Vietnam Community Project Idea: Gulf of Tonkin Incident - Redux

[+EricJ]

Okay,. methinks that I'm asking to be wiped out with all those sites though near Hanoi and so on... Thanks Wrench

[+Gepard]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Okay,. methinks that I'm asking to be wiped out with all those sites though near Hanoi and so on... Thanks Wrench

This i mean with reworking of target areas. This is one point of many.

The number of SAM sites is to low, compared with reality of Vietnam War. It were over 200 sites in 1968/69 and more than 300 in 1973. But in reality not all SAM sites were used by the Vietnamese. They moved their SAM batteries between the SAM sites, so that some sites were empty while others were used. If i could "switch on" the active sites by random ..... That would be a nice feature.

[+EricJ]

2 hours ago, Gepard said:

This i mean with reworking of target areas. This is one point of many.

The number of SAM sites is to low, compared with reality of Vietnam War. It were over 200 sites in 1968/69 and more than 300 in 1973. But in reality not all SAM sites were used by the Vietnamese. They moved their SAM batteries between the SAM sites, so that some sites were empty while others were used. If i could "switch on" the active sites by random ..... That would be a nice feature.

That would be cool actually, so randomly you could have different locations every time you either play a single mission or campaign to reflect that.

[+Wrench]

Gepard did the air defenses, I'm just doing 2 bases (well, unless he needs more help, which I doubt)

Here's a couple of shots of Nakon Phanom , TAE and in-game. (you can see the differences) Nightmare trying to find good map of the base layout. So, some "things" are conjecture. I'll pass all this along (albeit in VNSEA) to Gepard this weekend. He'll have some retiling to do for both these bases (read: expand the clear airbase zones)

[+EricJ]

Still I have to give it a go (fixed the year issue already) sometime, and see how bad it can get with modern AD that's on my Install, though even the stock map I got SA-10s galore and such. Not fun at all. The bases look good too, but too bad we can't take advantage of the place though, custom parking spots, etc.

[+Gepard]

So the SAM site will look in the next update of DRV 2.0

 

[+Wrench]

why not use the sam site object? it's pretty much already laid out for SA-2 batteries. Then, you can link it with 'road objects' if needed.

[+Gepard]

I'm not really happy with the SAM site object. It is good for desert areas, but for Vietnam or Europe, i think my SAM site, consisting of individual part can be better adjust to local obstacles, like trees.

[+swambast]

Gep, we have alternatives to those - here's from WTR for example.  I would say don't worry about those for now.  I'm happy to share some of the WTR models if needed, spent like a year perfecting the SAM Sites and making custom models but give honor to Old Diego as he was the pioneer in this and I simply expanded and improved upon the foundation.

[+daddyairplanes]

ya know, Gepards model honestly looks better to me than both of the "we have that already" posts seen. to paraphrase, maybe he's rejecting our reality and substituting his own.

im surprised to see more concrete/pavement than dirt. But the man is about the only one in here i know of that served on "the other side" during the active Cold War. so i tend to defer to him on WARPAC stuff seeing as he either lived it or knows the folks that did

[+swambast]

In other news, working up the 5 inch guns for the Maddox.  Here is current WIP.  Please note that NONE of the textures are final, these are all just placeholders for now until mesh is finalized and UV Maps updated, etc - see below.
I don't want to model/mesh the target circle, be more practical to use a simple .TGA - does anyone have one available they could share with me, thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

[+swambast]

Totally disagree.  SAM Sites during the Vietnam War rarely ever used concrete roads; they were designed to be semi-mobile and temporary to begin with and they leveraged existing infrastructure including dirt roads, bamboo materials, natural objects such as trees/bushes, etc.  The only known places where they were more permanent was outside major urban centers such as Hanoi, etc. where there was additional AAA protection, greater raw material access, etc. A majority of the sites were not this way, and the NVA strategy was based on mobility, deception, and concealment, not static hardened construction sites.

[+Wrench]

I totally agree with Gepard. I only added my comment, cause I'm lazy   Built tooooooooo many things as individual items. But his does look better!

