1989 World in Conflict based campaign

[ShadowRain X Zero 0]

Hey guys,

 

Some of you guys know me as the maker of the Wings over Europe 2007: Operation Final Dawn campaign beta. It's just a result of my free time and I'm sorry for the guys who had problems with it. That campaign was a bit of of place because of the old planes and my lack of knowledge with the modern planes. But after playing World in conflict i had the idea of changing the date to 1989 and giving it the same vibe of a European war (or was it world war 3?) set by said game.

 

I seek advice on what planes, ships, army units and other objects to put in the campaign especially the Soviet ones. I also seek permission to add those said stuff from their respective makers.

 

So far what i have in mind are the usual F-14, F-15, F-16, FA-18, A-10, B-52, Tornado, Harriers, and Fulcrums.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[+Gocad 26]

Well, I would include the following aircraft:

 

USAF:

F-111F (Rare)

F-16 (also used by other European airforces)

F-15

F-4G (Rare)

A-10

F-4E (maybe)

USN:

F-14

F/A-18

RAF

Jaguar

Tornado

Harrier

Phantom FGR (maybe)

Luftwaffe:

Tornado

F-4F

RCAF:

CF-18

I don't know where to put the French, but if you want to include them use the Mirage F1

 

Commies:

MIG-21,23 (East European AF)

MIG-27,29 (Soviet only)

Su-27 (maybe, but should be rare and Soviet only)

Su-22

 

IMHO everything else would be out of place. And all the planes I have listed are available here.

Edited January 1, 2008 by Gocad

[Wolf65 0]

Didn't east germany have Mig-29s?

[+Florian 394]

Didn't east germany have Mig-29s?

Yes, they had. After the reunion, west german Luftwaffe adopted a few of some and used them along the F-4F as fighters. With the near arrival of our EF-2000, the remaining MiG-29 were "sold" to poland for 1 Euro, a year ago (or two?).

[+Gunrunner 314]

It all depends on the history behind the conflict.

 

You have to answer a few questions :

- What started the conflict ?

- Had anyone time to prepare for the conflict or was the eruption of the war a surprise for nearly everyone ?

- When does your campaign starts, at the very start of the conflict or a few weeks later once everyone had time to organize, resupply, take positions in the Atlantic and suffered tremendous attrition ?

- Do other nations join in on the fun, opening other theatres and stretching US forces thin, or can the US concentrate on defending Europe ?

 

Then you can start thinking about which nations still have a capacity to fight, the level of supplies, the losses, the troops sent into the Central European theatre, etc..

Keep in mind that in 1989 it was estimated that Europe could fight 3 weeks of a WW3-type conflict without resupply, but after that we were all out of ammo and planes, the main effort of the US and Western navies would be to secure the Northern Atlantic, meaning you would see very little USN planes in Central Europe (they would be out in Iceland and the Northern Atlantic), very few USMC presence (they would be defending Norway, and unless Norway fell, would not be seen much in Central Europe (most Harriers you'd see in CE would be British ones)), as well you wouldn't see some British types over CE as they would be used to patrol the GIUK gap.

 

Some basic source material to get numbers, types and the overall feeling of such a conflict would be :

- Red Storm Rising, by Tom Clancy

- Soviet Military Power reports produced by the DoD until at least 1991, the most interesting would be 1987, 1988 and 1989, to get a sense of progression of forces (unless you want to rewrite history over a long period of time).

- Any literature relating to the organization and composition of the USAFE, the TwoATAF and FourATAF.

 

Concerning French involvement, by types :

- Mirage 2000C : We started receiving them in 1984, replacing Mirage F.1C, they would have been to precious at home and we don't have yet a model.

- Mirage F.1C : Most would have stayed protecting France, but being phased out in favour of the 2000, some units might end up operating either with the FATac, or as escort.

- Mirage F.1CR : The tactical reconnaissance variant, recently received, would have been used by the FATac over Germany.

