Typhoon vs 2 Eagles...

[snapple2993 0]

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=673262005

 

Apparently this is old, but I just heard about it.

[BUFF 8]

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=673262005

 

Apparently this is old, but I just heard about it.

It's very old or it's a rerun of something that happened about a year ago iirc.

Even more impressive when you consider that the engines aren't being operated near their planned thrust yet. Initial operational capability isn't due for another year or so.

 

Of course it may have been different if they were C's ...?

[subarug 0]

There is a slightly larger article in this months (U.S.A) issue of the UK pub Air Forces Monthly.

[PG_Raptor 0]

I heard about that a while ago, I think. Doesn't really matter, though :)

 

I doesn't really surprise me though. I mean, everything about the Eurofighter is designed for maneuverability and precision. Performance and stability are inverses of each other in plane design. The Eurofighter has so much performance that it cannot be flown by human alone. It needs a computer just to keep the thing level. Sounds like a fun plane to me :D

[subarug 0]

I heard about that a while ago, I think.  Doesn't really matter, though :)

 

I doesn't really surprise me though.  I mean, everything about the Eurofighter is designed for maneuverability and precision.  Performance and stability are inverses of each other in plane design.  The Eurofighter has so much performance that it cannot be flown by human alone.  It needs a computer just to keep the thing level.  Sounds like a fun plane to me :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

This is true.... Just like the F-117, F-16 and many others... The future of fighter design is in instability... If you read some of DARPA's projects for an advanced UCAV of fighter proprtions , with a lack of human pilot and placement of vernier (spelling?) thrusters it is highly unstable and can perform manuv. no human could withstand.

 

Pretty cool if you ask me.

 

The Zero-G hydralic suit should allow our pilots a little more leway with their bodies,

[snapple2993 0]

I'm dreading the day when pilots are deemed unworthy of aerial combat.

 

Maybe the new movie "Stealth" will help the public opinion in this..... although it looks like a very lame movie.

 

Yes, BUFF, this incident was a year ago, but seeing that you are a Scotsman, you got access to the info before we did.....

Edited July 13, 2005 by snapple2993

[+Dave 2,322]

Well it turns out this is utter BS as the encounter never happened. Too many holes is the story.

 

"A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, "

 

That is the first clue it is BS. F-15's just dont go flying around jumping planes at random. Or even locking them up with thier radar. There are serious rules for mock dogfighting and they are planned well in advance. You just don't yell "Fights On" then it happens. The pilots would get into very serious trouble doing it. Rules man their are rules for that. Also the fact they were F-15E's would never attempt that against the Eurofighter. Yeah that source has been long discredited awhile ago.

[BUFF 8]

"A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, "

 

That is the first clue it is BS.  F-15's just dont go flying around jumping planes at random. Or even locking them up with thier radar. There are serious rules for mock dogfighting and they are planned well in advance. You just don't yell "Fights On" then it happens. The pilots would get into very serious trouble doing it.  Rules man their are rules for that. Also the fact they were F-15E's would never attempt that against the Eurofighter. Yeah that source has been long discredited awhile ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Impromptu bounces/intercepts do happen in the UK regularly at least within the RAF community (& I'm fairly certain between RAF & USAF). However, we aren't talking about real close-in knife fighting style & they are certainly capable of talking to each other & setting up a few rules.

It's quite possible that it happened but not quite as described ...

[+Dave 2,322]

Never happened,USAF has very strict rules and even impromtu knife fights are forbidden. I know alot of the crew chiefs out at Lakenheath as they came out of my unit here. They confirmed it never happened.

[BUFF 8]

and even impromtu knife fights are forbidden.

I did say that it wouldn't be a knife fight ... certainly nothing within 1 nautical mile without briefing.

[Pete 0]

This debate seems to be getting a bit heated.

At the end of the day its the men not the machines & we all know the RAF is the best airforce in the world!

[+Dave 2,322]

RAF is the best airforce in the world!

 

Actually try the Israeli AF, the USAF, then the RAF.....

[snapple2993 0]

Actually try the Israeli AF, the USAF, then the RAF.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually try the USN, USMC, IAF, USAF, then the RAF

[subarug 0]

Now we are totally getting into opions here somewhat :)

 

My boss who is ex special forces and has participated in countless operations and engagements told me that after all his years at Red Flag/Green Flag the ballziest pilots were the West Germans and RAF,simply because for the most part they dont necessarily follow all the operational rules that the US follows.

 

One time on a very very cloudy day Flight Ops were cancelled. He was with a crew of a few people in a ZSU-22 I think it was and they got radio comm, that there were 6 bogies at about 5000 ft, which was strange because they were at six... so they got out and about 6 RAF Tornados were about 10 ft off the ground pasing under power lines!

 

He did say however if there ever was an Eject distress call it was most likley from the West Germans or the RAF.