[+EricJ]

I mean, I don't do much Vietnam stuff, but it's not going to make much of a difference because either way, a SAM is going to be shot at you. Tomato, Tomato, same thing, just looks different. I mean yeah okay I go with the dirt path, but still it's not going to save me from an SA-2 either...

[+Gepard]

To come back to the SAM sites and the concrete roads. Swambast is right and wrong at the same time.

It is correct to say, that the SAM batteries were semi mobile. The SAM sites were static. The vietnamese built more SAM sites, than they had SAM batteries. They rotated the batteries through the SAM sites per random or, when the site "demask itself" with opening the fire. After the battle was fought, the vietnamese moved the SAM battery to reduce the risk to be attacked by the opponent.

Later, so in the mid of Vietnam war, they learned, that the opponent was able to destroy fortified SAM sites and he had the power to do this. From that time a lot of SAM batteries were placed somewhere in the nowhere. They stayed there for a couple of days or till they were fighting a battle. Then they were relocated. Old soldiers rule: "After firing move to a new fire position. If not you will die."

The SAM sites itself were built in the dry periode of the year. In this time there was no need to inforce the soil with concrete. A truck or lorry (how our british friend would call it) could easily drive on it. But this changed very fast in rain periode. The truck could not operate under this conditions and so the ways were inforced by concrete.

But you should not imagine a 5 or 6 meter wide road made by concrete or tarmac. It was made by a technology, which we call in eastern Germany "Plattenstraße in Form einer Spurbahn". No idea, how you call in the America or the rest of the world. Basically such a road is puzzled together by single plates of concrete. Each plate is 3 meters long, 1 meter wide and 0.25 meters thick. The plate has rectangular holes. It weighs 1 metric ton.

To form a road two lines of plates were laid out. The distance between the plates is 1 meter. The room between the plates and outside the plates will be filled with gravel and get finally a layer of soil. The reason is, that on the soil vegetation can grew up. After a while such a road is very difficult to see from a plane at certain distances.

Here you see such a road which was made by this technology. It can operate 40 ton trucks under all weather conditions easily.

You see the "hole plates", the two lines of plates and you see how the road is vanishing at a certain distance.

 

[+daddyairplanes]

54 minutes ago, Gepard said:

 which we call in eastern Germany "Plattenstraße in Form einer Spurbahn". No idea, how you call in the America or the rest of the world. Basically such a road is puzzled together by single plates of concrete. Each plate is 3 meters long, 1 meter wide and 0.25 meters thick. The plate has rectangular holes. It weighs 1 metric ton.

sounds like a concrete (no pun intended) version of pierced steel planking, the US answer to the problem from WW2 through Vietnam.

[+Gepard]

3 hours ago, daddyairplanes said:

sounds like a concrete (no pun intended) version of pierced steel planking, the US answer to the problem from WW2 through Vietnam.

 

A similar system, but only with different materials.

[+Gepard]

A begin of a rework of Da Nang area.

River added, port added. I think i made the town a little bit to big. It is more as it is today, but i think during Vietnam War it was smaller. I will try to find an aerial photo of that timeframe and then i will make the changes.

[Fry]

Found a map from 67 and 69. I think the city should be only in the north western part of the Base.

https://battlearchives.com/cdn/shop/products/battle-archives-map-da-nang-2-11726467104861_1396x1799.jpg?v=1563855291

Edited July 21 by Fry

[+Gepard]

Da Nang town, harbor and airbase

[+Gepard]

I need the help of a native speaker.

In the target.data i have several target areas called "... local communist party bureau".

Is this correct or should it be: "... local communist party office" ?

I like the idea to drop bombs on the bigwigs, guys which send out soldiers to die and hide itself in save distance from the frontline.

[+EricJ]

I'd go with Party Office myself

[+daddyairplanes]

that or Regional Party HQ

possibly naming the region if you so desired (Hanoi Party HQ, Quang Tri Party HQ etc)

[+Wrench]

I'd go with what DA said. Since it's "local" to that region, city or village.

[+Gepard]

Okay, i will call it local communist party HQ.

Screenshot: I relocated the TOD buildings in the towns to make space for target objects, like factories, Flak, the famous communication building etc.

So it looks ate the moment.