- Mirage 5F : Would have been used, but we lack the proper model for it.

- Mirage IIIE : Would have been part of the French presence in Germany, helping slow down armor units.

- Mirage IIIC : The last ones were retired in 1988 being replaced by Mirage IIIE or Mirage F.1C, but most were stored, so it would not be unreasonable to see some resurface should attrition dictate it.

- Jaguar A : Probably the main French presence over Germany, unfortunately we lack the right model at the moment.

 

Let's consider the forces in presence, limited by the map available :

- Friendlies :

- West Germany (part of the TwoATAF and FourATAF)

- United Kingdom (part of the TwoATAF and FourATAF)

- Canada (part of the FourATAF)

- Austria (probably very fast out of an air force, but to take into account)

- Denmark (little presence, the Baltic being their main concern)

- Belgium (part of the TwoATAF)

- Netherlands (part of the TwoATAF)

- Italy (too busy in the Adriatic and Mediterranean)

- Switzerland (neutral and of no interesting use)

- France (keeping most interesting units at home but helping in the tactical strikes, probably basing units in Germany)

- US Air Force Europe (unfortunately we can't have units based in England, but unless the conflict went nuclear, the F-111E/F wouldn't be seen much over Europe)

- US Navy (too busy in the Atlantic and unless the Atlantic AND the Mediterranean are lost OR there has been an attrition severe enough and no other ready replacement, we shouldn't see much of them).

- US Marines (too busy in Norway and Iceland)

- Enemies :

- USSR (Russia and other soviet states with no proper air forces)

- Poland

- Czechoslovakia

- East Germany

- Hungary

Edited January 1, 2008 by Gunrunner

[Wolf65 0]

- Austria (probably very fast out of an air force, but to take into account)

 

Isn't Austria a neutral country.

Edited January 1, 2008 by Wolf65

[bucklehead101 29]

For the Navy you also should consider:

EA-6B

A-6E (TRAM/SWIP)

S-3B

possibly an E-2 flying around.

 

For the USAF, since its 1989, the F-4E would be online with the pave-tack system. The F-4G should also be included do to its unique roll.

[ShadowRain X Zero 0]

@Gunrunner

 

I'm assuming that you haven't played the campaign of the sierra game world in conflict. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

Well to answer some of your questions...

 

- What started the conflict ?

--Based on the WoC wikipedia, "The game is set in 1989 where economic troubles cripple the Soviet Union and threaten to dissolve it. However, the title pursues an alternate history scenario where the Soviet Union does not collapse and instead pursues a course of war to remain in power."

 

- Had anyone time to prepare for the conflict or was the eruption of the war a surprise for nearly everyone ?

--Only the Soviets had time to prepare. Everyone else was caught by surprise. Even the US which was also invaded at Seattle.

 

- When does your campaign starts, at the very start of the conflict or a few weeks later once everyone had time to organize, resupply, take positions in the Atlantic and suffered tremendous attrition ?

--I'm thinking of starting it after the US repelled the Soviet invasion of the West Coast. The US is out for revenge but first they have to retake Central Europe.

 

- Do other nations join in on the fun, opening other theaters and stretching US forces thin, or can the US concentrate on defending Europe ?

--US forced are spread thin due to. France was invaded in the game by the reds. US is on the offensive on Central Europe but forces are low due to the attack.

 

By the way, I also plan to make it into a nuclear war. Any help with the story would be welcome too.

[TurtleHawk 6]

I can't contribute anything, but I think it's a great idea.

Let me know if you need a tester.

 

And, Happy New Year!!

[ShadowRain X Zero 0]

I also need bombers. Both conventional and nuclear. and based from the weapons pack which nukes do the reds and yanks have during 1988 or 1989?

[+Gocad 26]

- US Air Force Europe (unfortunately we can't have units based in England, but unless the conflict went nuclear, the F-111E/F wouldn't be seen much over Europe)

 

Eh? The F-111E/F weren't nuke carriers, they were tactical strike aircraft, using conventional ordnance.

