A Different ME 262 Scenario Suggestion

[RIBob 39]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, Jel said:

The default EAW theatre is a 640x320 grid of terrain tiles. When you fly EAW and chose a target and a home base you see a map with the targets and bases on it.
They were put in their positions on the grid using an editor which can add new targets, and delete or move existing ones.

When you take off from your home base you will see hangars, AAA guns, barracks, fuel dumps and the like. These are the "TMods", and they were added to the your home base and placed in position and orientation using the same editor.

When you fly you may see ships, trains, trucks and armoured vehicles. These are also "TMods".

You may also be attacking a radar tower or a warehouse. Again these are "TMods" which need to be added and positioned by the target editor.

There are other TMods such as trees, forests, houses, farms, cathedrals, windmills.
These can be added and positioned using the target editor, but many are positioned on terrain tiles using a different editor.

So if you note the numbers of targets and TMods in EAW1.2, and compare that with the numbers in EAWPro or ETO2018 you can see how many new targets and TMods have been added and positioned by VBH and Ray. This was time consuming work. The figures were quoted to recognise that.

I would add that Ray has used my target editor to make SPAW, ModSqadBoB, in addition to his ETO2015. Moggy has used it for IRAQ , Dunkirk, and Switzerland. Pobs used it to make Spanish Air War and a Burma theatre.  I used it to upgrade a number of older theatres such as DAW, Malta, Carrier Air War, and Pearl Harbour. I also made experimental limited tileset versions of the 1914-18 Western front, and the BoB theatre.
The files we created have worked flawlessly, and I am justifiably proud of the reliability of my work.

Jel

Thank you for the concise, yet full, explanation.   I appreciate your taking the time to do so.

I assume "TMod" is simply shorthand for "Terrain Modification"?  Somewhere, in the dim past, and perhaps in another location altogether, I suggested that the first use of a "shorthand" term, or abbreviation be immediately proceeded by a complete spelling of the term, followed by its' contraction (in parens) so that the term would be instantly understood even by people such as myself who are not used to using it.  

You--and others-- have every right to be proud of your efforts, and products.

[rotton50 19]

As stated a couple of posts back, TMODs have nothing to do with the terrain they're placed on so "Terrain Modification" would be an incorrect assumption.

Terrain Model (TMOD) would be the correct designation.

[Jel 37]

....and their 3dz file names begin with "TMod".

[VonBeerhofen 63]

Let me be a little more precise RiBob,

a TMOD is the groupname of 3D ground objects, each groundobject consists of a number of TMOD**.3DZ files which usually have a texture pointer in it which points to the *******.TPC it will use. Both files are needed in EAW, if one's missing weird things may happen and can even crash your game. Each object has 4 states which are switched by the game and each state is an actual 3D object. These different states have their own letter added in the 3DZ filename and are

TMOD**D for destroyed detail

TMOD**H for high detail (for nearby view)

TMOD**L for low detail (for far away view and using a simpler model and 128x128 pixel drawing in v1.2 to speed up FPS)

TMOD**S for shadow detail

The *******.TPC is usually a compressed  *******.PCX drawing in 256x256 pixels and in stock EAW always 8 bit. If you modify the drawing (also known as a skin) you essentially change the obect's looks. Editing these files isn't straightforward but can be learned if you have the proper tools installed. Easiest is probably reskinning objects but requires some experoence  and some skill with paint programs.

Editing 3DZ files is a lot harder to do if you want to do it right, but we have a nice tool for that too.

VonBeerhofen

[VonBeerhofen 63]

On 3/2/2019 at 10:44 PM, rotton50 said:

I am floored by this comment.

Serious question.

What possible reason could there be for this advice?

 

 

 

The reason is to warn newbies that learning to mod EAW isn't easy and requires a lot of knowledge, time and an experienced tutor who's willing to spend his own time on teaching.

VonBeerhofen

[rotton50 19]

THAT it really crappy advice.

We're trying to keep a 20 year old game alive. Dissuading guys from joining the modding community is NOT the way to to that.

Plus, as Jel and I have made clear, over, and over, and over and over again, the editors take 80% to 90% of the effort out of learning how to mod.

Hexediting is a different deal. That is daunting, even for those of us who know what we're doing, but we don't do things that way anymore.

 

[Jel 37]

So why did you not comment in general terms to dissuade newbies from modding instead of singling out the use of my editors.

