SF2 Inactive SAMs Issue

[Mike Dora 171]

I recently realized that I don't seem to be seeing many SAMs in my various versions of SF2 (this has only taken me - how long?? ..duh) This only came up when I tried to install Spillone104's SA-2 Guideline pack for SF2. The pack installed OK, the SAMs are in the right folders, but none of them fire even when I have Air Defence set to "heavy".

 

On digging a bit deeper I notice that these Guideline models, and most all other installed SAMs, have the line "GroundObjectRole=STATIC_SAM" in their data.ini file. On the other hand, the *_Types.ini files for all the terrains I've checked, have "TargetType=SAM_LAUNCHER" for the SAM sites. Is this mismatch significant, is this what is stopping my SAMs from showing up? Interestingly Ravenclaw's  version of the Hawk missile has "GroundObjectRole=STATIC_AAA", and it _does_ work.

 

So, advice please my friends. How do I get the SAMs to fly in SF2 please?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

 

 

[tiopilotos 2,504]

There are some game engine limitations and particularities regarding the number of active SAMs in a single mission. In general even if you select heavy air defence, probably you will end up with minimum active SAM batteries or even none! In my installs there are many times especially in Israel and Desert terrains where there is completely lack of SAM batteries.

 

However you will get plenty of active SAM batteries if you fly over Vietnam or if you play campaigns. For a very strange reason, Vietnam is full of active SAMs.

[Wrench 9,556]

the air defenses HAVE to be built into the terrain. They just don't show up by magic.

 

in the types ini, they (any and all SAM launcher units) should read "STATIC_SAM" (SA-2, 3, 4, 5, 11, 12) Eve the SA6 can be set as STATIC. SA-9 can be mobile, as it's on a BRDM chasis.

 

your MANPADS (SA7 and etc) can be set as "MOBILE_AAA" in their data inis. They'll show up randmly replace gun-type AAA units.

 

basically, means that whoever set up the terrain (and the desert is infamous for this) left them out

[Snailman 517]

To add to this a few thoughts...

 

For example on the IsraelME the reds have SAM only on dates when historically "something" happened. In the meantime, equipment and map object appearance dates have many leaks, when nothing is placed.

 

Many of us try to fix this (some fellow modders research locations and dates). I am working on equipment, but freetime is limited till RL calms down. So I can't promise anything yet, but maybe a public beta test version maybe.

[Mike Dora 171]

Thanks Wrench

 

So if I understand correctly, all the big SAMs' individual data.ini files in the GroundObjects folder should show them as "STATIC_SAM", while the relevant entry in the terrain types.ini file should read like this?

 

[TargetType062]
Name=SAMLauncher
FullName=SAM Site
TargetType=STATIC_SAM
UseGroundObject=TRUE
ActiveYear=1965
TargetValue=100
RepairRate=0.555
StartDetectChance=20
StartIdentifiedChance=0
IncreaseDetectChanceKey=0
MaxVisibleDist=8000.0
DestroyedEffect=SmallRocketGroundExplosion
SecondaryEffect=VehicleFireEffect
SecondaryChance=50

 

Because I am finding that the first statement is generally true for the individual SAMs (Ravenclaw's working Hawk being an exception, being set up as STATIC_AAA), but all of the terrain type.ini files I looked at have this entry:

 

[TargetType062]
Name=SAMLauncher
FullName=SAM Site
TargetType=SAM_LAUNCHER
UseGroundObject=TRUE
ActiveYear=1965
TargetValue=100
RepairRate=0.555
StartDetectChance=20
StartIdentifiedChance=0
IncreaseDetectChanceKey=0
MaxVisibleDist=8000.0
DestroyedEffect=SmallRocketGroundExplosion
SecondaryEffect=VehicleFireEffect
SecondaryChance=50

 

I just tried changing the text in the DESERT_TYPES.ini file from the latter version to the former (ie to TargetType=STATIC_SAM), but I'm still not seeing any SAMs. Can you advise further please?

 

Mike

[Wrench 9,556]

that's almost correct, but incomplete.

 

Thusly:

 

[TargetType193]

Name=SA-3DL

FullName=SA-3 Goa Dual SAM 

TargetType=SAM_LAUNCHER

UseGroundObject=TRUE

GroundObjectType=SA-3_DL

ActiveYear=1962

TargetValue=100

RepairRate=0.555

StartDetectChance=20

StartIdentifiedChance=0

IncreaseDetectChanceKey=0

MaxVisibleDist=8000.0

DestroyedEffect=SmallRocketGroundExplosion

SecondaryEffect=VehicleFireEffect

SecondaryChance=100

 

 

the main problem with "direct call" AD units, is their associated radars (both search and track/targeing) will NOT show up on any RWR display (3-ring, vector, or TEWS). This is a major glitch in the game engine, and hasn't been (and never will be addressed). 