[+Gunrunner 314]

Wolf65>

Absolutely, but Austria doesn't have the same geographic, financial and military safeguards as Switzerland and would have had to take an active part in defending their territory, and since the WP would have been the ones menacing their frontiers and they lack the forces to withstand the push for very long, they would either have had to surrender fast or "accept" NATO's support.

From a gamer's point of view, the last option is the most interesting, besides, you could try and design a friendly campaign with Austrian units whose purpose is purely defensive over Austria.

 

ShadowRain X Zero>

Sorry, the whole WoC scenario doesn't make much sense, even though Larry Bond collaborated (probably took the money to finance something really worth his talent).

 

Gocad>

You're right, my bad -_-

Don't know where that came from... an unconscious way to solve the problem of not having Upper Heyford or Lakenheath on the map.

[Mike463 0]

Try a web search for "Order of Battle" 1988 for USAFE, Warsaw Pact, etc. Here's an example for USAFE (scroll down on link for more air forces)-

 

http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/nato/oob1989.html

US AIR FORCE - EUROPE (USAFE)

 

1. US 3^rd Air Force HQ - Mildenhall, United Kingdom:

 

a. 10^th TFW - Alconbury, UK: 2 squadrons of 18 A-10 each

 

b. 20^th TFW - Upper Heyford, UK: 3 squadrons of 24 F-111E each

 

c. 48^th TFW - Lakenheath, UK: 3 squadrons of 24 F-111F each

 

d. 81^st TFW - Bentwaters, UK: 4 squadrons of 18 A-10 each, 1 squadron of 18-F-16C

 

e. 501^st Tactical Missile Wing (TMW) - RAF Greenham Common, UK: 64 BGM-109G GLCM

 

f. 503^rd Tactical Missile Wing (TMW) - RAF Molesworth, UK: 64 BGM-109G GLCM (withdrawn in 1989)

 

2. US 17^th Air Force HQ - Sembach, FRG:

 

a. 36^th TFW - Bitburg AB, FRG: 3 Squadrons of 24 F-15C each

 

b. 50^th TFW - Hahn AB, FRG: 3 Squadrons of 24 F-16C each

 

c. 52^nd TFW - Spangdahlem AB, FRG: 3 Squadrons of 24 F-16C each, 1 Squadron F-4G WW

 

d. 86^th TFW - Ramstein AB, FRG: 3 Squadrons of 24 F-16C each

 

e. 32^nd TFS - Soesterberg AB, Holland: 24 F-15C

 

f. 26^th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing (TRW) - Zweibrucken, FRG: 2 Squadrons of 18 RF-4C each

 

g. 66^th Electronic Countermeasures Wing (ECW) - Upper Heyford, UK: 18 EF-111A

 

h. 38^th Tactical Missile Wing (TMW) - Wuescheim AB, Germany: 64 BGM-109G GLCM

 

i. 39^th Tactical Missile Wing (TMW) - Florennes AB, Belgium: 48 BGM-109G GLCM

 

3. US 16^th Air Force HQ - Torrejon, Spain:

 

a. 401^st TFW - Torrejon, Spain: 3 Squadrons of 24 F-16C each

 

b. 487^th TMW - Comiso AB, Italy: 64 BGM-109G GLCM

 

Yours, Mike

 

USAFE '88-'92

Edited January 1, 2008 by Mike463

[Viggen 644]

All the following is with what is availble for WOE as of NOW.

 

 

I'll help you with the Soviet Armor units if needed. While Red Storm Rising takes place in 1987, the likely hood of units changing is low. Just some pointers for the Commies on the ground;

 

Catagory A units: Experienced, better trained and equipt, mostly Guards Divisions armed with T-72s.

 

Catagory B: Older weapons, no experiance, similar training to Catagory A, some Guards Divisions, armed with T-62s.

