AN/ALE-40 dispenser

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

i´m working on some new F-4E cockpits and came across of some AN/ALE-40 info , based on that info did most F-4s get an ALE-40 CHAFF dispenser by 1974 and the FLARE dispenser by 1978 , the AN/ALE-40 control panel in the cockpit is first showing in the 1979 flight manual

in SF2 we have the AN/ALE-40 chaff and flare dispenser on the F-4E _75 what would be wrong if my info is correct , it would be interesting to know wehr the chaff only dispenser was mounted on the pylon , on the inner or the outer or on both sides or are this the chaff bundles that was carried in the air brake housing , and how was the chaff deployed given that no AN/ALE-40 control panel was in the cockpit until 1978/1979

i think i have to change that F-4E-75 model 

AN/ALE-40 control panel in the rear F-4 cockpit

[+streakeagle 871]

This post which includes comments from Ed Rasimus and 2nd hand observations from front line F-4 maintainers should make it really clear about the implementation of the decoy dispensers on F-4s. The short story from Ed is that the F-4E got the dispensers in 74-75, the F-4C never got them, but F-4Ds still in service finally got them "some time after 1977".

F-4 chaff/flare loads (narkive.com)

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

1 hour ago, streakeagle said:

This post which includes comments from Ed Rasimus and 2nd hand observations from front line F-4 maintainers should make it really clear about the implementation of the decoy dispensers on F-4s. The short story from Ed is that the F-4E got the dispensers in 74-75, the F-4C never got them, but F-4Ds still in service finally got them "some time after 1977".

F-4 chaff/flare loads (narkive.com)

 i have the information that flares where available from 1978 onward , and only the chaff AN/ALE-40 where added from 1974 on to F-4´s and the first flight manual that i own is the one from 1979 showing the AN/ALE-40 control panel

actually there are 2 cockpits shown in that manual , one typical with out the panel and one after TO 1F-4E-588 , TO 1F-4-1056 and TO 1F-4E-614 with this panel

so if the AN/ALE-40 ( chaff/flare ) was added in 1974 how was it operated from the cockpit with out the control panel ?

 

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

i´m going true all my manuals to get an answer and i just found this in the TO 1F-4E-2-30 manual , in the first picture is a note showing the different configuration of the AN/ALE-40 dispenser note1 showing that an all chaff configuration is possible and was done

all the control panels shown in picture 2 are shown in the second cockpit layout in the flight manual from 1979 ( 1 february 1979 ) the first cockpit layout ( typical ) is not showing any of this panels

so how did they use the AN/ALE-40 in 1974 ????     or did it take 5 years until all F-4´s where updated with the dispenser and than finally they added it in the flight manuals  ???

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

i was curious what the NSN system is telling me as you can see this 3 AN/ALE-40 are registered in 1976 /1978 , did not find any one registered earlier

Edited April 1, 2023 by ravenclaw_007

[Righteous26 70]

Just because the item does not appear in the manual until a given date does not mean that it was not in use earlier. If you note page 8-4 reads "Change 4" at the bottom and page 8-5 reads "Change 7" next to the page numbers. These pages were added to the manual at different times after 1975 and then released as one comprehensive package in 1979. Unfortunately, any interim changes in panel position, if any, are lost. The installation of the control panels was likely an ad hoc affair if a unit did not get the technical support representatives from the equipment manufacturer and there was no USAF guidance for where the panels should be placed. Hence, there may have been several configurations depending on when the panels were installed. Further, some units would receive the equipment for installation on the flight line and others would have it installed during depot level maintenance or overhaul. The manual reflects the official requirements for the placement of the panels as of its publication. It is likely not the only configuration that was approved or used as these change over time.