The fact that you did that suggests that you were implying that there are reliability problems with my editors, whereas you are now saying that the problem is due to the complexity of EAW itself rather than with the editors.

[rotton50 19]

meh, nothin' new, Jel.

Some people are just afraid of competition.

Recall the claims of hard drive crashes about 15 years ago?

This is just more of the same.

But I think we've made our point and the members are free to make up their own minds.

FWIW, I'd love it if one or two would step forward and tell us they're interested in learning to mod.

[MarkEAW 63]

Just zip up all the tools and then zip up all the readmes and post them for download.

If people want to work with them with the included instructions they will. Thats how it always was done in the olden days of EAW.

Then those tools and instructions got updated with answers to questions people have, then re uploaded.

Just name the zips the same name as for an example. 160Tools.zip 160ToolReadmes.zip

Then when you update the information you just re-up the same file name with the new info and mediafire will allow you to replace the old file but keep the old (same) link intact. (even hits to the file remain).

Simple, no waiting for people to ask and people will download and experiment until they have a question to where you point them to ask and how in the readme's.

[rotton50 19]

Mark, here's the problem with that approach.

Basically there's two guys who know how the editors work. What you're asking is for us to spend quite a bit of time putting together help files WITHOUT knowing if anyone will ever use the editors.

It's not like we've just recently put out the welcome mat for the community here and at SimHQ to see if there are any takers. So far in the five years that Jel and I have encouraged new modders to step forward, I can't think of a single inquiry.

That doesn't mean we've given up but we're also not going to spend time working on something that will probably never happen.

I hope you understand.

[MarkEAW 63]

I understand.

Its like how I made my EAW Help Site,. I just had fun doing it. Something I wanted to get documented long a ago, but it took about 14 or so years to get to it and 5 years to make.  I didn't and still don't really know the impact its made. Some have been receptive though.

Anyhow , how many editors are their? 

Are they ready to go with a necessary files in place?

Are they garnished off into their own zips, or is it a mess?

Post them without much in the way of instructions, and just have simple readme's directing modders to e-mails or simhq eaw forum for questions.

This way perhaps you can start with a simple editor and publicly document it.

If you don't try, the future of UAW modding with be cut off and forgotten. You do see that , right?

[rotton50 19]

Of course I see it.

The question is, do we take time away from our own enjoyment to publish a set of documents that will probably never be read by other members, let alone acted on?

I won't speak for Mr. Jelly but I know that I'm not interested in that. I'd much rather have a member approach me because then I know there's real interest in learning. So far there hasn't been any interest, which is fine, most members just want to fly.

 

 

[RIBob 39]

22 hours ago, rotton50 said:

Mark, here's the problem with that approach.

Basically there's two guys who know how the editors work. What you're asking is for us to spend quite a bit of time putting together help files WITHOUT knowing if anyone will ever use the editors.

It's not like we've just recently put out the welcome mat for the community here and at SimHQ to see if there are any takers. So far in the five years that Jel and I have encouraged new modders to step forward, I can't think of a single inquiry.

That doesn't mean we've given up but we're also not going to spend time working on something that will probably never happen.

I hope you understand.

None of us are getting any younger.  When--not if-- the two people who know how to use these Editors pass away, then the ability to describe how they are used passes with them.

The extinction of such knowledge does the community great harm. 

[RIBob 39]

23 hours ago, MarkEAW said:

I understand.

Its like how I made my EAW Help Site,. I just had fun doing it. Something I wanted to get documented long a ago, but it took about 14 or so years to get to it and 5 years to make.  I didn't and still don't really know the impact its made. Some have been receptive though.

Anyhow , how many editors are their? 

Are they ready to go with a necessary files in place?

Are they garnished off into their own zips, or is it a mess?

Post them without much in the way of instructions, and just have simple readme's directing modders to e-mails or simhq eaw forum for questions.

This way perhaps you can start with a simple editor and publicly document it.

If you don't try, the future of UAW modding with be cut off and forgotten. You do see that , right?

Mark, you will never know how much benefit to the EAW sim your Site has made.  There are uncounted people playing the Sim that we will never hear from on forums like this one (and other Forums) that are playing the Sim thanks to your painstaking creation of your Help Site.