 

Catagory C: Outdated weapons, training, old men and recruits, no Guards Divisions, armed with T-55s.

 

 

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

 

Soviet Air Power for invasion of west:

 

Mostly using MiG-23s as for air superiority. After those start to fail, MiG-29s and Su-27s become more and more common along with reserve units. MiG-21Rs are used for foward recon. Close air support is given by Su-17s, Su-22s, MiG-27s, and Mi-24s. Possibly reserve air divisions are armed with MiG-21Bis and Su-7s. Tu-16s are used for Anti-Shipping. Tu-22 Blinders are used for SEAD.

Edited January 1, 2008 by JA 37 Viggen

[+Jarhead1 27]

Cant forget the Su-25 frogfoot and the Su-24 Fencer

[Viggen 644]

Cant forget the Su-25 frogfoot and the Su-24 Fencer

 

 

Like I said this is stuff availible at this very second.

[+Gocad 26]

Cant forget the Su-25 frogfoot and the Su-24 Fencer

 

Right now mentioning those planes is like asking for a Phased-plasma rifle in the forty watt range...

[Viggen 644]

After playing the default WOE 1979 campaign, I noticed that the Catagory A and B already exist.

 

 

 

 

 

Also you could include Yugoslav fighters flying against everyone!

[+Spectre_USA 7]

That OOB Mike463 (Weapons?) popped in looks dialed in.

 

Was in USAFE earlier, 80 - 83, at RAF Bentwaters which also had a sister base, RAF Woodbridge, to house that A-10 "SuperWing."

 

The Falcons flew in a few times from reserve units on deployment, so I can see a comfortable fit to have a squadron there as well.

 

Would love it if the East coast of England had somehow made it into WoE, but the 81st did forward deploy to 6 FOLs in Germany.

 

Very cool idea here, would like to see it make it, maybe even with the Su's 24 & 25.

[gerald14 0]

After playing the default WOE 1979 campaign, I noticed that the Catagory A and B already exist.

 

 

 

 

 

Also you could include Yugoslav fighters flying against everyone!

 

yeah

[echoco 0]

Campaign ideas could be to start of with some under strength USAFE/European squadrons trying to hold on for a few months waiting for reinforcements, or you could have playable USAF forces starting at the beginning and Navy/Marine squadrons starting maybe 4months-a year later.

 

I don't know NATO's strategy during that time, does anyone know whats the game plan for USN 6th fleet in Italy if the Cold War actually got hot? Possibly block in the Black Sea fleet?

[Doghouse 0]

You might want to read "Fighter Wing: A Guided Tour of an Airforce Combat Wing" by Tom Clancy. It's quite an insight into the USAF and their strategies. And it's a most excellent read as well.

[+Gocad 26]

Campaign ideas could be to start of with some under strength USAFE/European squadrons trying to hold on for a few months waiting for reinforcements, or you could have playable USAF forces starting at the beginning and Navy/Marine squadrons starting maybe 4months-a year later.

 

I doubt that a clash of NATO and WP forces in central europe would have lasted for months. It would have been over within a few weeks. Besides, it's no like the US military would have needed months to ship units to Europe, especially not air units.

Edited January 2, 2008 by Gocad

[Viggen 644]

yeah

 

Hey Gerald we finish that Serb MiG-29 then see what happens!

 

EDIT: I've been thinking about Italy in this and what was posted about the 6th fleet brings up a point. It is likely that AMI Tonkas would have been busy aiding the USN and Hellenic Air Force in shutting the Black Sea Fleet down. I would however use the Italian Starfighters for NATO support.

Edited January 2, 2008 by JA 37 Viggen

[Doghouse 0]

That's quite right, it wouldn't have taken months, nor would it take weeks. The U.S. would have had an "airforce" in there within 24 hours to hold defensive positions, and within 36 hours capable of taking it to the enemy. Read that book and you'll find out how it would have been done. Plus you'll get a wealth of information to use for all sorts of campaigns.