Can I rant here?

[tn_prvteye 36]

Actually, not the sim...the people already complaining about it.

 

I'm an avid WWI freak. I love WWI aviation. I build scale models, read books, and fly what few sims there are available for it.

 

And I'm very excited about First Eagles.

 

I'm fully aware of it's limitations and it's "lite" sim status. I've been playing Strike Fighters since 2002. I'm very familiar with the engine. But I'm still looking forward to First Eagles.

 

What is really starting to get on my nerves is the attitude of some of my WWI brethren. To be blunt, they are freakin' snobs. Sure, I'd love for FE to be the most realistic and authentic WWI sim ever, but it won't be. But it will be fun. But there are people already complaining about the screenshots saying that so-and-so NEVER flew with this or that squadron...and that this is an arcade (baby) sim. And they wonder why so few WWI sims are made.

 

The WWI fan community can be some of the brightest, best, and friendliest bunch around.

 

Or they can be the most uppity, wholier-than-thou, rivet-counting (fabric-counting?), anal-retentive, curmudgeons.

 

And yes, I'm aware that we all want that "perfect" Great War sim. But it's NEVER going to happen. OFF has its limits...RB3D has its limits. FE will and the next WWI sim will, too. Get over it, relax, and have a good time.

 

Sorry...had to rant there.

[+Tailspin 3]

Good rant. I've been thinking the same thing. They are already building up excuses to slam the sim and none of them have even tried it. All I can say is; Good for them! Time to let it go and move on then, right?

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Yeah, ignore the nay sayers of a product that han't even been released yet. What do they know about this game that the rest of us don't? Nothing, that's what! It is good to see that fans of a genre get together in support of said genre, but to pick away at something that isn't even out is pretty stoopid...

[BUFF 8]

What is really starting to get on my nerves is the attitude of some of my WWI brethren. To be blunt, they are freakin' snobs. Sure, I'd love for FE to be the most realistic and authentic WWI sim ever, but it won't be. But it will be fun. But there are people already complaining about the screenshots saying that so-and-so NEVER flew with this or that squadron...

What I don't understand is how few of them get the idea that they can change all that in this series to be absolutely authentic

If they have better research materials than TK, fine let him know & he'll take note of it.

[+Dave 2,322]

That forum over at SimHQ is going to be like the IL2 forum. They have no clue about what they are about to get. It will be interesting. I hope it doesn't spill over here. If it does it will be an easy fix. I am not even going to worry about posting in there C5 has a forum set up for it and I would post in there.

[tn_prvteye 36]

It just seems like sometimes, they WANT to find things wrong with a sim. I swear you could strap them in a real Sopwith Camel and they'd complain that the instrument panel is the wrong color.

 

I really hope cooler heads prevail, and the excellent WWI modders (of which there are many) can work to make this the most expansive SF based sim yet.

 

One of my first posts about FE was optimistic, but after a week of demands and complaints, I'm starting to lose the faith.

 

And yes, it's a bit cowardly to rant on this forum. But I didn't want to make things worse at SimHQ, and I know the SF regulars here could relate. Again, I just needed to rant to some folks who I knew would understand.

 

Whew...gotta take a nap...too much beer and turkey...

[Dagger 21]

I agree with you..I just hope that after they actually try the sim they'll see it's a blast.NO it's not perfect but it's is fun.I flew RB3D for years and SDOE WW1 and although this one isn't going to be the end all WW1 sim it is fun and if most of these guys had tried to fly RB in AFM they'd have had reason to complain about it also.

lets all just have some fun..and if you don't like the squadron markings on a plane then just wait and I'm sure the skin will be along shortly.

[Heck 496]

I don't think anyone has to worry about this series of sims. TK nailed what the vast majority of simmers really want; a sim that's just plain fun to fly, without requiring six months of training flights to enjoy it. And he gave us (even people with little skill, like myself) the ability to change almost any aspect of the sim, and add almost anything we want. One series of sims in which I can fly from 1918 (soon to be earlier, I'm sure) through the 1990's? What other series can lay claim to that? A sim in which a moron like myself can fiddle with the Mig 15's flight model until I truly have to worry about spinning below 10,000'? Unheard of. The modding is already starting. The Gotha's out there (thanks, Capun, and crew!). Airplanes for free. Ground objects for free. Little green men to shoot (RB 3d'er, now if we could only make them cheer when they charge LOL!). Let them complain. Let them pick. Personally, I plan to pick it up as soon as it hits the shelves here in the states. And then I plan to download every single mod that comes out for it, knowing there'll be plenty, from a group of very talented people, and by the time they're done, I'll be flying a Fiat during the Spanish Civil War to boot.

