What is wrong with the USAF?

[+Dave 2,322]

Good point Jug but Sparky's and I's point is that the USAF is a hollow shell of what it once was. Sitting here in the command post I am privy to a lot of information. Some of it makes you want to puke. Back when I first came in, people were bending over backwards to help you out. Now they say, well if you can't do this or that, too bad, we can dishcarge you if you want. Sorry people weren't saying that 15 years ago. I think I have legitmate complaint, being away from your family over 2 years I think is pushing it. Things just aren't the same. I used to have pride in what I do but now I am just tired, because anything you do in the USAF anymore, is full of politics. You can't turn a wrench without someone getting in your face spouting of the political ramifications of what you are doing. The USAF has moved from doing your job, to what else do you do BUT your job. And its a shame.

[Guest USNadpc]

eraser_tr wrote

It's not the military or government, it's all modern society. The bean counters and paper pushers take over from the visionaries and founders and everything goes to hell. It's the same for any institution, government, military, private institutions, everything.

 

They put their budgets and statistic reports ahead of the people and the organization's purpose.

 

 

Could not have been said any better.

 

It's happening in the private sector as well. I don't know if this is true or not but my brother said that he saw a news clip on CNN that said that some airlines are sending their A/C to El Salvador for maintenance because it's cheaper! AND that the mechanics don't have to be licensed, only the person signing off on the repair needs certification.

 

I'm glad I only did one stint in the Navy. Had a great time and got out before the "beanies" took over.

 

BTW, I had a buddy in my squadron that was very good at what he did (AMH) but he got an OTH for alcoholism. He never showed up drunk on duty and was good at what he did. We still keep in touch and I remember when he called me all pissed off about the Sub Commander that emergency surfaced and hit that Japanese boat, killing 9 people and he got an honourable discharge for it. Sam was really pissed off about that. Sam got a DUI and refused treatment so they kicked him out and he got an OTH.

 

USNadpc

Edited April 15, 2008 by USNadpc

[+Jarhead1 27]

In the Corps I have seen people make a minor mistake and get kicked out with OTH or Dishonerable but on the same note I have seen people that pop for drugs and have MULTIPLE duis get to renenlist or finish their time with benefits and a honorable discharge. Thats how political every branch is nowadays.

[+ST0RM 145]

Jug's reply was spot on. 'Nuff said.

 

Storm

[triplethr3at 0]

I thought this shot would be apropriate for the discusion.

[Viper6 3]

I thought this shot would be apropriate for the discusion.

I grew up with the USAF born on Vandenburg AFB and I feel things have changed so much it has come to this. on a sad note my brother was in the AF (Davis Monthan) and he took his own life after DS because he could not get help for depression some desk flyer felt he was not in need of help.

[krgf15 1]

Ive only been in for 10 years, and it has changed alot. From a crew chief standpoint, I can definately tell you that it is mission first, not family. Nobody forced us to join. We all volunteered. On the other hand, it would be nice if there was more family consideration, but I think my wife has learned to deal with lots of 12's.

 

On the third hand, I'm not doing 18 month long tours carrying M-16's and such. Bless the Army and Marine guys for doing that, but I would say ive got it pretty good. I just hope my jet puts the bombs on target to help those guys out.

[i90807065 0]

I gotta say...after reading these, im rethinking joining the USAF...I may do it instead of USArmy or USMC though (too close for comfort in my opinion and bless those who can do it)

 

P.S. Im not trying to say anything negative about anything, just my opinion

[Viper6 3]

Ground pounding is NOT for every one and us that did do it really thank those that put the fast movers in the air and keep them flyin the crap that we put up with is FAR out weighed by the friends and experiences we meet and have along the way!

[+drdoyo 2]

I am sorry if I sound bitter but I am. I was born on a USAF base, I have lived, eat, breathed and s**t USAF my entire life. I have 4 different career fields in the USAF. All I know is USAF and it had to come down to this. Damn shame if you ask me.

 

On the good note though, I will be with my family again in about a month. For good. Military is temporary, family is forever.

 

I totally agree with everything you said Dave!! I left for the same reasons. Though I left the ANG, and I hope the AFR is better for you.

 

The trouble is, I'm seeing all of the same things in the corporate world now myself. The doing more with less, and fewer people. Parts.....good luck. We have two aircraft they can't evn complete inspctions on because they can't get the parts for them. Family doesn't exist. Rght now all we have at work is our days scheduled off. Forget about what time you were supposed to get off work today, it isn't happening. I havn't flown my scheduled trip as awarded for two months now. The (i like to call it mismanagement) seems to run from the highest political position on down to the lowest buisness manager. While the USAF isn't what it was when I enlisted in 1987, neither is the US of A. It's really sad IMO.

 

I just wish that I'd seen it in time to save MY marriage, instead of my marriage, and not being allowed to fly being the reason I left the military.

Edited April 18, 2008 by drdoyo

[+Dave 2,322]

Ive only been in for 10 years, and it has changed alot. From a crew chief standpoint, I can definately tell you that it is mission first, not family. Nobody forced us to join. We all volunteered. On the other hand, it would be nice if there was more family consideration, but I think my wife has learned to deal with lots of 12's.

