Stick 773 Posted June 5, 2008 I think if the Lavi's production wasnt so abruptly terminated, Israel could have been well on her way to building her own 5th Gen fighter. If the veracity of claims like political pressure from the U.S so that its arms exports werent threatened, can be proven, then I dont understand why the Americans expect any less then having their designs being stolen by the lowest bidder. High-handedness begets low-handedness. If a bully punches you in the face, you kick him in the balls, or you steal his girl if his balls are made of steel. 'One hand giveth and the other taketh away' attitude doesnt work in business. Or wasnt America paying attention to the lessons of Al Capone, and Frank Lucas. He who enforces a monoploly will effectively swallow a time-bomb. It is high time we made friends, or at least recognize our real friends before we shove a boot up their arse, in sick jest or a mere show of might. Haven't we warred enough? Havent we killed enough people in the name of God alone knows who remembers what? The clear and present danger of terrorism is the example of the degeneration of mankind, the chicanery we indulge in. In fact,it is the bastard spawned of atrociously selfish and stupid politics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted June 5, 2008 Israel doesn't have the money to develop their own 5th gen fighter. No one does, really. I can understand the attitude of wanting Israel to buy US stuff, though. I mean, when you're handing out billions in aid, you sort of expect them to use that money right back, you know? Now if Israel simply paid outright for everything they had, I would look at it differently. Then it would be a case of do whatever is best for you, outright. That's why I don't believe the UK or Oz or India should be pressured into buying US stuff. If they want it, fine, but they can go elsewhere too. After all, it's not like we're giving them anything for us to expect that in return. Want to buy Euro stuff? Russian? Whatever, your prerogative! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mannie 21 Posted June 6, 2008 (edited) Israel doesn't have the money to develop their own 5th gen fighter. No one does, really.I can understand the attitude of wanting Israel to buy US stuff, though. I mean, when you're handing out billions in aid, you sort of expect them to use that money right back, you know? Now if Israel simply paid outright for everything they had, I would look at it differently. Then it would be a case of do whatever is best for you, outright. That's why I don't believe the UK or Oz or India should be pressured into buying US stuff. If they want it, fine, but they can go elsewhere too. After all, it's not like we're giving them anything for us to expect that in return. Want to buy Euro stuff? Russian? Whatever, your prerogative! Jedi Master, the force is with you. I couldn't have said it any better. (not even in hebrew.) Israel doesn't have the resources to develop and produce platforms. we are way to small. So we concentrate on developing and producing sub systems like avionics ECM systems and armaments. That is the little that we can do, and we do it best. (Python 5) Our motto is "do the best that you can with what you've got" and we didn't always have the best, but we did win our wars with it. I, for one am full of gratitude for the US for there supporting us. The land of the free and the home of the brave, may you long live and prosper. Edited June 6, 2008 by Mannie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted June 6, 2008 What can I say? Both our countries hold special meaning for the phrase "never again." :pioneer: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atreides 144 Posted June 7, 2008 Not to detract too much from the topic of discussion, but as per the JP post Israel has submitted a formal request for the F-35 and not the F-22. Linky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mannie 21 Posted June 7, 2008 (edited) Not to detract too much from the topic of discussion, but as per the JP post Israel has submitted a formal request for the F-35 and not the F-22. Linky Read this. Now can you see why I'm confused? http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/1...22+jets+from+US http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull Edited June 7, 2008 by Mannie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BUFF 8 Posted June 7, 2008 I know that as of 2002, Rolls Royce was still shipping completed engines to China, not just parts. They may have tranistioned to shipping kits since then. Most nations that "license manufacture" US, UK, or other Western hardware actually produce very few of the components that go into that aircraft or engine. Their "license" to manufacture is usually just a "license" to assemble. well, they are building their own version of the Russian engines for their Flankers - heck, they've even reverse engineered the Flanker so that they no longer buy kits from Russia! