Some F-22 talk...

[+JSF_Aggie 1,292]

Posted on our homepage today from the AirForce Times.

 

F-22 Near Perfect in Combat Exercises (Posted: Tuesday, July 31, 2007)

[AirForceTimes.com, July 30, 2007]

 

Internet rumors have swirled for months over whether any F-22s had been taken down in simulated combat exercises. Discussion forums are rife with Navy pilots touting a controversial photo appearing to show an F/A-18F Super Hornet gunning down a Raptor.

 

The F-22’s debut combat exercise was at Northern Edge in June 2006. According to Air Force data, the dozen F-22s in attendance racked up an unprecedented kill record of 144-0 the first week alone and suffered no losses overall.

 

The Raptor’s only other combat exercise so far was Red Flag 07-1, held Feb. 3-16 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. The Air Force released no data indicating an F-22 shootdown.

 

But according to the March 5 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology, one Raptor got blasted.

 

In the article, Col. Tom Bergeson, the exercise’s air expeditionary commander, described the situation: When one aggressor went down, it was able to fly out and regenerate so quickly that an F-22 pilot thought the enemy was still “dead,” and got shot down himself for the mistake.

 

One thing is for sure: The plane that took down the Raptor was an F-15 or F-16, but not an F/A-18F. When asked whether a Superbug might have claimed a kill, one Air Force public affairs officer scoffed, “Not bloody likely.”

 

Though the Raptor may not have a perfect record, it still got high praise during the exercise.

 

“The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy,” said one Australian aggressor pilot at the time. “It’s the most frustrated I’ve ever been.”

[BUFF 8]

“The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy,” said one Australian aggressor pilot at the time. “It’s the most frustrated I’ve ever been.”

Unfortunately with other aircraft now fielding helmet mounted sights & missiles that follow that direction that advantage won't last long.

[tw7222 0]

Unfortunately with other aircraft now fielding helmet mounted sights & missiles that follow that direction that advantage won't last long.

 

 

I had heard that an F-16 @ RF got off a amraam shot at a F-22. But it was a wash as the F-22 engaged at the same time.

[+Dave 2,322]

Unfortunately with other aircraft now fielding helmet mounted sights & missiles that follow that direction that advantage won't last long.

 

However, the bad guys will never get that close to a F-22 to even use it. It will kill you dead and you will never knew what it was that killed you. Its stealth technology and passive detection systems will make the bad guys a target long before anyone know the F-22's are in the area. You have to see it to kill it and you can't see it.

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

... Until the competition flies stealth fighters of their own of course, which makes all things even again...

[Guest Tazkiller]

Never in the history of air combat, has there been an aircraft that could not be shot down.

 

To believe an aircraft now or in the future will not be unmatched or overtaken is simply this.

 

STUPID!!!!!

 

Edited to keep politics out...again. FastCargo

Edited August 1, 2007 by FastCargo

[+Dave 2,322]

Never in the history of air combat, has there been an aircraft that could not be shot down.To believe an aircraft now or in the future will not be unmatched or overtaken is simply this.STUPID!!!!!Edited to keep politics out...again. FastCargo

Never said it couldn't be shot down. Any of them can be. The F-15 has never lost in A2A combat doesn't mean it can't be shot down one day either. Its the guy who see the other first who will win.

... Until the competition flies stealth fighters of their own of course, which makes all things even again...

Very true.

[Guest Tazkiller]

Never said it couldn't be shot down. Any of them can be. The F-15 has never lost in A2A combat doesn't mean it can't be shot down one day either. Its the guy who see the other first who will win.Very true.

 

But examine very closely. The F-15 never faced a truely worthy appoinent. Just like taking stats in college, u can make stats show anything. Don't get me wrong. I love the Eagle. But fact are facts. As we have discussed before Dave the U.S. has not faced true opposition in many years!!!

[FastCargo 412]

And the answer to that is: So What?

 

The airwar's job is to destroy the enemy's capacity to threaten our ground forces using air assets, and to support our ground forces and overall politcal objectives.

 

I don't care if that means we destroy every single aircraft on the ground and the F-22, F-15, whatever ends up boring holes in the sky because there is nothing left to shoot at.

 

I don't care if it means the first targets in the air are cargo resupply aircraft, AWACS,J-Stars equivalents, and tankers.

 

I don't care if it means the enemy's air war ends because we blowup their main C&C bunker with a MOAB.

 

The F-22 is not stand alone system, it's part of an intergrated system that's designed to defeat an enemy's ability to make war from the air.

 

There's a reason the F-15 hasn't faced a decent opponent until recently...because we're good at the air war! That's why the F-22 and soon the F-35 exist. And why future systems such as UCAVs are around. And why we train, Train, TRAIN. Because it's about turning the enemy into hair, teeth, and eyeballs. It's not about looking good at airshows, it's not about what something might do in a knight's of the sky, mano e' mano, gun only match.

 

It's about sneaking behind your enemies back, and giving him and his buddies an AMRAAM enema and vanishing. Period.

