AI not limited by radar range but rather by weapon's max range.

[clim995 18]

ok i just found out the AI pilots aren't hampered by avionic limitation and are able to fully utilize the max range of their missile regardless of their aircraft's radar range. is this on the difficulty setting if not, is there any workaround for this? thanks in advance!

[Righteous26 70]

This is a major problem for the active homing missiles (guidance type 13). The AA-9B is particularly problematic in this case as the seeker range is set to 120000. There is no such thing as an active homing missile with a seeker range of 120000 meters. You can fix this by going to the data file and changing one line.

Set          SeekerRange=120000.000000

To           SeekerRange=20000.000000

This will prevent the computer from firing at you until it can get an accurate range on you with its radar or it closes to within 20000 meters. This will force it to respect the same constraints the player must follow.

You can also reduce the firing range by changing this line.

MaxLaunchRange=120000.000000

Note that changing this line will also prevent the player from firing the missile at a longer range regardless of other factors.

I recommend against changing the SeekerRange value for semi-active homing missiles (guidance type 12) as the computer must first lock you up before firing regardless of the range of the seeker so there is no point in reducing that number.

Also, the missile seekers do not appear to be affected by aircraft RCS. I have had MiG-31s fire at my stealth aircraft from the maximum missile range without ever seeing me on radar. This stopped when I adjusted the seeker range.

 

 

 

[bazillius 1,258]

2 hours ago, Righteous26 said:

missiles (guidance type 13). The AA-9B .........There is no such thing as an active homing missile with a seeker range of 120000 meters.

.......

MaxLaunchRange=120000.000000

 

Unfortunately, the R-37 missiles fly at a distance of 100 kilometers. Of course, not 120, as they are lied about, but they get close to 100 kilometers. There were already launches in a real battle. The missiles missed but forced the bombers to stop attacking. So I recommend reducing the chance of hitting and the Lock chance,  but the range should be 100 kilometers.

And yes, missiles of this type are poorly modeled in the game. They were not originally intended in the early versions of the game at all. If i remember right.

Edited March 1, 2023 by bazillius

[+EricJ 4,245]

2 hours ago, Righteous26 said:

This is a major problem for the active homing missiles (guidance type 13). The AA-9B is particularly problematic in this case as the seeker range is set to 120000. There is no such thing as an active homing missile with a seeker range of 120000 meters. You can fix this by going to the data file and changing one line.

Set          SeekerRange=120000.000000

To           SeekerRange=20000.000000

This will prevent the computer from firing at you until it can get an accurate range on you with its radar or it closes to within 20000 meters. This will force it to respect the same constraints the player must follow.

You can also reduce the firing range by changing this line.

MaxLaunchRange=120000.000000

Note that changing this line will also prevent the player from firing the missile at a longer range regardless of other factors.

I recommend against changing the SeekerRange value for semi-active homing missiles (guidance type 12) as the computer must first lock you up before firing regardless of the range of the seeker so there is no point in reducing that number.

Also, the missile seekers do not appear to be affected by aircraft RCS. I have had MiG-31s fire at my stealth aircraft from the maximum missile range without ever seeing me on radar. This stopped when I adjusted the seeker range.

 

 

 

Ugh, that's probably why I get launched at with an R-77 that seems to outrange my AMRAAMs. I'll have to look at some or a lot of files down the road for it to seem relatable and workable. Thanks for this though

[Righteous26 70]

If the enemy fighter is an Su-35S you will get outranged because his radar will burn through your jamming before you can burn through his and fire. These reduced firing ranges also put both combatants well within the no escape envelopes of each other's missiles so the player can't just turn and run away at full afterburner. Players must then defeat the missile with chaff as the ECM is of no value against a missile and a kinematic or seeker track rate defeat is unlikely.

The Su-35S radar data is obviously lifted directly from Russian promotional materials and is suspect to be fair.

I have adjusted all the range, impulse and drag values for the AAMs in my copy of the game and limited their useful ranges to the range at which their velocity drops below Mach 1 based on the Missile Range Simulator projections as the missile likely has little energy left for an interception at this point.

 

[UllyB 1,206]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:25 AM, clim995 said:

ok i just found out the AI pilots aren't hampered by avionic limitation and are able to fully utilize the max range of their missile regardless of their aircraft's radar range. is this on the difficulty setting if not, is there any workaround for this? thanks in advance!

Weapon parameters are the key here. Use weapon editor and adjust them accordingly if you are sure that you know what you're doing. Don't toy with them if you don't know what you're doing. Usually weapon packages, made here by CombatAce veterans (Ravenclaw is one nick that comes to my mind now) around are adjusted and realistic. Use them and try resist temptation to do things...better.

[Righteous26 70]

The missiles in SF2 tend to be over modeled as compared to other simulations. BMS Falcon comes to mind as hitting a fighter at 20 miles is effectively impossible with an AIM-120C-5. I reduced the impulse of all AHMs to reduce their effective ranges and the AIM-120C-5 can still reach 30 miles with enough energy for an intercept.

[+Nightshade/PR 7,947]

1 hour ago, Righteous26 said:

The missiles in SF2 tend to be over modeled as compared to other simulations. BMS Falcon comes to mind as hitting a fighter at 20 miles is effectively impossible with an AIM-120C-5. I reduced the impulse of all AHMs to reduce their effective ranges and the AIM-120C-5 can still reach 30 miles with enough energy for an intercept.