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atreides 144 Posted June 7, 2008 (edited) well, they are building their own version of the Russian engines for their Flankers - heck, they've even reverse engineered the Flanker so that they no longer buy kits from Russia! And, did you knw that Russia is actually sueing China for unlicensed maunfacturing of the SU ? EDIT:- Actually "MAYBE" sueing. Link. Edited June 7, 2008 by Atreides Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eraser_tr 29 Posted June 7, 2008 I don't think countries can sue each other. It'd have to be Sukhoi sueing Chengdu or whoever is producing the J-11. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atreides 144 Posted June 8, 2008 I don't think countries can sue each other. It'd have to be Sukhoi sueing Chengdu or whoever is producing the J-11. Oops, yeah that's what I meant Sukhoi is going after the offending company. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
censored 0 Posted June 8, 2008 well, they are building their own version of the Russian engines for their Flankers - heck, they've even reverse engineered the Flanker so that they no longer buy kits from Russia! The engine that the Chinese developed for their Flanker knock-off was not a duplicate of the Russian AL-31F that powers the Flanker. It was a new engine, that used the commercial CFM-56 core as its starting point. All accounts that I have seen suggest that the Chinese engine (the WS-10A) is underpowered compared to the Russian alternative. Reverse engineering a jet engine is far more difficult than reverse engineering the airframe. The same can be said for designing a new engine from scratch. Even starting from a widely available and well known core such as that provided by the CFM-56, the Chinese would have had difficulty matching the extremely tight tolerances, and specialized material processing that goes into that engine. Engine technology, and not airframe technology, remains China's achille's heal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Jug 99 Posted June 8, 2008 The engine that the Chinese developed for their Flanker knock-off was not a duplicate of the Russian AL-31F that powers the Flanker. It was a new engine, that used the commercial CFM-56 core as its starting point. All accounts that I have seen suggest that the Chinese engine (the WS-10A) is underpowered compared to the Russian alternative. Reverse engineering a jet engine is far more difficult than reverse engineering the airframe. The same can be said for designing a new engine from scratch. Even starting from a widely available and well known core such as that provided by the CFM-56, the Chinese would have had difficulty matching the extremely tight tolerances, and specialized material processing that goes into that engine. Engine technology, and not airframe technology, remains China's achille's heal. Good to know that they put their pants on just like everyone else, censored, one leg at a time. They're good, but not supermen. After all they are all that is left of communist horde! Who knows when the next Peoples Revolt (aka 1968) will sweep the country again and they will shoot all of their smart people to thin out the ranks one more time! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Syrinx 13 Posted June 8, 2008 Good to know that they put their pants on just like everyone else, censored, one leg at a time. They're good, but not supermen. After all they are all that is left of communist horde! Who knows when the next Peoples Revolt (aka 1968) will sweep the country again and they will shoot all of their smart people to thin out the ranks one more time! That's the thing with communism...they are all equal but some are more equal than others. And the more-equal ones decide to have another purge...to get them all equal again...and the circle continues. Idiots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted June 9, 2008 That's because they're not REALLY communist, at least insofar as the book definitions went. They're totalitarian with a heavy socialist underpinning, but they're not communist. The major point of communism of course is that the workers want things to be communist, hence no purges would be necessary. I know they were license producing the J-11, so I guess the problem is they kept building them after the end of the agreement without making the necessary payments to Sukhoi? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eagleace 0 Posted June 18, 2008 The British alredy orderd f-35s but its just to keept he RAF up to date. Its not like war is right around the corner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MigBuster 2,884 Posted June 18, 2008 The British alredy orderd f-35s but its just to keept he RAF up to date. Its not like war is right around the corner Well you never know when the next war will be - doesnt it normally happen when you think there isnt one round the corner? For the record we are currently at war in two conflicts (Iraq and Afganistan) with air support being used every day. The F-35s are needed to plug a massive gap left by the Sea Harriers that are now retired (and no the GR7/9s cannot replace the SHARs A-A capability) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