 

Will it last forever? Heck no. There are always future developments. Hell, advancements in computing may make all manned fighters obsolete. The airborne laser may be improved and start swatting aircraft from the sky 'Star Wars' style.

 

But not at the moment.

 

FastCargo

[+Dave 2,322]

*RANT ON*

 

And that ladies and gentleman sums it up. It has nothing to do with what our opposition has or has not. We don't care to be honest, we care defeating that threat. That is what I do for a living now working C2 for AWACS. My job is to deny the enemy use of the air. Will there be dogfights in the future? Sure, but you know what, that is not about what we do. It’s about killing them before that happens using the technology we have. Too many of you still think its like Korea or Vietnam. But it isn’t, and as I said its about who can swat them out of the sky first and the team with the better training and toys wins. Other countries do have great toys, but lack the training programs at the great lengths the USAF, USN, USA and USMC go to train their pilots.

I am sorry if I am touting how great the US military air arms are but we ARE that damn good. We train to fly, fight and win. Period. Everyday my AWACS go up to train. I can't tell you how many training sorties we fly a day as well as training / air controlling with other units in the US who are training too. The amount is staggering. It’s easy to read a few articles and thus you are now an "expert" but people like FC and I do it for a living. We know the reality of it that no article or internet forum or arm chair pilot will ever know.

 

Some of you who fly WOE/SF/WOV have talked about wanting modern scenarios to fly in. Well take Desert Storm for example, if we do a mod like that like it was, guess what, people would complain by the lack of opposition or difficulty. It will start out intense but by the 2 week of the campaign, there was little to no opposition to the air campaign. And don't blah blah blah me to death about how inept Saddam’s forces were, it was until after, was that realized. At the time Baghdad was one of the most heavily defended cities in the world and he had the 4th largest air force in the world. We estimated that the first night we were going to lose at least 2 or 3 dozen aircraft. But training, planning and execution turned those figures into nothing but cow poo poo. That folks is total air dominance. That is how to fly an air war.

 

 

*RANT OFF*

[JediMaster 451]

The good news is once you CAN get close enough to a Raptor to see it (as would happen if it faced a plane as stealthy as it was), it can more than outfly any other fighter now in the air.

[FastCargo 412]

Folks, please don't misunderstand us. We're not bragging, or trying to be cool, or anything like that. What we are trying to do is apply real world experience to the discussion.

 

The USAF and other services learned some very hard lessons in Korea and Vietnam...namely, that technology isn't enough, it's how you train. So as much as you hear about military spending debacles, failures of tech, etc, etc. be aware that the operators do get it done.

 

If a system has limitations, we either fix them, or change our tactics to minimize them. We constantly evaluate the state of our training and change programs to fix them. It's the new blood, the young 1Lts, Capts, Majors (in the pilot field) who constantly challenge the status quo and make a difference to adapt to new threats.

 

Also, when we train against other countries, if we're getting training, the countries imitate the main threat we face. If we are helping them train, then we imitate the threat.

 

Example: In 1995 I played with the Canadian CF-188s up at Bagotville CFB in Quebec. We were helping them work on their intercept procedures. I was in a B-1B...but I wasn't playing one in the field. I was playing a 'threat bomber' using specific 'threat procedures' and techniques.

 

Another example: People make a big deal about the Indian exercise with Su-30s against F-15Cs. What you don't hear about is the ROE the Eagles were using. They were most definitely NOT flying as USAF Eagles. That kind of training doesn't do as much good as flying against what you might actually face.

 

So when you hear the results of an exercise...context is everything. Unless you know the exact ROE, results can be meaningless.

 

No one is harder on our tactics and our machines than ourselves...sit in on a fighter debrief and you'll see what I mean.

 

FastCargo

[BUFF 8]

However, it never does to underestimate a potential enemy & for sure the US forces aren't the only people that have taken lessons out of recent conflicts.

 

The good news is that the ones most likely in quality terms to match (or even on occasion beat) the US forces are a) smaller & b) on the same side.

[+Typhoid 231]

However, it never does to underestimate a potential enemy & for sure the US forces aren't the only people that have taken lessons out of recent conflicts.

 

The good news is that the ones most likely in quality terms to match (or even on occasion beat) the US forces are a) smaller & b) on the same side.

 

absolutely and to get serious again, for a moment, all military advances are temporary. The other side adapts. Yes, stealth can be shot down. Stealth by itself is not a panacea air supremacy. Everyone else out there is developing capabilities to counter our stealth advantages.

 

someone said that the helmet cued sighting might overcome that advantage when you are into the close-in knifefight. Yes but - the weapon has to be able to aquire the target. So what stealth might end up driving to is back to the days of visual sighting and guns.

 

the lastest series of 5th generation aircraft are all pretty outstanding including the Typhoon, Rafales, Raptors and advanced Flankers. exercises, because of the scripted ROE's, are of limited usefulness in determining advantages and disadvantages. And actual combat is very terrain and scenario dependent.

 

One has to prepare for the worst and bleed in peace to limit how much one bleeds in war.