 

So, let 'em complain. And nit-pick. And then ask them what the little strap under Von Richtofen's cap was for. And why he was still wearing the strap when he took his cap off to put his flight helmet on in the one piece of cine film I've seen of him.

[Guest Stiglr]

I don't think anyone has to worry about this series of sims. TK nailed what the vast majority of simmers really want; a sim that's just plain fun to fly, without requiring six months of training flights to enjoy it. And he gave us (even people with little skill, like myself) the ability to change almost any aspect of the sim, and add almost anything we want. One series of sims in which I can fly from 1918 (soon to be earlier, I'm sure) through the 1990's? What other series can lay claim to that? A sim in which a moron like myself can fiddle with the Mig 15's flight model until I truly have to worry about spinning below 10,000'? Unheard of. The modding is already starting. The Gotha's out there (thanks, Capun, and crew!). Airplanes for free. Ground objects for free. Little green men to shoot (RB 3d'er, now if we could only make them cheer when they charge LOL!). Let them complain. Let them pick. Personally, I plan to pick it up as soon as it hits the shelves here in the states. And then I plan to download every single mod that comes out for it, knowing there'll be plenty, from a group of very talented people, and by the time they're done, I'll be flying a Fiat during the Spanish Civil War to boot.

 

So, let 'em complain. And nit-pick. And then ask them what the little strap under Von Richtofen's cap was for. And why he was still wearing the strap when he took his cap off to put his flight helmet on in the one piece of cine film I've seen of him.

 

I'll take the other side in the debate.

 

It is NOT wrong for a flight sim fan to want the SIM to be realistic. That's the main problem with TK and his sim-lite approach. It's a cop-out from the word go. He's basically admitting he can't create (or doesn't want to bother to create) a good flight model, so he just throws his hands in the air, sets the expectation for a sim lite and washes his hands of all responsibility to make a sim a SIM. Not a GAME, but a SIM.

 

If people are complaining, it's because too many developers are cutting corners, making mistakes and just plain FAILING to create good flight SIMS. Now, I'm sure there are a lot of behind the scenes pressures from publishers, from thier own accounts receivable departments, etc., etc. to not go the extra mile and turn out a QUALITY, realistic sim... but given that most of what we have seen so far has fallen so short, it would be nice, for a change, to see someone actually deliver the goods where accuracy and good physics are concerned.

 

And, please don't start in with the "if it's realistic it won't be fun" saw. If you really think that, you just don't know what you're talking about. Realistic objectives, flight parameters, engine management, mission profiles, etc. and a real, honest-to-goodness historical lesson wrapped in a challenging, engrossing sim, ARE just as fun as silly, stick-in-yer-gut turn-n-shoot situations... just in different ways.

 

We have enough GAMES. We have enough eye candy dressing up pigs. Can't anybody just... give us a SIM???

Edited November 24, 2006 by Stiglr

[+Dave 2,322]

I'll take the other side in the debate.

 

It is NOT wrong for a flight sim fan to want the SIM to be realistic. That's the main problem with TK and his sim-lite approach. It's a cop-out from the word go. He's basically admitting he can't create (or doesn't want to bother to create) a good flight model, so he just throws his hands in the air, sets the expectation for a sim lite and washes his hands of all responsibility to make a sim a SIM. Not a GAME, but a SIM.

 

If people are complaining, it's because too many developers are cutting corners, making mistakes and just plain FAILING to create good flight SIMS. Now, I'm sure there are a lot of behind the scenes pressures from publishers, from thier own accounts receivable departments, etc., etc. to not go the extra mile and turn out a QUALITY, realistic sim... but given that most of what we have seen so far has fallen so short, it would be nice, for a change, to see someone actually deliver the goods where accuracy and good physics are concerned.

 

And, please don't start in with the "if it's realistic it won't be fun" saw. If you really think that, you just don't know what you're talking about. Realistic objectives, flight parameters, engine management, mission profiles, etc. and a real, honest-to-goodness historical lesson wrapped in a challenging, engrossing sim, ARE just as fun as silly, stick-in-yer-gut turn-n-shoot situations... just in different ways.

 

We have enough GAMES. We have enough eye candy dressing up pigs. Can't anybody just... give us a SIM???

