spareparts from all over the world to"improve" the croatian MiG's. it seems to be, that some guys in the CIS states are still in "soviet mode" in their behavior with costumers.

 

I could tell you stories, what crap our "allies" sold us in the old days! Starting with HE granades without explosives over brand new vehicles, that had to go to our repair facilities to become operational and war test of our Mi-24 which were on a routine overhaul in the USSR and so on, and so on and so on. It was their way of making profit.

And for me it seems to be, that they do it up today with other costumers.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Gepard

[jeanba 1,920]

I agree, it's not right, it's just business

Ukraine and Russia are at war, so all sides make what they can to harm the other side.

And anyway, we do not know what is the REAL contract (as opposite to what was announced)

 

The croatian mig deal on acig :

http://www.acig.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6720

 

Including some pictures :

http://david-cherkasov.livejournal.com/54322.html

Edited March 28, 2016 by jeanba