WoI Historic Mods Thread

[lazboy 0]

In doing some background reading on the Arab - Israeli air conflicts I came across the fact that in two of the conflicts Pakistani pilots flew on behalf Syrian, Jordan and Egypt.

 

According to official Pakistani sources Lietenant Saifu Azam participated in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. with the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected.

 

Azam had earlier on 5 June 1967, with his flight of four Hawker Hunter fighter’s engaged Israeli Dassault Super Mysteres jet’s attacking RJAF Mafraq, the major Jordanian air base. Azam shot one down and sent another smoking towards Israel.

 

During the Yom Kippur War of 1973 16 PAF pilots volunteered to leave for the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived Egypt had already agreed on a cease-fire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel so the PAF pilots became instructors there and formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr AB. Later on PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi was honoured by the Syrian government,.

 

Does anyone happen to know whether the aircraft flown by the Pakistani pilots had any distinctive markings that would have distinguished them from the other aircraft of their host nations?

 

Lazboy

.

 

[Wrench 9,471]

To the best of my knowledge, they were just in standard colors. After all they weren't really there, were they? wink,wink, nudge nudge

 

Thanks Ant! I totally forgot about the Fitter-C!!!!

 

EDIT: ok, I'm dumb...either that's a new EAF skin and you're holding out on us , or I'm just not finding it. I'll keep looking.

 

Looks like they (well, Su-20 versions) starting arriving AFTER the 6 Day war, were used in the 73 War, and against the Lybians in 77 (5 Day War) -- according to SSP "Arab Air Forces"

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[+Dave 2,318]

Ok best I could do with the spine but its uniform on both sides. I think it looks good and it has the panel lines. Also the non orange triangle ones.

[+LloydNB 212]

Hi Wrench

 

I love what you did with the EAF F-4. There are some good ideas for re-packaging western aircraft for Arab use.

 

Some of the other aircraft that need similar treatment are: Vampire (Egypt/Jordan), Venom (Iraq), Harvard (Egypt, Syria), C-47 (Egypt/Syria/Jordan), Hawker Fury (Egypt, Iraq), Avro Lancaster (Egypt), Cobra (Jordan), Sea King (Egypt), Blackhawk (Egypt), EMB-312 Tucano (Egypt), C-130 (Egypt, Jordan), Wessex Mk52 (Iraq), Whirlwind (Jordan). And there are heaps more. That's an awful lot of western weapons that have to be duplicated for a WP loadout.

 

LloydNB

[+Dave 2,318]

Ok I updated the file to fix the missile rails, that MJ had to make fun of me about.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autoc...p;showfile=6237

 

It now includes 2 EAF skins. Thanks to Ant and Hnrtfxr for the help.

[+Crusader 2,052]

ADs model is a Su-17M-4 Fitter-K ...

[Wrench 9,471]

This one's nearly ready...this the best I could do to duplicate the Sakr rocket rack...

 

 

I'll tell ya how I did it in the readme..... It'll be released as a full aircraft w/cockpit (mod of Mk2's scooter pit - metricized), but minus the skin as it's using the stock 'Nile1' or EAFCamo1 that's in game.

 

When I get bored with other stuff (like finishing off the IDF AD mod for IsrealME, and adding the needed bridges), I go and fiddle with this...having some issues with the mapping, but it's coming along slowly....

 

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[+Dave 2,318]

Good work Kev. If you all get a chance try out the updated 5DE.

[+Johan217 5]

Some good info on Israeli A2A missiles provided by Ziker on SimHQ: http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?...602#Post2473602

It may be a good idea to adapt the weapons supply in the Yom Kippur campaign to reflect how the IDF wasn't prepared for the war. Also, according to some info the ECM-pods would have been used only after a week of fighting.

 

I'm tweaking Wrench's terrain update for use with the Suez campaign, mostly adding a few targets that will serve as waypoints for the ground offensives. I'm also changing a few anachronisms such as "Ben Gurion" which would have been "Lod" in 1956. It's possible that I will need to remove the airbase upgrades from the targets.ini because in my previous campaign set this was causing problems for ground offensives (frontline movement).