 

We can't get a "sim" because no ones wants to spend the money to make one. To get what we see as the ultimate sim, will never happen.

 

Also TK's idea was an easy to use sim that the public can mod like the MSFS series does, that is his right as a dev to do. Just because it doesn't fit your vision, doesn't it make it wrong. He had a vision and went with it. You think it needs more, ok, so do we in certain areas, but it doesn't fit what he wanted. And it is about what he wanted to create. You want to create something like a painting, you are going to do it the way you envision. Not the way you think everyone else is going to want it. Stiggy, you just can't seem to get over that hump. As soon as you except for what it is, then you can move on. We have and look what some of us have done with it.

[tn_prvteye 36]

Well, if you're waiting for an ultra-realistic and hyper-accurate WWI sim, you're going to be disappointed in life. It will never happen. EVER. But with the SF series, we've been given the tools to make it as close as we can given enough effort. You want that hyper-real sim? Make it yourself.

 

And that's what the OFF team is doing...and I applaud then for it. But the SF engine is MUCH easier to work with than CFS3. I'm still gonna d/l Phase 2, and if I like it, I'll donate. I've played Phase 1 and liked it, but still thought it was missing "something". So I don't play it anymore. Like I've said before...room for both FE and OFF.

 

But you will never get ultimate realism anywhere...unless save up some money (around 20K), and buy a full scale replica of a Nieuport 11 and get your PPL.

 

And I hate to tell you this, but unless you're flying a full-scale motion simulator in the military, or an instrument simulator designed for instrument pilots...all flight-sims are GAMES. No one is really a WWI ace, we can't go back in time to 1917, and if you DID suddenly find yourself flying at 10K feet in an Albatross, you'd be dead in 60 seconds.

 

They are games designed for entertainment.

 

OK, rant off...damn too much booze tonight.

[BUFF 8]

It is NOT wrong for a flight sim fan to want the SIM to be realistic. That's the main problem with TK and his sim-lite approach. It's a cop-out from the word go. He's basically admitting he can't create (or doesn't want to bother to create) a good flight model, so he just throws his hands in the air, sets the expectation for a sim lite and washes his hands of all responsibility to make a sim a SIM. Not a GAME, but a SIM.

& is it wrong of the developer to go with a more relaxed flight model if he reckons that will sell more copies/be more profitable than a hyper realistic niche sim?

TK obviously has a vision of what he believes will sell in the marketplace (which seems to be working so far) & can get a return on investment. I very much doubt that if TK doubled his budget to improve the games as you want that he would sell twice as many copies.

We may not like it but at the end of the day it's about money & not realism - even Oleg Maddox has said that Il-2 etc. wasn't very profitable for him/his team (Ubisoft may well be another story ...).

If it's profitable we get improvements added over time, if it isn't we get nada in the future.

 

btw I'm told by those that have delved that the FM takes a lot of factors into account & is very accurate if so tweaked.

[bernard 0]

I haven't wanted to get my hands on a sim this badly since Knights of the sky on the Atari ST.

 

Damn the rivet counters, the whole point of WW1 sims is that you have nothing but a stick, rudder, throttle and trigger and hare around the sky like a madman, turning on a dime and sending hot streams of death into the fabric underbelly of some Fokker.

 

I can't wait to have a crack at the Bosch and then be home for tea and medals. Tally Ho!

[Uriah 1]

Ok, I may be one of those you think is a rivit counter, but really - I think I am just the target that TK is after. It looks like we can get good stall and spins in the flight models and that online play will be just fine. So for us onliners we will just need the tools to make sure we are using the same flight models. From the kind of 'online' play offered it looks like we just will need a good chat room to geather in - something I am just learning about.

[+Zurawski 33]

Well...

 

Considering TK's development group consists of roughly four to six full-time (including himself)... and a small handful of independent contractors... what he develops with little to no publisher support is no small feat.

 

Even more impressive is his fundamental belief of incremental improvement in ALL his titles as each new project brings new and improved code. (Advantage of building off the same engine foundantion)...

 

Flight simulation enthusiasts have always been one of the most demanding genres... which is all the more reason TKs approach is the most viable...

 

"Provide a solid flight-sim foundation and the community will improve upon it and make it flourish".

 

TK sims "are-what-they-are"... "WE" the community, ultimately determine whether it is a flop or not.

 

I have absolute faith that this WWI project with succeed... IMHO, I believe it will eventually become the most heavily modified project yet...

 

So there ya have it... not go forth and contribute!