That's probably correct, if this information is correct. https://military-today.com/missiles/aim120_amraam.htm

[OlWilly 130]

On 01.03.2023 at 9:45 PM, Righteous26 said:

If the enemy fighter is an Su-35S you will get outranged because his radar will burn through your jamming before you can burn through his and fire. These reduced firing ranges also put both combatants well within the no escape envelopes of each other's missiles so the player can't just turn and run away at full afterburner. Players must then defeat the missile with chaff as the ECM is of no value against a missile and a kinematic or seeker track rate defeat is unlikely.

You should remember that such stuff is governed by avionics70.dll which was intended for early 4th gen fighters - F-14A, F-15A, F-16A, etc. Putting overly modern stuff in the game still forces it to use the same 70.dll file to govern its function. So don't expect proper modern ECM function, stealth, LPI radars and such.

Su-35S radar is indeed very powerful, it is made that way since Russia doesn't have much A-50 AWACS planes and there is no developed datalink in Russian AirForce like you would expect in USAF; A-50 just gives azimuth to the target by radio comms. Thus it's old-school, A-50 gives you azimuth, then you look with your own radar. Moreso, Su-35S pays for its radar range by being very detectable - it has huge RCS and radar itself is non-LPI, therefore target will know very early that it is being looked at.

[OlWilly 130]

On 01.03.2023 at 8:51 PM, bazillius said:

Unfortunately, the R-37 missiles fly at a distance of 100 kilometers. Of course, not 120, as they are lied about, but they get close to 100 kilometers. There were already launches in a real battle. The missiles missed but forced the bombers to stop attacking. So I recommend reducing the chance of hitting and the Lock chance,  but the range should be 100 kilometers.

It depends on many factors - altitude, speed, type of target and direction - frontal or rear semisphere.

If you fly at 20000m at 1.5M and launch at frontal semisphere of something like C-130 or B-52 - you may hit even from 150km.

If you fly lower and slower, and launch a catch-up against a fighter, the hit is not guaranteed even at 30-40km.

The problem with such long-range massive missiles is that while they have lots of energy - no joke, traveling at 5-6M, their maneuverability is limited and they use a lot of anticipation while tracking their target. Fighters usually can dodge them if timely maneuver is made.

This is how it work in real life, dunno how accurately it is modeled in the game

[bazillius 1,258]

48 minutes ago, OlWilly said:

This is how it work in real life, dunno how accurately it is modeled in the game

it's all clear and obvious. I just want to say that a range of 120 kilometers and even more so of 200 kilometers is a Russian lie. official Russian sources lied about the range of this missile, and the one who modeled this missile in the game took Russian lies as a basis. because of this, it is not interesting to play, because the rocket flies from the far far opposite end of the map and you don’t even know about it. which in reality does not correspond to this at all if to see at real battle experience.

[OlWilly 130]

6 hours ago, bazillius said:

it's all clear and obvious. I just want to say that a range of 120 kilometers and even more so of 200 kilometers is a Russian lie. official Russian sources lied about the range of this missile, and the one who modeled this missile in the game took Russian lies as a basis. 

Well, RUSI doesn't treat R-37 as a joke and I find RUSI as a decent source of analysis

The VKS has been firing up to six R-37Ms per day during October, and the extremely high speed of the weapon, coupled with very long effective range and a seeker designed for engaging low-altitude targets, makes it particularly difficult to evade.76 The long range of the R-37M, in conjunction with the very high performance and high operating altitude of the Mig-31BM also allows it significant freedom to menace Ukrainian aircraft near the frontlines from outside the range of Ukrainian defences. The VKS has also started employing the R-37M from at least a few of its Su-35S fighters, which not only increases the reach of the latter in combat but may also suggests Russian stocks of the R-37M are in little danger of running out.77

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/russian-air-war-and-ukrainian-requirements-air-defence

[bazillius 1,258]

Yes, not bad reading. I do not say that R-37 is a bad missile. I say 200 kilometers it is a lie. I listen Ukrainian pilots and they say 100 kilometers it id maximum. Sure Ukraine have no even AA 100 km missiles i am not argue with it. Also read Indian articles about air combat between a pair of Su-30MKIs and a pair of Pakistani F-16s. Pakistani planes were able to locate and lock both Indian planes and the Indians were forced to retreat in panic. Although according to the documents, the R-77 missile is superior to AMRAAM. But in the game and on paper R-77 better. The Russians always say the maximum range of their weapons and the United States the maximum effective range. The same with, for example, to the Kh-22 missiles. The maximum range is 600 kilometers (on paper) and the real  is 300 kilometers.

Edited March 10, 2023 by bazillius

[OlWilly 130]

On 11.03.2023 at 1:12 AM, bazillius said:

Although according to the documents, the R-77 missile is superior to AMRAAM. But in the game and on paper R-77 better.

Russian sources claim R-77-SD have 100km range, AIM-120-C-7 is claimed to have 120km. Ramjet R-77-PD is supposed to have more, but no one has seen it in actual service - unicorn missile