Use of radar combat mode on distances farther than 10 NM on planes other than the stock F-14A Tomcat

[Foug84 8]

Hey
I'd like to ask a question about radar combat. While long range (>10 NM) BVR capacity is quite poor for stock planes (at the exception of the F-14A Tomcat, where it seems that the Phoenix missiles works), it seems i can't use missiles on modern "mod" planes on distances farther than 10 nautical miles, the radar combat mode distance limit (i'm thinking about the use of the Meteor BVRAAM on JAT's Rafale, neither can I launch a fox-3 in a maddog move ,launching it in a "fire or forget" move) I'd like to know if it's a hard lock in the software and in the mods or if it's something that is easily fixable and that I should have figured out alone by now, in that case i'm sorry for bothering you.

[Wrench 9,847]

Ever heard of 'boresight' mode??

[+EricJ 4,245]

Which mod aircraft are you having issues with? It seems odd that you can't fire at aircraft beyond 10NM.

[+streakeagle 871]

I am guessing that the radar is not being used correctly. Use search mode to find contacts at long range. Use the appropriate key shortcut or mapped button to move the radar cursor to a detected contact. Use the appropriate key shortcut or mapped button to lock on, which can generally be done at ranges greater than 10 nm for most US/NATO aircraft and later USSR/Warsaw Pact aircraft. The auto search/combat and/or boresight modes are all limited to about 5 or 10 nm depending on the aircraft. But even the long range manual lock has range limits that are usually less than the max search range possible. For instance, a radar with a max search range of 30 or 40 nm might only be able to track/illuminate targets at 20 or 30 nm. Whereas monster like the F-15 can detect contacts at 80 nm or greater, but can't track them at those ranges... which is ok since the AIM-7F/M used by the F-15A isn't going to fly that far anyway. Most SARH missiles are only effective at ranges less than 10 nm anyway, unless you are at high altitudes and/or high Mach numbers when you launch. I prefer to use AIM-7 missiles at ranges where they have been historically effective, which also seems to work fairly well within the game: 8 nm or less, preferably a head-on shot with high closure rate or less than 5 nm for a stern shot. Later Desert Storm AIM-7M BVR shots were about 35 to 45 % successful, but those were generally fired at ranges of 8 to 12 nm. Vietnam had more successful BVR shots than originally claimed because the "Combat Tree" system that allowed F-4s to use enemy IFF to confirm targets was classified, but even the declassified shots weren't that many and were all taken at ranges less than 10 nm, generally 7-8 nm with the AIM-7E2. In the game, the AIM-7E2 is horrible for head on BVR shots, it works much better as a stern chase dogfight missile, whereas the slightly earlier AIM-7E is great for head on shots and horrible for stern chase shots. 

[Foug84 8]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Which mod aircraft are you having issues with? It seems odd that you can't fire at aircraft beyond 10NM.

Well, i'm mostly interessed in JAT81500's Rafales  which have the MICA EM and METEOR that should be able to fire beyond 10 NM. There is a combat mode that goes up to 10 NM (which is the only way to lock radar guided missiles) and a TWS mode (which can't lock missiles even within the 10 NM range the combat mode has, so it's more of a search mode in the practical sense)
 

Quote

Most SARH missiles are only effective at ranges less than 10 nm anyway, unless you are at high altitudes and/or high Mach numbers when you launch.

I don't have trouble using boresight mode for AIM-7 in the stock F-4 for example in the 10 NM range or for the Super 530 for the Mirage F1 C200 , in a boresight 7 NM mode (which seems to be short against bulky aircraft but enough against fast small targets before switching to heat-seeking missiles)

 

Quote

I am guessing that the radar is not being used correctly. Use search mode to find contacts at long range.  Use the appropriate key shortcut or mapped button to move the radar cursor to a detected contact. Use the appropriate key shortcut or mapped button to lock on

