Beefed up Vietnam What If

[macelena 1,070]

As much as North Vietnam recieved support from other communist countries, they really didn't get as much new stuff as, for example, Arab countries. 

So...What if by 1972, the USSR went all in and sent as much gear as they did to Arab countries?

Such as SA-6s, SA-3s, ZSU-23-4s, Komar class missile boats and even more...intense aircraft? (say, Yak-28s, Tu-22s, MiG-25s...)

I mean, rather than the ramifications out of the country, how do you think Linebacker would have gone had they set up all those capabilities in place

 

[+Gepard 11,356]

The SA-3, soviet designation Neva, was delivered in 1972 to North Vietnam.

It was used for the point defence of the airfields.

[macelena 1,070]

I think I read somewhere that SA-3s were the mysterious "SAM-X" but i thought it was a rumour, could you link something to read more about it?

[+Gepard 11,356]

Not very much. I remember that there was a small book of a hungarian author about the MiG-21 units of the Vietnam war, which included a photo of vietnamese SA-3. I will try to find it in my archive.

[MigBuster 2,884]

The NVA were training on SA-3 but it apparently never saw service in Linebacker II and the the deal may have been cancelled after the US involvement ended. (2018, B-52 Vs SA-2, Osprey)

The SAM-X..........AKA killer SAM site is listed as an Urban legend in The Eleven Days of Christmas (2002 Michel III). The site identified as VN-549 didn't match any Vietnamese records. They also guessed that might have been an SA-3 ..................however it seems to have been the tactics the NVA used with the newly modified SA-2B they were using.

 

 

 

[+daddyairplanes 10,281]

gotta think big picture

up until linebacker, the US wasnt deploying its big war fighting toys up north in a large fashion. testing some of the latest (F-111) or keeping stuff down south (B-52 Arc Lights) but not waves of the big bombers for most of the war.

the missile boats and Tu-22 and possibly the Yak would definitely been used to attack the fleet at Yankee Station or airbases in the south, causing a massive retaliation. with expectaion of Russian support after that retaliation. that wouldnt have flown in the Kremlin

MiG-25 probaably wouldnt have been sent, too many direct US recce assets that would have loved to record that radar. plus they were desired for motherland defense, Linebacker being too quick of a development to train North Vietnamese on them before the end of hostilities (after which they were needed)

the arab air forces got new stuff mainly because they

1 werent Communist and so it wasnt a matter "Socialist fraternity against the Imperialists" (or however you want to phrase it)

2 paid hard currency for their toys

3 fought an enemy using mostly US/NATO origin weapons, but had little chance of directly engaging US forces (gonna call the flare up in 1973 a fluke, typically the superpowers didnt get officially too directly involved)

the North Vietnamese were exactly opposite all these points, and major escalation to save an ally could have been bad (again, see the fluke of 1973)

Zeus 23 was deployed in 1975 during the invasion of teh south. Again, the Soviets probably were not in a hurry for the Americans to get a good look at the radar on that. an issue in 1972, but not in 75.

[KJakker 910]

As I recall the US did have ECM pods in theater to counter the SA-3. There was just no need to mount them.

[+daddyairplanes 10,281]

14 hours ago, KJakker said:

As I recall the US did have ECM pods in theater to counter the SA-3. There was just no need to mount them.

even if they werent in country, they'd have been there within about 72 hours. kind of like other parts of Nickel Grass, but for ourselves

[+streakeagle 871]

During the Easter Offensive when the NVA crossed the DMZ and was heading south, they had ZSU-23-4 Shilkas SPAAG and SA-7 Grail shoulder launched SAMs. They had limited quantities, so everything they had was deployed to the front lines to the south. The ZSU-23-4 is what rendered slow movers like the A-1 Skyraider useless. UH-1s would get chewed up, too.

ZSU-23-4 wouldn't have helped up north. The US had learned how to almost completely shut down the SA-2 sites with jamming and chaff corridors, so tactical aircraft flew at 15,000 ft, released weapons at 10,000 ft, and were not supposed to go lower than 8,500 ft. The ZU-23 AAA was worthless at those altitudes and it would have been at the limits of the ZSU-23-4. The heavier AAA wasn't particularly effective either as the radar for those was jammed, too.

Having a large number of modern resources available, May 10, 1972 looks a little different than it did to me 20 years ago. One interesting aspect is that many pilots who thought they were hit by SAMs and AAA were probably hit by Atolls, including Duke Cunningham. The reason so many MiGs went up in the air on May 10 is because North Vietnam could see new US tactics and equipment were defeating their SAMs and AAA. The MiG-17s got stomped that day because GCI was also being jammed. If the VPAF records are accurate, the MiG-21s more or less traded one-for-one. Of the 3 MiG-21s claimed by Oyster Flight (Major Lodge and then Capt Ritchie), one flew home and the other was a MiG-19. So the US account of MiG-21 losses needs to be lowered by 2. Add two kills for MiG-21s against Navy F-4s and that pretty much evens the score aside from the MiG-17 turkey shoot including 3 by Cunningham. The MiG-19s were potentially their best aircraft for close in dogfighting, yet in all the confusion, they only got Major Lodge and lost one to his Oyster flight. Sneaking up from behind with an Atoll and veering off without ever being seen was the winning tactic, including that day.