[Mike Dora 171]

Thanks Wrench

 

But I am still confused. How does it work, with the terrain type.ini file calling for SAM_LAUNCHER, while the individual SAMs' data.ini files class them as STATIC_SAM? Isn't this a contradiction?

 

Or does the inclusion of the additional line you show above "GroundObjectType=" resolve this seeming mismatch?

 

In other words, can you recommend please on how one should align the contents of the SAMs' data.ini files with the contents of the terrain types.ini (and maybe target.ini) files so that the right parameters are in the right places to make the blasted things actually show up and even fire?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 17, 2017 by Mike Dora

[Snailman 517]

No. The ground unit type belongs to the unit data.ini.  the target type belongs to the targets.ini  Between them are the types.ini  which defines target classes from unit classes. Here you can define a target out of every unit. Also there is the SAM RADAR and SAM LAUNCHER targets, which are generated. If you override this, the bug kicks in what Wrench has described.

 

Target generation chooses from the nations which are available on the map (nations.ini), out of that nation, equipment which is available by date will be randomized on the SAM / AAA sites which are also available (active) on that date. Both the SAM RADAR and LAUNCHER have to be available. EW RADAR also but those are not requirement to the SAM site to "work".

 

Note that unit availability class (COMMON, VERY_RARE etc) seems to work in conjunction with each other - like a priority class. I noticed that if all available units are very_rare then they have the same chance of appearance like if all units were COMMON... not sure about this, anyone else noticed?

[+Gepard 10,433]

Mike Dora, does your problem happen at all terrains, or only at certain terrains?

 

A common mistake made by terrain creation is to place to many air defence units at one target area.

The game engine accept only 16 units. If you have a lot of Flak and SAM, only 16 units are active. The others does not appear.

 

The next problem is the timeframe restriction. You should check, wheter you are flying in years with operative SAM systems.

 

Then you should check, wheter the SAM Radars appear in game. Without Radar no missile is fired.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Gepard

[Mike Dora 171]

In response to Gepard, this seems to be a universal problem with all my SF2 setups. I have 13 separate installs, some with multiple terrains, all built on a fully-merged full install of all the SF2 versions. When I think about it, the only SAMs I've seen firing, have been from warships in SF2NA & also in the Falklands terrain. I even seem able to cruise around over North Vietnam in a B-57 in 1968 without a single SAM coming up.

 

So I have to ask, is anyone else noticing this? To be honest I'm a wee bit surprised that I haven't noticed it before, but there you are. Reminds me of a piece of advice from a German friend many years ago: "you should always listen to the dogs that are not barking..  "

 

Now, back to specifics. What I did not understand before was this, the relationship between the <groundobject>_data.ini entry "GroundObjectRole", and the <terrain>_type.ini entry "TargetType".  From Snailman's reply, I now think that they are completely separate, so that a missile defined as a "STATIC_SAM" in its data.ini file should be compatible with a "SAM_LAUNCHER" entry in the terrain types.ini file. Is that correct?

 

Lastly, given the universality of my issue I'm now wondering if I have something wrong with a "shared" parameter somewhere in the fully merged install.

 

So again, has anyone else had this problem, or is everyone else happily getting shot at by SAMs?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[+Gepard 10,433]

The term "SAM_Launcher" give the game engine the order to place at this position a SAM system. Not which SAM System. The first entry in a target area related to SAM is  "SAM_RADAR". The game engine decides randomly which type of SAM Radars is set on this place  (depends on availability and year). The SAM_RADAR type is connected (networked) with a specified SAM missile type. (Fansong Radar is always networked with SA-2. Flatface is networked with SA-3, StraightFlash always with SA-6 and so on)

 

In the _data.ini of the SAM_Radar you will find the line:

NetworkType=SA-3

 

 

If no SAM missiles are fired in game it could have the reason, that the radar is not working (check wheter there are SAM Radars on the map), then it could be, that the missiles in the weapondata.ini have a different designation than in the, lets say, Fansong_data.ini line "NetworkType=SA-2"

 

 

An other question. If you fly over North Vietnam, as you said above, do you has tried to press F7 button to see the groundobjects? If you do this, do you see missiles on the launchers? Do you see SAM Radars? Or are there no missile launchers at all?