 

I am so sick of people using that as some sort of excuse to why we should be treated a certain way. Had I only been a away from my family a few months and I was whining, I can see someone telling me to shove off. But after 2 1/2 years of being apart, then enough is enough. So that "Nobody forced us to join. We all volunteered" is 100% total BS. There comes a time when you have given, given and given when the military should reciprocate and help the member out. It helps with retention, it helps build moral, it keeps you focused on your job. So taking care of families is and should be a priority in the military.

[Guest Bounder]

I have served off and on from 1972 to present ,and when ever I got fed up ,or ready to choke an O-6 or above I just left ,but I letf clean,and when I got over what ever it was I just reenlisted. But I will admit one of the reasone I left back in 93 was they wanted me to babysit enlisted entire families. That was a bit much, even now I have to be a readily accessible advisory element to any enlisted in the unit. But in the Army now matter what they will deploy thats the job. unless thery can show heart ship conditions then they can get a heart ship discharge.

[Russkie Raider 0]

Wow, this is really makin' me rethink joining up.

 

Could get a commercial pilot's lisence but the current airline situation is ridiculous too.

 

I'm probably just gonna end up barricading my house for the coming s**t storm.

 

It's a shame...

[sparkomatic 7]

I concur, the "you volunteered" is like some other very poor arguments that lead to heated debates...and dont forget, one cannot simply leave either, we all are under contract of some sort whether enlistment of ADSC that bars simply "walking away"

 

But think about it...if the people that you want to defend your freedom leave, then who will watch the wire? People that cant get jobs? No frakkin' thanks...

 

It is not that difficult to fix either, they have changed so many things, I mean, dont see any B-17 or P-36 on the ramp, eh? We can make it better, period. Just that the people that have the power do not care since it does not affect them.

 

Look at some of our current processes, trimmed to bones due to losing 62,000 airmen in 4 years (during a war nonetheless)...it has NO impact on the 4-stars because annoying things like personnel and finance is handled completely different for them.

 

Fiefdom is the word I believe...

[Guest Bounder]

its a year maybe 18 months at lest its not 4-4.5 years away like in WW2

I just finished 3 years on over seas orders but it was at my request to free up another. For about the next year it seems will be Med hold.

[firehawkordy 34]

Easy there killer, I may not be happy with the USAF, but its still my branch of service. 230 years of service means very little to me in the grand scheme of things of getting the mission done.

 

I understand your feelings toward your branch of service and I meant no disrespect, at least towards you. What ever branch a person serves in becomes an extension of family, no mater what, and I forgot that. I do mean what I said about the A-10 guys however, the ones we worked with were pros. I still have one of the spent 30mm shell cases that their Ammo Troops gave us as souvenirs.

 

My question to you is this...

Can you stick it out to your full 20 without losing your mind or are you going as soon as you can? I'd hate to see you or anyone for that matter lose benefits that they worked so hard to enjoy. Politicians come and go, good leaders and trainers are rare and valuable assets and remembered far beyond their tenure.

 

As my late father would tell me when I'd get fed up with the bull, " Don't let the bastards get you down."

[Guest Bounder]

see my main point is we now know how long we will be deployed it not like WW2, or even Desert Storm were you dont know when your returning to the states and loved ones. The fighters of the "Greatest Generation" had know idea when they were coming home. There were only three ways home die.get wounded or war's end.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Bounder

[+Dave 2,322]

My question to you is this...

Can you stick it out to your full 20 without losing your mind or are you going as soon as you can? I'd hate to see you or anyone for that matter lose benefits that they worked so hard to enjoy.

 

I have 17 days left, I get off active Duty 12 May and the 13th I am in the active AF Reserve. It's funny people say "Can't you stick out for until 20? That's only 3 1/2 years." Then I ask them if they have been away from their family for the last 2 1/2 years. Of course they say no, or they say they have never been away from them that long. Ok say I stick it out for another 3 1/2 years, now its 5 years I haven't been with my family. At what cost? Kids that barely know their father? A wife I have to get to know all over again and it may or may not work out? Not worth it. I will get benefits from the USAFR, I will still get a retirement. I also get benefits from my wife being active duty, and finally I am home with my family. I win all around.

[special-ed 0]

as a former USAF blue suiter i to say to everyone out there who is or was a military man or women "thank you for your service to our country" as a famous radio announcer would say. by joining the service of our choice,we did what we thought was right at the time for us and usafmtl you gotta do what you gotta do to make it right for yourself it's a dang shame, i entered the USAF in 1976 and was trained by the the former Vietnam dudes, these guys, the SEA stories they tell were a hoot and shall always hold a special place in my heart, they taught me to maintain the aircraft as though i was going to fly in it and if all possible launch the bird to meet its TOT,now that seems to matter not anymore from what i read and hear in the print and talking heads news, i remember the phrase "family comes first" during my 9.5 years, oh i didn't think so then, not after seeing the afmpc send 15 plus year tech sgts to remotes like Korea or other marriage breaker places and it can't be any different now that we go play in the sand box. i got out after 9.5 years because the USAF ended my cushy indoor simulator maintenance job, giving first termer's the choice to go to other career fields like Space Command (that always makes me laugh) us old farts were told our new assignment is going back to our old afsc's, mine was hydraulics and i didn't want to work on the refueling booms of tankers nor be in the 47 section of a buff on a nice sunny summer day @ castle afb, my brother, stacking SAC BBs, got out after 17 years in the late 1990s only because the system turned him into a babysitter and then i go to tinker air force base in 1998 to put a sim mod in for the FTD AWACS maintenance trainers and see these pieces of paper posted on the wall throughout the duty areas called AFIs, so i ask an airmen what's up and I'm told there are no more air force regulations AFRs there are air force instructions AFIs, i quietly said to myself oh my god the USAF has gone soft and squishy on the inside as well as the out