I'm using the search mode to find the contacts at longer range, and i don't have problem with it. For aircraft with a boresight mode (F-4), i usually point, use ACQUIRE_RADAR_TARGET and release the SARH when i'm within the 10 NM "range" (obviously closer when the target is not a big clumsy drone the size of a maritime patrol aircraft flying gently) and there are no problems.
For the more "modern" planes (which are mods), I find however difficult to use more modern missiles at distances farther than 10NM. I might however use the radar totally wrong as you pointed, which may be entirely possible (even if I tried to browse the forum to search for answers which work obviously better for the older planes). I can acquire targets at distances far greater than 10NM (with the red cheat marker box showing at 40-30NM) however. But for modded planes and modern missiles that would be able to shoot over 10 NM at big clumsy non-manoeuvring bombers-drones being used very gently for the missile, i find quite impossible to shoot beyond 10NM with modded "active radar homing" missiles, even if I can, in the case of the Rafale, shoot the MICA IR like a R-27ET extended range infrared guided missile at distances about 15-20 miles when the target is slow and clumsy
 

[Stratos 3,191]

3 hours ago, streakeagle said:

I am guessing that the radar is not being used correctly. Use search mode to find contacts at long range. Use the appropriate key shortcut or mapped button to move the radar cursor to a detected contact. Use the appropriate key shortcut or mapped button to lock on, which can generally be done at ranges greater than 10 nm for most US/NATO aircraft and later USSR/Warsaw Pact aircraft. The auto search/combat and/or boresight modes are all limited to about 5 or 10 nm depending on the aircraft. But even the long range manual lock has range limits that are usually less than the max search range possible. For instance, a radar with a max search range of 30 or 40 nm might only be able to track/illuminate targets at 20 or 30 nm. Whereas monster like the F-15 can detect contacts at 80 nm or greater, but can't track them at those ranges... which is ok since the AIM-7F/M used by the F-15A isn't going to fly that far anyway. Most SARH missiles are only effective at ranges less than 10 nm anyway, unless you are at high altitudes and/or high Mach numbers when you launch. I prefer to use AIM-7 missiles at ranges where they have been historically effective, which also seems to work fairly well within the game: 8 nm or less, preferably a head-on shot with high closure rate or less than 5 nm for a stern shot. Later Desert Storm AIM-7M BVR shots were about 35 to 45 % successful, but those were generally fired at ranges of 8 to 12 nm. Vietnam had more successful BVR shots than originally claimed because the "Combat Tree" system that allowed F-4s to use enemy IFF to confirm targets was classified, but even the declassified shots weren't that many and were all taken at ranges less than 10 nm, generally 7-8 nm with the AIM-7E2. In the game, the AIM-7E2 is horrible for head on BVR shots, it works much better as a stern chase dogfight missile, whereas the slightly earlier AIM-7E is great for head on shots and horrible for stern chase shots. 

Wondering where one can read such info, is really interesting, specially the ranges and PK's of the Sparrows.

[UllyB 1,206]

11 hours ago, Foug84 said:

Hey
I'd like to ask a question about radar combat. While long range (>10 NM) BVR capacity is quite poor for stock planes (at the exception of the F-14A Tomcat, where it seems that the Phoenix missiles works), it seems i can't use missiles on modern "mod" planes on distances farther than 10 nautical miles, the radar combat mode distance limit (i'm thinking about the use of the Meteor BVRAAM on JAT's Rafale, neither can I launch a fox-3 in a maddog move ,launching it in a "fire or forget" move) I'd like to know if it's a hard lock in the software and in the mods or if it's something that is easily fixable and that I should have figured out alone by now, in that case i'm sorry for bothering you.

Read the manual, "how to use the radar section" and you will discover interesting things you didn't know about a plane's radar and how to use it in order to fire a missile SAHM/AHM. For BVR AMRAAMs and stand-off Phoenix work and anything from their class (Soviets use other missiles but with aprox similar features). Differences between a SAHM and a AHM are obviously. AHM are BVR fire-and-forget weapons. Learn how to use the weapons editor , in order to see/find the optimal distance you can fire a AHMissile. For example, if the AMRAAM is set to have a 30km optimal/max distance, if you fire it at 35km it won't work or it won't even start. The same with any other missile, so it's esentially to KNOW the missile optimal fire distance! Also keep in mind that DIFFERENT AMRAAMs have DIFFERENT ready to fire distances, the newer the missile, the bigger the distance you can fire it. SAHM are semi-radar-active meaning that , after you fire it you have to maintain the tip of your aircraft to the target until it hits it or it misses it. If you are high enough you can fire SAHM from long distances, as a BVR missile. It all  depends of your skill and experience, exactly like in real life combat. If you set HARD for enemies skill don't be surprised to be hit by a BVR suddenly.You need to pay attention to the wingmen's phrase "he fired a missile" and to use map to see if the plane you suspected fired at you or at a collegue. The sooner you identify that plane, the better, you have a better chance to evade it and fire bacl at it. If the enemy fires a SAHM you will hear its ring, as it comes closer to you. When you hear that ring you better start the evasive manouvres you learnt until then.(the best is to stay at the groung level (20-30m abobe it) and wait for the ring to stop. It is also a good idea to figure otu who fired at you, until is not too late and he will fire another missile at you. Good luck!