[+Dave 2,322]

Ok, I may be one of those you think is a rivit counter, but really - I think I am just the target that TK is after. It looks like we can get good stall and spins in the flight models and that online play will be just fine. So for us onliners we will just need the tools to make sure we are using the same flight models. From the kind of 'online' play offered it looks like we just will need a good chat room to geather in - something I am just learning about.

 

I have the inside track on it and here it is...stalls yes. MP is dogfight or canned missions only. By canned is there is a basic format and that is it. You can not create custom mp missions. You can make the FM's as hard as you want. Then when you play online, everyone has to be the same, any deviation then you all can't fly with each other. Does that answer your questions.....

[Sky Captain 0]

We have enough GAMES. We have enough eye candy dressing up pigs. Can't anybody just... give us a SIM???

Obviously you've never played IL2.

 

 

Anyways, the new sim looks awesome. Even if it's a lite-sim, there a dozens of modders who can and will make it fun, challenging, and more realistic. Gah, now I've got to choose between First Eagles and the '46 Expansion... SO MANY CHOICES!

[+Zurawski 33]

We have enough GAMES. We have enough eye candy dressing up pigs. Can't anybody just... give us a SIM???

 

Boils down to semantics...

 

TKs projects are not simulations in the conventional sense... they are games.

 

Stiglr, you have always been a dyed-in-the-wool hardcore realism advocate... Problem is whether you can admit it or not... this high fidelity, highly accurate, micro-management simulations you crusade for are sadly becoming ultra-rare... for no other reason than consumer based wants and expectations.

 

The days of twiddling knobs and flipping switches are dying in our simulations because our publishers HAVE to cater to the lower common denominator. Our button mashing, A.D.D youth have no true desire to sit down an learn the intricacies of a fighter jet, when they can shove in a CD to their console and twitch.

 

I applaud you for your desire to keep simulations pure as they were 20 years ago... It's just not what's going to see copies to todays consumers.

 

OMHO, TK is doing the right thing... He's providing a solid air-combat simulation... and leaving it completely open to "US" to make it as in-depth as we wish to make it.

Edited November 24, 2006 by Zurawski

[Guest Stiglr]

Obviously you've never played IL2.

 

Uh, yeah, I HAVE played IL-2; it's the poster child for poor flight modeling wrapped up in very nice graphics.

 

And, anyway, we get what we deserve at the end of the day. As long as we settle for "sim lite" and other boondoggles, and don't demand better, well, that's what we'll keep seeing.

 

If they couldn't sell crappy FMs, you can bet they'd improve them so that they would sell. The realities of the game developer/distributor market are the heart of the problem: the disti's are all money-grubbing scum who don't give hard-working developers the deals they ought to get, then they pressure them to produce sub-par work under extreme time and budget pressure...and then, their bar for success is the bar for XBox, Wii and Nintendo...millions of copies... so of course our small niche always disappoints them.

 

but at the end of the day, that's not the problem of the sim pilot. We suffer for it, but these considerations should not be any concerns of ours.

 

Zurawski, your comments are most distressing. You're suggesting that flight simmers represent the "lowest common denominator" and that's insulting to all of us. We are NOT the LCD. The console, thumb-twitch gamers are the LCD. We flight sim fans show a propensity to enjoy games that take longer than 15 minutes to even be bad at, and also capture our interest much longer than most console titles; our titles have history to be compared to, so naturally it's harder to create a product that's "right".

 

It's easy to create a fantasy 'plasma rifle', because it doesn't and never did, exist. Just throw in some special effects, give it whatever damage capabilities you want and voila; who's going to argue that it's "ueber" or "unter", or too accurate or not accurate enough? You can't, because there isn't a real plasma rifle to compare it to.

 

Also, describing an expectation for accurate flight systems as merely "flipping switches" is also insulting. Much as some low-fi gamers hate to admit it, we can learn (and not only learn, but learn to appreciate!) more accurate systems, for prop engines, radars, weapon systems, etc. And it doesn't always have to mean learning a 300-page F-18 manual (for those modern systems, sure, but those ARE incredibly complex systems, aren't they?)

Edited November 24, 2006 by Stiglr

[tn_prvteye 36]

Well, I don't consider I'm "settling" for anything when I play the SF series. I have a great time flying them. And I fly for real, so you'd think that I'd be the hardest customer base to impress.