[stuntman 170]

In response to Gepard, this seems to be a universal problem with all my SF2 setups. I have 13 separate installs, some with multiple terrains, all built on a fully-merged full install of all the SF2 versions. When I think about it, the only SAMs I've seen firing, have been from warships in SF2NA & also in the Falklands terrain. I even seem able to cruise around over North Vietnam in a B-57 in 1968 without a single SAM coming up.

 

So I have to ask, is anyone else noticing this? To be honest I'm a wee bit surprised that I haven't noticed it before, but there you are. Reminds me of a piece of advice from a German friend many years ago: "you should always listen to the dogs that are not barking..  "

 

Now, back to specifics. What I did not understand before was this, the relationship between the <groundobject>_data.ini entry "GroundObjectRole", and the <terrain>_type.ini entry "TargetType".  From Snailman's reply, I now think that they are completely separate, so that a missile defined as a "STATIC_SAM" in its data.ini file should be compatible with a "SAM_LAUNCHER" entry in the terrain types.ini file. Is that correct?

 

Lastly, given the universality of my issue I'm now wondering if I have something wrong with a "shared" parameter somewhere in the fully merged install.

 

So again, has anyone else had this problem, or is everyone else happily getting shot at by SAMs?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

Same for me. The only time I got SAM is in IcelandNA map. 

[+Gepard 10,433]

Test mission over IsraelME stock terrain.

 

SA-6 site

 

SA-6 firing

 

SA-6 missile on the way

 

missile is coming in

 

missile hit Nesher

[Mike Dora 171]

Gepard,

 

Many thanks, your comments have helped me investigate further. By running SEAD missions over North Vietnam, I have verified that the SAM radars and launchers are indeed present, please see screenshots:

 

 

The problem now is, as you'll see from the parameters in the bottom RH corner, even though I'm within 5nm of the SAM site (effectively flying right over the heads of the operators), the missiles still aren't flying. I have also found that SAM sites do exist in other terrains too, but they're not firing either.

 

So I'm more and more suspecting I have some parameter wrong in some "global" SF2 file somewhere, or perhaps even a file missing. BTW all AAMs & ASMs are working OK. 

 

Can you or anyone advise please? This is very frustrating, but I feel we are getting close to the answer.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[PFunk 198]

Mike Dora, does your problem happen at all terrains, or only at certain terrains?

 

A common mistake made by terrain creation is to place to many air defence units at one target area.

The game engine accept only 16 units. If you have a lot of Flak and SAM, only 16 units are active. The others does not appear.

 

The next problem is the timeframe restriction. You should check, wheter you are flying in years with operative SAM systems.

 

Then you should check, wheter the SAM Radars appear in game. Without Radar no missile is fired.

 

I never knew the hard number until just now.  Thanks.  This is going to definitely affect how I look at terrains from here on.

[Mike Dora 171]

I think I may have found it folks.

 

As I said before, the SAMs _were_ working in SF2NA. Comparing my install of that version with the other SF2 mod installs, I found that it had the MissileObject.ini file present in its Objects folder. So I copied that file to the other versions' Objects folders and Lo! the SAMs are flying!

 

My first attempt under this regime, a 1967 F-105 SEAD mission over North Vietnam, drew launches of 5 Guidelines of various types, one of which hit my Thud. Testing in various other terrains I find that the SAMs are there and working too, though sometimes some of them seem slow to launch. On the other hand I'm already finding that Gaskins and Gainfuls can be deadly. I'm also finding what Wrench hinted at, that some terrains seem to have quirky implementation of SAM sites, eg radars without launchers or launchers without radars.

 

I don't know why this fix should work, but it does.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Snailman 517]

Most interesting, because missileobject ini contains nothing which could be affecting missile operation... it contains effects and environment variables which has nothing to do with unit placement.

SAM target areas are messed up sometimes. Faulty placement is caused by mostly the unit availability dates - radar has correct date but it's missile launcher does not. or vice versa. Or the SAM area is faulty.

 

First try stock SAM. Then try mods... like RSSW type missiles which were corrected. Damn that I have no time right now... ((((

[Mike Dora 171]

Thanks Snailman

 

As a footnote, since I managed to get the SAMs working, I installed eburger68's SAM update package (thanks Eric), and now when I fly the 1968 F-105D N Vietnam SEAD mission I'm getting upwards of a dozen SAMS flying if I hang around too long. It's actually quite scary! Also installed eburger68's AAA package (Eric, thanks again) so one ends up getting lots of flak bursts of different colors plus streams of tracers rising plus constant radio calls of "SAM launch! SAM launch".

 

Gives me intense respect for the guys who went there and did it for real. Then went there again and again.

 

For us it's only a game.

 

Mike