If I had not stumbled across your Help Site, I could have never begun to play the EAW Sim.  That's a fact.  Your helpful instructions about how to set-up the game in modern computers made all the difference in the world to me, and I'm sure, many, many others.  I regret that these many EAW players who owe you a debt--as do all EAW simmers--have not taken the time to thank you.  May I thank you, on my behalf, at least? 

Just my own opinion, but if EAW is still alive, it is mostly due to your efforts to help it along.  Sure, there are Modders who do this and that, but your Help Site provides the means for people just encountering the game, or perhaps wanting to re-experience the game having found their old CD, a way to do so.

Mark, IMHO, the real reason why EAW is not extinct is because of your efforts, and your Help Site.

Thank you so much for helping me, long ago.  I'm sure you will continue to be helpful to newbies like me.

I think that other people should be forthcoming in their thanks to you.  I >>hope<<, they will do so; you definitely are deserving of public acknowledgement of your contribution to EAW. 

All I can say, personally, is 

Thanks!

Edited March 8, 2019 by RIBob

[rotton50 19]

14 hours ago, RIBob said:

None of us are getting any younger.  When--not if-- the two people who know how to use these Editors pass away, then the ability to describe how they are used passes with them.

The extinction of such knowledge does the community great harm. 

I made it perfectly cleat that the first guy to step forward will be showered with help from both Jel and me but there's no point spending time on this if no one is interested.

Since you do show an interest in the damage models for the level bombers would you like to learn more about that particular area?

Edited March 8, 2019 by rotton50

[MarkEAW 63]

@RIBob. As always thank you.

Regarding the latest topic in this thread "Tools":
If the tools and their source code don't get released, there will be no future updates, no new modders or fixing/enhancing the tools.
As Rotton50 said he see the negative outcome in his post , its clear to me they intend to let the know how and ability to die with them.

 

It will be up to new programmers to devise new tools. All taking time that would be better off used elsewhere in EAW future.
My stance is still the same: release the tools and let people use them and write up there own notes and ask questions before it is too late.

 

To be fair Jel said he has to much on his plate and busy with Real Life events to be bothered with this. But it doesn't change my thoughts on what needs to take place.

[Sky High 166]

It's a big ask to expect people, who have already given us much more of their blood and treasure than anyone could ever have reasonably expected, to devote yet more of their current lives to write up documentation for a body of people that doesn't appear to exist, and is increasingly unlikely to. 

On the other hand, EAW has already been built up to be perhaps very near full potential and is unquestionably now, with all the planesets and terrains, a package sufficient to entertain this punter, at least, for a lifetime if the hardware allows. Perhaps the game has very nearly reached maturity? There may be little tweaks that are possible, but currently the AI, the FMs, the weaponry and the details such as the groundobjects (which our two experts are still improving) and terrains seem close to optimum and altering them is no guarantee of improvement. Maturity doesn't imply death-people will continue to play games such as EAW and BoBII long after they cease to be modified. It's just that, with the exception of the on-line flyers, there won't be much public interaction, which in itself is a pity, of course. 

I'm very happy with what we've got. In a world that little respects true quality, as opposed to fickle flash, it is almost incredible that we are still having this conversation after so many years and that we now have such a wonderful game. Maybe, in the future, a prince will come, who knows programming and coding and other voodoo and who is willing to assume the mantle for further development of EAW, such as it might be. In that case, your information base will prove invaluable. 

[rwatson 26]

Skyhigh

Looking in the forums I see a lot of old friends  and that's pretty much the state of EAW today older pilots who flew EAW in the early days and have stayed the course with our old girl..some have made great strides with her and brought us where we are today ,,But it seems we aren't attracting younger players who have their consoles and the graphically newer sims ..what we have is a crew who are around 70 years old and I fear once we pass EAW will be a footnote in gaming history like the old Mario Brothers something that belongs in the computer museum..Now we might have some differences but we all have respect for EAW and enjoy it in our own ways 

[Sky High 166]

Correct, Russ, and although I'm a tender spring-chicken of a little under 60 myself, I still grew up in an era when the Second World War wasn't that long over and its repercussions still echoed loudly. I read comic-books in which the story-lines were primarily of battles within WW2, many featuring colourful and attractive representations of combatting fighter-planes, very reminiscent of what we have in EAW. What I experienced must be relatively more intense for those of an age-group closer to the war.