 

Also, is it possible to use the WOI airfield.inis to get the static aircraft, or do I need to edit the existing inis?

[+Dave 2,318]

Some official numbers on the operation of AAMs by the IAF during the Yom Kippur War.

 

On the eve of the Yom Kippur war the IAF operated slightly over 1,000 AAMs of 4 different types. The AIM-9D, AIM-9G, Shafrir 2 and AIM-7E*.

 

Shafrir 2 missiles were operated by 76 Shahaks and Neshers operated by four Squadrons:"The First Fighter Squadron", "The first Jet Squadron", "Defenders of the Arava" and "Hornet" Squadrons.

 

The IDF and IAF were surprised by the opening of hostilities on 6th October 1973, and did not fight according to the established training and doctrine. As a result, air superiority was not achieved and the beginning of the war and the Arab air-forces were not destroyed on the ground.

 

These conditions led to a relatively high number of air victories during the war, totaling at 227. About half of these victories were achieved by AAMs.

 

Statistical Distribution of AAM air victories during the Yom Kippur war:

 

Shafrir 2: Launched 176 – Kills 89 – Kill rate 50.5% - % of total kills 32.1%

AIM-9D/G : Launched 132 – Kills 52.5 – Kill rate 39.8% - % of total kills 18.9%

AIM-7E: Launched 12 – Kills 3 – Kill rate 25% - % of total kills 1.1%

 

The article claims these statistics show that the Shafir 2 was the most successful AAM operated by the IAF during the Yom Kippur war. I must add that since the bulk of A2A missions were flown by Shahaks and Neshers, this may have lead to more favorable conditions for the Shafir 2.

 

David Ivri attributed the Shafir 2s success not only to it's reliability but to strict training and indoctrination of pilots to strictly adhere to the launch envelope. Especially in the "First Jet Squadron" and "Defenders of the Arava" squadron that preferred the Shafir 2 despite it's higher weight and drag.

 

* on page 49 Weinberg mentions that the IAF received AIM-9Hs in 1971, strangely they are not mentioned in the Yom-Kippur statistics.

 

Source: an IAF history department official article on the Shafrir 2

 

"Shafrir 2 – Development and Operation of an Air-to-Air Missile", by Moshe Weinberg, published on www.iaf.org.il history section.

 

I am pasting that info ehre as its to good to be missed.

[+ghostrider883 526]

In doing some background reading on the Arab - Israeli air conflicts I came across the fact that in two of the conflicts Pakistani pilots flew on behalf Syrian, Jordan and Egypt.

 

According to official Pakistani sources Lietenant Saifu Azam participated in the Arab Israeli conflict of June 1967. with the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror. Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by Capt Golan, who ejected.

 

Azam had earlier on 5 June 1967, with his flight of four Hawker Hunter fighter’s engaged Israeli Dassault Super Mysteres jet’s attacking RJAF Mafraq, the major Jordanian air base. Azam shot one down and sent another smoking towards Israel.

 

During the Yom Kippur War of 1973 16 PAF pilots volunteered to leave for the Middle East in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived Egypt had already agreed on a cease-fire. Syria remained in a state of war against Israel so the PAF pilots became instructors there and formed the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr AB. Later on PAF pilot Flt. Lt. Sattar Alvi was honoured by the Syrian government,.

 

Does anyone happen to know whether the aircraft flown by the Pakistani pilots had any distinctive markings that would have distinguished them from the other aircraft of their host nations?

 

Lazboy

.

 

 

The fighters flown by Pakistani pilots fo the Arab countries did not have any special markings. the pilots were designated to Arab countries as part of some sort of "Islamic brotherhood" programme. In the Indo-Pak 71 war, some RJAF F-104As were flown to Pakistan to take part in the war...some RJAF F-104s were shot down in the war.

ON a side note, Saiful Azam flew with four different air forces - Pakistan(1965 Indo-Pak War), Iraq/Jordan 1967(Six day War), Bangladesh( from 1971 onwards). He shot Indian fighters in the 1965 war as well.

[Wrench 9,471]

Johan: you can try editing the airfiled inis; it's something I didn't want to mess with, given the fact that the 'parked planes' will no doubt be part of the forthcoming patches for the rest of the series.