[RustyKurnass 658]

Can ask my friend Gene for any help, if at the time he still fly the Rhino

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

4 hours ago, RustyKurnass said:

Can ask my friend Gene for any help, if at the time he still fly the Rhino

good idea 

[+dtmdragon 2,704]

10 hours ago, Righteous26 said:

Just because the item does not appear in the manual until a given date does not mean that it was not in use earlier. If you note page 8-4 reads "Change 4" at the bottom and page 8-5 reads "Change 7" next to the page numbers. These pages were added to the manual at different times after 1975 and then released as one comprehensive package in 1979. Unfortunately, any interim changes in panel position, if any, are lost. The installation of the control panels was likely an ad hoc affair if a unit did not get the technical support representatives from the equipment manufacturer and there was no USAF guidance for where the panels should be placed. Hence, there may have been several configurations depending on when the panels were installed. Further, some units would receive the equipment for installation on the flight line and others would have it installed during depot level maintenance or overhaul. The manual reflects the official requirements for the placement of the panels as of its publication. It is likely not the only configuration that was approved or used as these change over time.

I think this is the likely explanation given my own experience deving into TO manuals and TO changes 

[Righteous26 70]

It would be reasonable to assume that any aircraft in SF2 would have the countermeasures installed as all the aircraft simulated are in an operational theater with an active war ongoing. The US military will swap mission essential equipment from vehicles leaving a theater to those entering it and will prioritize units going to a theater over those not scheduled for deployment.

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

1 hour ago, Righteous26 said:

It would be reasonable to assume that any aircraft in SF2 would have the countermeasures installed as all the aircraft simulated are in an operational theater with an active war ongoing. The US military will swap mission essential equipment from vehicles leaving a theater to those entering it and will prioritize units going to a theater over those not scheduled for deployment.

it is not only swapping the dispenser from one aircraft to an other  , in real life you have to add the wiring to an aircraft including the control panels in the cockpit and that is not something you do on the flight line

since i´m building the cockpits for the F-4E i like to know if i add the AN/ALE-40 control panel to the 1975 cockpit or not , based on the flight manuals it is a no , if now somebody has first hand knowledge and tells me that this control panels where installed ( if only on some aircraft ) i can add the panel to the cockpit 

[+dtmdragon 2,704]

49 minutes ago, ravenclaw_007 said:

it is not only swapping the dispenser from one aircraft to an other  , in real life you have to add the wiring to an aircraft including the control panels in the cockpit and that is not something you do on the flight line

since i´m building the cockpits for the F-4E i like to know if i add the AN/ALE-40 control panel to the 1975 cockpit or not , based on the flight manuals it is a no , if now somebody has first hand knowledge and tells me that this control panels where installed ( if only on some aircraft ) i can add the panel to the cockpit 

Do you have a pre 1979 manual that references the dispensers but not the cockpit control panels for them? Of not then surly this is just a situation of the flight manual being behind the changes? And if you do are the cockpit changes possible a (classified?) supplement to the manual that you simply haven't seen? Hard to imagine the dispensers being present without any cockpit controls...

Edited April 2, 2023 by dtmdragon

[RustyKurnass 658]

19 hours ago, ravenclaw_007 said:

good idea 

Mate I've asked my friend for info but he can't help, this was is response

"Beyond my time in the Phantom ... and beyond my technical expertise ... "

Anyway, I posted a link of this thread in the modelling forum of which I'm a subscriber ; there're is plenty of expert about the Phantom.

 

 

[+streakeagle 871]

The manuals don't show my throttle handles with bolted on switches and wiring dangling from them for field changes. I have the throttle handles. They existed, in the manual or not. The manuals are very important, but not always the sole arbiter of fact, including real performance vs. charts in the manuals.

[Righteous26 70]

5 hours ago, ravenclaw_007 said:

it is not only swapping the dispenser from one aircraft to an other  , in real life you have to add the wiring to an aircraft including the control panels in the cockpit and that is not something you do on the flight line

since i´m building the cockpits for the F-4E i like to know if i add the AN/ALE-40 control panel to the 1975 cockpit or not , based on the flight manuals it is a no , if now somebody has first hand knowledge and tells me that this control panels where installed ( if only on some aircraft ) i can add the panel to the cockpit 

Yes, you can add things like this on the flight line and move the equipment between aircraft. In the US Navy they have aircraft called "strike birds" that are in such bad shape by the end of a cruise that they take functional parts from these aircraft for use on aircraft that can be made mission capable. The US Army does the same thing and calls it "controlled exchange" or "CAN" in the maintenance records. You absolutely can move sensors, armament, computers, MPDs, ASE, engines, wire bundles and just about any black box or electronic device to another aircraft. It may be frowned upon officially, but the units do it to meet mission especially when they are at the end of a deployment and parts are in short supply. You must record it in the maintenance logs of all affected aircraft however, as the parts are often serial numbered and accounted for by SN and aircraft tail number.