Edited April 19, 2008 by special-ed

[krgf15 1]

You guys seemed to miss the whole "From a crew Chief Standpoint" part of my comment. We only deploy as long as the jets can stay. And they can only stay a few months before they eat up phase and PDM hours. We dont have to deal with the 6 month to a year deployments like other people. I aint knockin your decision, thats your decision. But if you want to tear up what I said without paying attention to the whole thing, go right ahead.

[+Dave 2,322]

KrgF15

 

I wasn't poking at you, I was talking about the statement in general. I have heard too many people use that before without walking a mile in someone else's shoe's

[+Dave 2,322]

The USAF as an institution is good. It's just suffering from a lack of good leaders. I have my beef with a few people more than I do with the USAF as a whole. However I am not going to sugar coat it either. A lot more could be done.

[krgf15 1]

it would be 10 times better if they would close mountain home

[sparkomatic 7]

- personally I love how we get treated like children as well...I mean the "decency restrictions" posted against AAFES printed material...and now some Congress-dude wants to ban on base gambling because "it destroys families"...really? So it is all perfectly fine to have Vegas and Atlantic City and "normal citizens" can destroy their own families all they choose but the military needs to be told what is "decent" to read and protected from gambling? Nice!

 

- point being that no one enters the Service stupid to the fact there will be sacrifices...there will be time away and danger undertaken...copy...but there is a very great difference between self-generated issues and challenges beyond one's control...a leader's responsibility to mitigate the "poop" in order to allow the front line to focus on the front line...

 

- let's address the CSUSAF and how he claimed that the 'tanker deal" was his number one priority on a number of occasions...yet he claimed to not have had any influence or knowledge of the process when Boeing won originally and the choice was then the center of great controversy...I am not him obviously but if I go on public record as something being my top priority, bet high that I have at least a modicum of understanding on what is going on with it.

 

- that is not the only one either, let's address CSAR-X...same song, different verse...decision crushed by the GAO...nasty questions raised during testimony...again, Moseley "didnt know"...that had been his Number 2 priority...well if he was ignorant to his #1 and #2 priorities...what was he doing? Choosing the next Dress Blues? Wondering what to re-name AFI's? Figuring out how to re-organize the MAJCOMs?

 

He is McPeak reborn, period...and we will be better when he is hopefully forced into the abyss

 

But not all issues can be traced to him, certainly...it is a culture of vultures...and it needs refinement...it could be so much better, if senior leaders just followed what they preach/expect...it is a time of transition and re-constitution and great competition with the sister Services for money, no doubt and is time indeed for great leadership

 

Yes, I volunteered...

[+Jug 99]

The USAF as an institution is good. It's just suffering from a lack of good leaders. I have my beef with a few people more than I do with the USAF as a whole. However I am not going to sugar coat it either. A lot more could be done.

 

I will say again, congratulations and thank you to all that serve. Can't speak for all of the VietNam era military, I can only speak for myself. Somewhere along the way I decided that what was broken in the military was my personal responsibility to fix. I decided that if I am going to do a job, I was going to do it right and following VietNam, there was much broken in the military. I decided that the only way to fix things was to roll up your sleeves and work from the inside. Do the job right regardless of the circumstance, and be the professional our nation expects us to be. I spent twenty years attempting to do just that along with many other dedicated 'lifers' in all services. Even though the best you could say was that it was a tiny part, I like to think the results of my efforts showed up at Desert Storm. USAFMTL put it well when he said most of his 'beefs' were with people, not the institution. Well and professionally said. The military is notorious (all services) for screwing personnel issues up by the numbers. USAFMTL's situation is a perfect example. I request that you keep in mind that the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines who run toward the fight, leave behind those in uniform who would rather not. It is the former crowd that wins our nation's conflicts and it is the latter crowd which seems to work hard to run off the former when the fight's done. No medals for REMFs, just a title. As I have said before, nobody writes war stories about REMFs (Rear Echelon Mother Truckers). To those who are considering some service time, I encourage you. However, service will never be without sacrifices. Fixing what is not right takes dedication, duration, determination, and courage and can only be accomplished from the inside. Our nation's security is only achieved by those who accept the full spectrum of what that entails.

 

I have never encountered the "espirit de corps" and comradeship of military service in any other career. It is truely unique!

 

Sound like a recruiter, don't I?