 

As to names (like Lod for isntance), I just got lazy and didn't want to mess with it!!

 

Lloyd: I'm slowly but surely working on it!! Iragi Venmon??? Did they atually participate in anything, or is this just a 'nice to have thing???

 

The Vamp's are easy; I could assemble my package and upload it at any time. It uses pre-existing skins just redecaled, and that modified Spit-pit (1Jet_Cockpit)

 

The Sea Fury's always had problems, expecially the EAF version...never seems to want to take any weapons.

 

Creating/duplicating weapons is easy...skins are hard!!!

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[+LloydNB 212]

Wrench

 

Don't worry about the Sea Fury. I think I've got that covered. Since I have a few appropriate skins, I'll tackle the Vampire as well.

 

A little addition to the the stock MiG-17F (17 Squadron, 1967).

 

LloydNB

Edited March 21, 2008 by LloydNB

[RogueSnake 0]

Haven't took the time to read this whole thread, so this may have been posted.

I found this nice thread full of pictures from the Yum kippur war. Might make some nice loading screens with a few of them.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68771

[Wrench 9,471]

I'd have done the rudder checks as a decal; makes them just a little brighter. But a great addition I say! Don't forget, I uploaded those 1024 templates last year (easy enough to resize the originals, add a new layer for the stripes, 'add noise" and fade the noise ~ 25% -- that's what I did with the PF skin. Makes it look a little dirtier, even without adding a 'dirt' layer)

 

Skinning tricks are cool!!

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[+Johan217 5]

Johan: you can try editing the airfiled inis; it's something I didn't want to mess with, given the fact that the 'parked planes' will no doubt be part of the forthcoming patches for the rest of the series.

 

As to names (like Lod for isntance), I just got lazy and didn't want to mess with it!!

OK, I'll hold off editing the airfield.inis, there's still enough to do :)

Also, I'll probably change some airfields into something else, because there are way too many of them for 1956. I have an idea to use static infantry/artillery positions for this. TetTet's SteelTiger campaign for WOV uses these and it works quite well. This way you'll be flying semi-CAS missions to strike enemy troop concentrations in the Sinai... or that's the theory at least.

 

About the anachronisms, I'll also replace Dimona Nuclear Plant by a village because in 1956 the place was merely a few huts in the desert :)

[Wrench 9,471]

You can just change the "ActiveYear=" for Dimona to when ever it was built. You'll notice I did that for a LOT of the duplicate airfields (moved them upwards to 1999, so they don't show). I'd actually given some thought to removing a lot of the extra airfields completly, but didn't want to renumber the entire ini again. Hence, the active year changes.

 

Once the year is changed, the reactor will disappear. If you're flying over it with the HUDDebug on, it will still call out the target area, it'll just be empty. You can always throw a few buliding in the general vicinity, to have something to look at

 

Wrench

kevn stein

[+LloydNB 212]

The checks and nose on the MiG-17 are a layer with the opacity turned to 85%. I'll just tweek it up a bit.

 

How did you do the Israeli insignia on the Wessex? I keep getting a distorted decal doing the Iraqi version and the Jordanian Whirlwind. We'll need a RN Whirlwind as well for Suez.

 

LloydNB

[Wrench 9,471]

The easy way ... I painted it on!!!

 

Didn't Gramps do a RN skin for S-51??? Or maybe it was Ozisse??

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[Wrench 9,471]

Johan: you'll find a usable 'fire base' in the SoCal and ASW maps. They're orientated N/S, so might need a little tweeking. I should have some with E/W sitting in the Iran/Irag upgrades.

 

Artillery, is of course, readily avaialble... don't forget there's the M-7 Priest WW2 SPG, as used by the IDF in 67 (well, it'll work anyway as an SPG)

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[+LloydNB 212]

How about a theatre appropriate mainscreen. I originally did this for SFP1.

 

LloydNB

[+Dave 2,318]

It makes me want to pee. j/k

[+LloydNB 212]

An EAF F-16C Blk32.

 

LloydNB

[+Dave 2,318]

[+Stary 2,426]

How about a theatre appropriate mainscreen. I originally did this for SFP1.

 

LloydNB

 

Hey that's nice!