If a squadron is going to war then they will likely get the best kit available even if it means taking it from another unit. Further, the units leaving theater leave some equipment behind so there is a supply of spares in theater.

[+streakeagle 871]

I doubt there would even be photos of such field changes. During Vietnam, the Navy and USAF had so many field change variants that they had to organize programs to bring the majority of their aircraft to a common standard. The F-4E was still the USAF's frontline fighter and as such was constantly being improved. The birds in the USAFE would have been where the newest modifications were implemented before becoming the official standard after Vietnam ended.

[+streakeagle 871]

"The Modern Phantom Guide" which is often the only reference I have that goes into depth on even the smallest details says:

Quote

AN/ALE-40 chaff/flare dispenser units were added to the rear of USAF and most FMS (foreign military sales) F-4s beginning in the early 1980s to improve the F-4's self defense capabilities. The only USAF F-4s to not receive them are the F-4C and RF-4C.

 

[+streakeagle 871]

Howerver, my manual, TO 1F-4E-1, 1 February 1979 clearly shows the chaff/flare dispenser panel present with the note: AFTER TO 1F-4E-588, TO 1F-4-1056 AND TO 1F-4E-614.

Find the dates on those field changes, and you get your answer when the chaff/flare panel was installed.

Edited April 4, 2023 by streakeagle

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

10 hours ago, streakeagle said:

"The Modern Phantom Guide" which is often the only reference I have that goes into depth on even the smallest details says:

 

this are my finds to 

10 hours ago, streakeagle said:

Howerver, my manual, TO 1F-4E-1, 1 February 1979 clearly shows the chaff/flare dispenser panel present with the note: AFTER TO 1F-4E-588, TO 1F-4-1056 AND TO 1F-4E-614.

Find the dates on those field changes, and you get your answer when the chaff/flare panel was installed.

in the same manual is the " typical " cockpit before the TO changes with out the chaff / flare panels , and that was the reason i ask the question about the AN/ALQ-40  because there are info´s in the net that the first dispenser was mounted in 1974 /1975

so maybe i make 2 cockpits for the 1975 F-4E one with and one with out this panels

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

i was checking pictures of F-4E´s from 1976 , 1977 and 1978 the first pictures of an F-4E with AN/ALE-40 that i found is dated june 1978 , the picture is from the TAM 1978 at RAF Wildenrath 

note: 68-0507 and 68-0532 with AN/ALE-40 , 68-0529 with out AN/ALE-40

maybe somebody can find some pictures from 1975 , 1976 , 1977 that shows a F-4E with AN/ALE-40 dispenser , i could not find any so far

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

of topic

just found this picture showing F-4E´s from the 50th TFW at Shiraz Air Base (Iran) during exercise Cento, 1August 1977 , how time can change , and note there are no AN/ALE-40 on this aircrafts

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by ravenclaw_007

[+streakeagle 871]

With three different TO's resulting in the same cockpit images in the February 1979 manual, I wonder why there were three different TO's and when each one was initiated? But 1978 is absolutely the latest date it can be given a very early 1979 manual citing the changes.

 

[+EricJ 4,245]

It's the Air Force but that's just a service thing I guess. Personally, I wouldn't put the AN/ALE-40 on the 75 birds.  It's showing that they didn't have it more and more.

[+streakeagle 871]

I would assume you already stumbled upon this, but it was great information with great photos about RAF Phantoms getting the ALE-40 around the time of the Falklands War: AN/ALE 40 :: David Gledhill (david-gledhill.co.uk)

[+ravenclaw_007 7,633]

just found the answer by going true the T.O. 1F-4E-2-30 , there is right on top a list of changes made to the F-4E

 

and i found something else that i was searching for , what year did the IP-1310 azimuth indicator appear in the F-4E cockpit , it is 1983 and not 1978 as it is with the TW cockpits

i will change now my cockpits and the IP-1310 will appear in my cockpits with the F-4E_85_ANG