Edited July 1, 2020 by UllyB

[Foug84 8]

2 hours ago, UllyB said:

Read the manual, "how to use the radar section" and you will discover interesting things you didn't know about a plane's radar and how to use it in order to fire a missile SAHM/AHM. For BVR AMRAAMs and stand-off Phoenix work and anything from their class (Soviets use other missiles but with aprox similar features). Differences between a SAHM and a AHM are obviously. AHM are BVR fire-and-forget weapons. Learn how to use the weapons editor , in order to see/find the optimal distance you can fire a AHMissile. For example, if the AMRAAM is set to have a 30km optimal/max distance, if you fire it at 35km it won't work or it won't even start. The same with any other missile, so it's esentially to KNOW the missile optimal fire distance! Also keep in mind that DIFFERENT AMRAAMs have DIFFERENT ready to fire distances, the newer the missile, the bigger the distance you can fire it. SAHM are semi-radar-active meaning that , after you fire it you have to maintain the tip of your aircraft to the target until it hits it or it misses it. If you are high enough you can fire SAHM from long distances, as a BVR missile. It all  depends of your skill and experience, exactly like in real life combat. If you set HARD for enemies skill don't be surprised to be hit by a BVR suddenly.You need to pay attention to the wingmen's phrase "he fired a missile" and to use map to see if the plane you suspected fired at you or at a collegue. The sooner you identify that plane, the better, you have a better chance to evade it and fire bacl at it. If the enemy fires a SAHM you will hear its ring, as it comes closer to you. When you hear that ring you better start the evasive manouvres you learnt until then.(the best is to stay at the groung level (20-30m abobe it) and wait for the ring to stop. It is also a good idea to figure otu who fired at you, until is not too late and he will fire another missile at you. Good luck!

On JAT81500's Rafales i can use the MICA IR in range in excess to 10 to 15 NM in a R-27ET-like launch (I did "scores" against maritime patrol aircraft and bombers at that range) while i'm confined to 10 NM range with the same missile with a radar seeker (MICA ER) or even the METEOR BVRAAM. On older missiles like the AIM-7/Skyflash on the F-4, i don't have any problem, mainly because the 10 NM range is more than enough to launch a medium range missile, so i'm not complaining about SAHM not reaching the maximum theoretical range.
For the weapon editor, you mean the loadout page ?

[UllyB 1,206]

Infrared missile won't work as radar guided ones, which is exactly like in real life. In game, for an unexperimented eye, they "seem" to work the same (like a fire-and-forget missile) because SOME of them, including the Mica IR, being new they have LONGER range than any other IR missile, AIM-9L for example. Don't be fooled by that difference. Firing an AMRAAM is 95% a fire-and-forget missile, opposed to MICA IR which is not. So if you fire MICA IR from, let's say 20km it won't hit the target for sure in SF2 series IF the enemy skill is set to HARD, meaning that the enemy A.I. pilot can fool the IR missile taking early evasive manouvres. So don't confuse BVR missile with IR missile just because some new IR missiles have apparently (very) long range.

No, the weapon editor is an utility which you can download from the utility section in download sector. The weapon editor works like this: you have in C:\ModFolder\StrikeFighters2_XXX\Objects\Weapons\  folder all the weapons you brought/downloaded/created plus the stock ones (look into that folder and observe). Weapon editor KNOWS how to work with those weapon folders you have there. When you run it (after you install it) it will show you the weapons that you can edit yourself (from each SF2 game installed on your HDD) or just read each weapon characteristics (press EDIT button after you selected a weapon from the list - see the photo)

 

As you can see in the picture radar guided BVR Mica EM has a max launch range of about 70 km ! If you have just 10NM which is about 18.52 km it means that something is wrong with the weapon settings. If you want to arrange weapons in your weapons editor use WeaponData.ini file. You can generate it directly from the weapon editor (notice the SAVE DAT/INI button). After you change something in your weapon editor don't forget to SAVE, to weapondata.ini file and directly into the editor (SAVE button). Don't tinker/tamper with data into weapon editor IF you don't know or you are not sure what you're doing! To make things easier for you in the matter of game's weapons just go to download section and download the latest weapon packs. Notice that you can download, too Soviet weapon packs (most of therm enemy weapons considered) as well there.