 

Rant off

[John 0]

Okay I've heard more then enough of you arm chair Fighter pilots. I worked on the Prototype F-119-Pw-100

Engines for the F-22 so I have a damn good idea of what reality is as far as this airframe goes.

First Helmet sights are all well and good BUT with these cavets....

Sure you can get an initial lock on a raptor or any stealthed aircraft BFD unless you have an active data link to the weapon (missile) that is absoulutly jam proof that first lock doesn't mean s**t. Once the bird leaves the rail it's on it's own and are subject to the inherent design features that make a lock so hard to get on a Stealthed aircraft even more so as Radar guided weapons by shear size cannot carry the same order of power radar as an aircraft, IR signatures by nozzle design and other features of a stealthed aircraft are suppressed,laser guided weapons need a beam held on the target until impact and in a dogfight if your target fixated your gonna get zeroed by another fighter especially if this laser is guided by a helmet site. Even more so what good is it going to do you if you see the bird and it is out of both your gun cone and weapons launch envelope not to damn much.

Given the advance in threat warning systems a stealhted aircraft with the manuver capbility of the f-22 Raptor /F-35 Lightning unless the pilot is asleep at the switch is going to be a very tough opponent no matter who the enemy is.

Stealth and super or hyper manuverability has now made Air Combat more like Submarine warfare where if you can see them or hear them before they hear or see you you win.

Further no matter what the equipment the better pilot in a given situation is going to prevail.

I read in this thread "the f-15 has never faced an equal in combat" BULLs**t ask Fighter pilots from Isreal and in the first gulf war F-15's went up against the Mirage F-1 and 2000's along with Mig 29's all three equal to the f-15 and f-16 on design anyway. The difference is training and the will to prevail. Even better in red flag f-15's, f-16's and f-14's had a hell of a time against F-5's and when faced with F-105's the 105's played land shark got low and out ran the F-15's and F-14's and leftr the 16's gasping for air.

Edited August 1, 2007 by John

[+Typhoid 231]

Okay I've heard more then enough of you arm chair Fighter pilots.

 

who are you calling an arm chair pilot?

[+Dave 2,322]

who are you calling an arm chair pilot?

 

I don't think he means us Typhoid.

 

Good points John.

[+Typhoid 231]

I don't think he means us Typhoid.

 

Good points John.

 

(puts safety back on....)

 

[BUFF 8]

Even better in red flag f-15's, f-16's and f-14's had a hell of a time against F-5's and when faced with F-105's the 105's played land shark got low and out ran the F-15's and F-14's and leftr the 16's gasping for air.

Similarly, when the RAF first took the Buccaneer to Red Flag in the 70s for almost the whole 2 weeks the USAF didn't get a single kill on them (until they reevaluated their tactics) because they had never met an aircraft/crew that flew that low, that fast & with it's range/tactics.

The SAM crews apparently had a bad time of it too.

 

Not unique though as the RAF fighter squadrons who regularly practiced against them with Lightnings & Phantoms had a devil of a job too.

[GASCAN39 7]

Similarly, when the RAF first took the Buccaneer to Red Flag in the 70s for almost the whole 2 weeks the USAF didn't get a single kill on them (until they reevaluated their tactics) because they had never met an aircraft/crew that flew that low, that fast & with it's range/tactics.

The SAM crews apparently had a bad time of it too.

 

Not unique though as the RAF fighter squadrons who regularly practiced against them with Lightnings & Phantoms had a devil of a job too.

 

 

The Brits have always been touted for their "in the weeds" abilities. The old man got to go for a backseat jaunt in a Buc from XV Squadron at Laarbruch. When they landef he asked for a clean pair of underwear - (upon returning from taking a brit up in an F-4, the brit commented that he was not used to flying that high)

I got to see a pair of them beating up the countryside while we were on the Autobahn that same year, something to behold!

[MigBuster 2,884]

Wow - this place is becoming like f-16.net - check out the 4million threads on the F-22 is over there btw

 

In regards to importance of tactics - Heres a fave Vietnam excerpt of mine from Jack Broughton (F-105 pilot) re the NVA Migs:

 

" I have often marvelled at the Migs amazing lack of success. I know airplanes very well and my three years of leading the USAF demonstration team, The Thunderbirds, did nothing to dim my perception or relative maximum performance capability among different aircraft. I have fought with the Migs in two wars now - be they declared, recognised, popular or not - and i never saw any general indication that the Mig drivers faced thus far were using the maximum skill or technical capability available to them.

I don't think you would have a found a truly professional fighter pilot who would not have sold his front seat in Hell to be a Mig squadron Commander in the face of an American fighter-bomber attack, should such a transformation be possible in our world of reality. Please remember I am only speaking professionally and am not expressing any desire to go the rice and fish route. I am simply saying that they could murder us if they did the job property."

 

 

 

re IR suppression - that would involve not using the afterburner ever would it? So called experts tout that the latest gen IR missiles can see the friction off a planes wing! suppress that.