We're now in an era where many seem to resent the very freedoms many sacrificed their lives for, and when patriotism is considered a negative value. Our type of game would not have the same attraction for people who think like that. There are many also who do not think like that, of course, but they're attracted to more visually appealing games such as IL-2 and its more modern offspring and good luck to them. This game will inevitably die with its present enthusiasts, but that's the way of things, isn't it? 

Anyhow, that's already too much philosophy!

[rwatson 26]

Points well made Sky High,,i stay with EAW because it has what the newer sims don't have and it has a feeling of soul..i fly IL-2 and the newer great battles series but I'm always drawn back to my girl for a good fly..As you say patriotism is a lost ideal today,,we are more concerned with political correctness,I'm an old marine who served two tours in Vietnam and still snap a salute when putting up our flag each morning and get tears when our anthem is played ,,in EAW I fly planes from all sides and give respects to warriors from both sides who fought for what they believed in..I guess the attraction is being able to relive a part of our distant past and to feel the magic of EAW and the gifts the modders have brought to it..To all them i offer thanks for keeping the magic alive

[Sky High 166]

It's all about one-world government now, with open borders and free emigration to better nations, but where are people going to emigrate to if the world becomes run by one government and that government turns sour? 

[rotton50 19]

7 hours ago, MarkEAW said:

@RIBob. As always thank you.

Regarding the latest topic in this thread "Tools":
If the tools and their source code don't get released, there will be no future updates, no new modders or fixing/enhancing the tools.
As Rotton50 said he see the negative outcome in his post , its clear to me they intend to let the know how and ability to die with them.

 

It will be up to new programmers to devise new tools. All taking time that would be better off used elsewhere in EAW future.
My stance is still the same: release the tools and let people use them and write up there own notes and ask questions before it is too late.

 

 

The reason Jel and I come here is about 25% to show off new stuff and 75% to refute these misstatements and as I said recently to another "mis-stater", it is becoming quite irksome.

We've had this discussion enough times over at SimHQ that is really is disingenuous of you to repeat the misstatements here.

To clear things up for members here who don't also frequent SimHQ I will reiterate:

The Code Group has the "keys to the kingdom" so to speak, in that we hold the source code for EAW. That means we can make major changes to the game that no other modding group can do. The proof is in the pudding if you fly other development lines and then try the 1.6 line. I won't go into all the details, suffice to say the difference is astounding. (That's not to say members should fly one or the other exclusively)

The reason the source code is restricted to those of us in the Code Group is that the original agreement, about 4 owners ago, includes a clause that we will never gain profit from our work. If we charge for our mods the agreement is rescinded, thus ending all further development.

The problem with releasing the source code to the public is that any unscrupulous modder could then start charging for his work. We have no intention of risking that.

We've talked this over many times at SimHQ. Some of those discussions got pretty heated because other people have other opinions, but ours is the one that counts and as HONORABLE people, we intend to stick to the agreement, no matter the accusations that we're hiding something.

So PLEASE stop accusing us of being an insular clique. It is a LIE.

We are always on the lookout for HONORABLE new members for the group who are willing to abide by the agreement. That can be documented in many threads over at SimHQ. You have already told us that, if you were able, you would release the source code on the belief that it wouldn't matter due to the age of the game. You are entitled to that opinion but you are not entitle to the singular action of releasing the code based on that opinion.

Hence you will never be a member of that group.

FWIW, it seems every time we reach a truce the same couple of guys tear open the wound.

Cut it out.

BTW, I'm releasing a massive new aircraft inventory package in the near future. A BETA version is being put through it's paces. Included with the package will be many of the editors that we're also being accused of hoarding.

So much for conspiracy theories.

[rotton50 19]

4 minutes ago, Sky High said:

It's all about one-world government now, with open borders and free emigration to better nations, but where are people going to emigrate to if the world becomes run by one government and that government turns sour? 

Hence our 2nd amendment, which is unique in the world, written by men who understood that governments ALWAYS tend toward over reach.

Yamamoto famously warned the Japanese high command "In America there is a gun hiding behind each blade of grass".

He wasn't far off.

[rwatson 26]

And his prediction "' I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve " and our Marines and sailors prove him right and all our Allies stood tall

Edited March 9, 2019 by rwatson
bad spelling

[Sky High 166]

Make sure you hang on to your guns. In Europe, the only ones with guns are the cops-and-robbers.