I forgot to add something in the previous post. If you have a very high altitude ( plus a very high speed) in the moment you fired the missile, then you will notice that the range settings for that BVR missile  will suddenly raise with 10-20%, which is logical, higher speed plus higher altitude means that it will have higher initial speed, plus the speed given by the fact that the missile falls to the target (gravity). In SF1 series I remember that SAHM missiles (AIM-7 Sparrows ones especially) didn't work if the enemy plane was flying low (under 2000 feets) exactly like in real Vietnam times/situations (there was something with the Sparrow guidance as I understood it). I didn't try this in SF2 to see if it's the same.

Edited July 1, 2020 by UllyB

[+EricJ 4,245]

4 hours ago, Foug84 said:

On JAT81500's Rafales i can use the MICA IR in range in excess to 10 to 15 NM in a R-27ET-like launch (I did "scores" against maritime patrol aircraft and bombers at that range) while i'm confined to 10 NM range with the same missile with a radar seeker (MICA ER) or even the METEOR BVRAAM. On older missiles like the AIM-7/Skyflash on the F-4, i don't have any problem, mainly because the 10 NM range is more than enough to launch a medium range missile, so i'm not complaining about SAHM not reaching the maximum theoretical range.
For the weapon editor, you mean the loadout page ?

I took a test flight in the Rafale-C and had issues when locking up a target, which is probably the problem that your having. I don't know much about cockpit modding but you may want to look at fixing the MFD (or getting a hold of JAT81500) and fix the radar MFD. I flew against a QF-4E and didn't get a hit, nor was I able to reliably track the Phantom when I locked ont to it with MICA EM missiles. I fired once but it didn't travel far before exploding on it's own (no range indicator for a good launch. I looked up the missile on Wikipedia and increased the range of the MICA EM but I suspect the issue is the MFD not correctly showing that you're locked on to a target. I mean you have to get within dogfight ranges (killed the Phantom with a MICA IR) to do anything so I'd recommend talking to JAT81500 and see if the plane be tweaked to work a bit better for BVR use.

[Wrench 9,847]

Sounds more like an avionics ini and/or avionics dll issue, than the missile.

 

[Foug84 8]

7 hours ago, Wrench said:

Sounds more like an avionics ini and/or avionics dll issue, than the missile.

 

Yes, i think it's something like that. I tried to mess up with the aionics INI (the track range) but it still don't work, so I guess i'm doing it wrong

[Wrench 9,847]

is the aircraft's main ini pointing to the avionics70.dll?? Are all the inis (avionics most expecially) SF2 compliant? Since I don't have the aircraft ... I can't check.

Also, for shits and grins, try pointing it to the F-15A_avionics.ini, which we know works, and see if the radar & missile do what they're supposed to

Primary diagnostic procedure: common to one or common to all?

[UllyB 1,206]

11 hours ago, Foug84 said:

Yes, i think it's something like that. I tried to mess up with the aionics INI (the track range) but it still don't work, so I guess i'm doing it wrong

Also don't mess with radar settings values if you don't know what you do. Keep in mind that data from your radar from your plane's avionics.ini file must concide with radar data found into plane' data.ini file, section [DetectSystem] (every plane has one,  simple or a complex one), though the reference in data.ini has no impact in the game, it's put there as a guiding thing. Pay attention to the TrackRange/TrackStrength/SearchRange/SearchStrength etc main parameters in plane's avionics.ini file. It might be a good idea to use Google and learned about radar performance for each aircraft you want to mode. After all, you want your plane to be as realistic as it could, right ? Also , in matters of avionics, as Wrench suggested, check in plane's ini file what type of avionics library your plane uses (Avionics60.dll or Avionics70.dll). Syntax written in avionics.ini file for an avionics60.dll library won't work for a plane which uses avionics70.dll library. Even the syntax for these two libraries is different. Take two planes , one which uses avionics60.dll and the other the avionics70.dll and compare then their avionics.ini files , at the radar section. They are different, aren't they ?

Edited July 2, 2020 by UllyB