 

Interesting!

[snapple2993 0]

Hmm, Russian pilots are often criticized for flying their aircraft at what western pilots consider "dangerous" g's, speeds, and altitudes... Russian pilots reply: "It is okay, the aircraft can handle it".

 

Heard this while watching a documentary on the Fulcrum on the Military channel.

 

We all know that the ruskies tend to have some problems keeping aloft in their Fulcrums at airshows.

 

Isrealis... probably the best dogfighters. USAF.... best equipment. Russians.... totally f***ed in the head. USN NAVAIR.... pretty good all around, which makes them the best IMO, but I'm also biased.

[Mustanghino 0]

and the Indian Air Force.... ????

I read that in a trip in India a squadron of F-15C/D met a squadron of Su-30SMK (maybe SMK II) to make simulated dogfights.

well can you ask at the USAF pilots the result of the match?

 

For me the quality hit-parade is:

1) Israel AF

2) USAF

3) RAF

4) Armeè dell'Air

5) USNAVY/MC

6) India (please without MiG-21 and olds plane)

7) Turkey

8) Saudi Arabia

9) Germany

10) Taiwan

11) Korea

12) Italy

13) Japan (Ok F-15 but where are the fighter-bombers???????)

[JediMaster 451]

Don't read too much into that Indian engagement, either. That was carefully staged to test the IAF's setup. They had GCI, AWACS, and multiple groups of fighters up while the USAF had nothing but a few F-15s operating different tactics than usual with no GCI or AWACS support. Their defeat is almost foregone in that case.

 

 

 

The Jedi Master

[+Dave 2,322]

What Jedi Master said is 100% fact. It was carefully set up to test the IAF under ideal conditions where the USAF was using Chinese and maybe Pakistani tactics. So do not take any stock in the results.

[+Jug 99]

As a former USAF pilot, I would be most distressed if USAF pilots ever entered into a impromptu dogfight with anyone. Not like they're not up for the fight, but they are supposed to be more disciplined. The US taxpayer expects professionals in the flying business and is unwilling to hand over expensive, powerful jets to anyone who is not capable of meeting this discipline standard. This sort of activity is not condoned at any level, by any US service. It may happen, but the pilots involved usually end up looking back on the last flight of their military career. I doubt if the encounter ever took place.

 

If the story is true about the encounter, remember, also, that the F-15 came into the US inventory how many years ago? The Typhoon isn't even out of the chocks yet. The US is already moved past the capabilities of the F-15 while the rest of the planet is just now catching up.

 

Let's keep in mind that there are tigers and targets in every Air Force. The difference maker is the discipline, training, and determination level in the pilot in the fight. The nation they serve is irrelevent and there are plenty of real life combat records that indicate that the hardware is of less importance as well.

 

The best operational dog-fighter in the world today is the SU-27 (SU-30) hands down. (ever seen a "cobra" maneuver)

 

It is important to remember that the manned attack aircraft is living on borrowed time. Drones can do just as well without the risk of loss of the aviator. Diving into the target is no longer Medal of Honor action, merely an additional tactic. Flight simulator pilots will be needed in the future.

 

Guess what, we are the future of combat aviation. Wish I was younger......

[marlin 4]

Yeah right I highly suspect the unmanned aircraft drones will turn out the same way guided missiles did in the 50s and 60s combat aircraft still carry guns today and I garantee you they will still have pilots 100yrs from now.

Edited August 14, 2005 by marlin

[+ST0RM 145]

I've heard of this happening from both RAF and USAFE pilots during my time at Ramstein. It does happen, but as USAFMTL said, the USAF isnt allowed to jump into a fight, due to safety restrictions. However, I'm sure that it does happen and not reported.

 

I do remember back during my Combat Talon days and we were out over the Salt Lake ranges and we got jumped by a pair of Vipers from Hill AFB. Our EWO lit them up pretty quick and we were left alone for the rest of the mission.

 

Lastly, beating a heavy F-15E isnt a huge feat. Especially if they dont know that it's "Fights On".

 

Storm

[Allo 0]

Actually try the USN, USMC, IAF, USAF, then the RAF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I found this and thought it might shed some light on the subject.

Intresting read. Thought I'd share.

Click HERE to find out who has the best pilots.

PS. Remember this is just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to one.

Edited September 10, 2005 by Allo

[Pete 0]

Sorry mate

 

Have read the report.The RAF still has the best pilots in the world.Followed closely

by the USAF then the Russians.Perhaps not the russian pilots but more what they fly.

 

Cheers Pete

[subarug 0]

I Give a lot of credit to the Israeli Air Force... This partially because they have had frequent conflict opportunities to keep the scores up.

 

Amo's confirmed 39 air to air kills is the record to beat I believe

 

 

(from osprey's Mirage and Nesher Aces)