 

If you really want hard-core FM, then go fly for real. I'm serious. After you've done the real thing for awhile, you realize that "Full-Real" Flight models are really a joke. There's absolutely nothing that a home PC can do to fully replicate flight. I don't care how much money you throw into a project or how talented the developers are. Can these sims be fun and entertaining? Sure. Do I prefer these FMs to as "realistic" as possible given the restraints? You bet. But I don't just sit on the sidelines and whine about every new sim that doesn't meet my expectations.

 

With the SF series, it's so easy to mod, that even I have done FM mods for stock planes. Nothing big...just some tweaking to improve somethings I didn't like. The capability is there with TK's sims to make it as complex as you wish...it will just take some time and effort on your part to do it.

 

And I also hate the fact that you can't walk into your local EB Games and have a plethora of sims to chose from. But I live with it and adapt.

 

Could be worse, that's for sure.

Edited November 24, 2006 by tn_prvteye

[Sky Captain 0]

I know exactly where you're coming from, Stiglr. That's exactly how I feel some of the time. But the truth of the matter is that as time goes on, the companies who develop these games will become more and more focused on the money, and not gameplay, realism, and things like that. EA Games is a prime example - Take BF2142: It's basically an expensive mod of BF2, which is itself a steaming pile of cow crap, in it's unmodded state anyways. The days of the great sims are approaching their end, and the era of crappy, half-made games is very near, if not already here. I wish this weren't the case, but it is. There'll be a few companies on the side who really do care about their games (there always are), but the mainstream will be centered around the half-arsed "games" aforementioned.

Edited November 24, 2006 by Sky Captain

[Guest Stiglr]

But, if you're right, then it's up to us to NOT BUY crap and force them to change their priorities.

 

I know it's oversimplified, and there are a lot of factors at work, but in the end analysis, if it's money that drives their priorities, it has to come from US. And if we DEMAND better realism and quality FMs before we get up off that money, guess what? We'll get it.

[Sky Captain 0]

Yes, I've no doubt practically all the hard-core simmers won't by them, but guess what? 2/3's of the gaming community are button-mashing kids, without a care in the world about how realistic or how good the gameplay is, they just want this game and that game because 50 Cent promoted it. The hardcore simmers are not a large part of the mainstream gaming community, and that means good games won't be a top priority.

[+Zurawski 33]

Stiglr,

 

You misunderstand (or I simply explained it poorly... which is usually the case)...

 

When I say "we" I'm implying "combat flight simulation enthusiast" in general. We are a very small niche genre in general when compared to fantasy, sci-fi, FPShotters, and even RTSs. If it were not for MS flight sims I suspect we would be even more obscure. It's not the lowest common denominator... it's just we are a niche that is hardly on the fore front of pulishers "profit radar".

 

Between development costs, publishing, marketing... it's no longer cost effective for a publisher "hope" for a reasonable return on their invenstment... when they can cookie cutter the other genres and make notable profit. Mind you... in our minds, IL-2 etc... sold wonderfully... the reality is these sales were minuscule comparably

 

Hey, I don't like it either... but them's the facts.

 

"Switch stiddlers" is nothing but a generic reference to those of us who expect more from sims than eye-candy... and know the difference.

 

No insult implied or intended...

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, if you're right, then it's up to us to NOT BUY crap and force them to change their priorities.

 

I know it's oversimplified, and there are a lot of factors at work, but in the end analysis, if it's money that drives their priorities, it has to come from US. And if we DEMAND better realism and quality FMs before we get up off that money, guess what? We'll get it.

 

 

Hmmm...

 

Actually I suspect they would just continue making the products that make them money...

 

You put too much faith in the idea that that actually care what we want then to make for us.

[tank03 1]

The game developers are in this business in order to make money; it's their job. Period. I don't think it's fair that we blame them for trying to get the most economic return on their products. That's the nature of capitalism. And it's not like the product they are supplying us is absolute crap; and no product is going to please everyone. I think we are very fortunate that the games we do play have been created in such a way that we are able to modify and change them to our own liking.

 

At some point if you are unhappy about what is available in the marketplace you have to do something about it yourself. Either develop your own creations, or pay money to have someone else do it for you. Don't expect a game developer to put his livelihood in jeapardy in order to please a very few customers. That's bad business, and they all have mouths to feed.

I just think that if you really don't like what's available, don't blame TK et. al., go and create your own sims, or modify the ones available. That old saying, "If you want it done right, do it yourself" seems applicable here. Again, I'm thankful that TK has develop a game in which I can, to a certain extent, do it myself.