About Damn Time...

[+Jug 99]

Im a reservist who has been deployed twice to Iraq for a total of 26 months and I know that when fear is involved people make alot of mistakes. Now I dont know the inner workings of this case and Im pretty sure nobody here does either so I dont have opinion if someones guilty or not. If the tribunal found the defendents are not guilty then thats fine becuase they had their day in court. But what I do know is that when you have an enemy that is indegionous like the majority of insurgents in Iraq. They have the ability to blend in with the local civilain population that threat of incidents like this rise. The world is not black and white its gray. Are guys are capable of horrible stuff to. So when this story first came out I didnt know if the Marines were guilty or of if it was Time just trying sell more magazines. There alot of stuff from my deployments that I will take with me to the grave. Things that Im not proud of. This post is not going to make very popular with alot you and thats fine. But what I do know that if you want to be the "good guys" then you have to take the high road. If military deemed it necessary to hold a court martial hearing than the most have been something there. About the partisan stuff, John Murtha might be a crook but he did spend 38 years in the Marines so saying that he thought that they were guilty couldnt have been easy for him. Im glad that some Marines were not found guilty. However I think the Majority have been given immunity so it seems there might be some convictions on the way. The first thing that I swore to defend when I raised my right hand was the Constitution and thats what binds us to the domestic and the international laws that we have agreed to adhere to. The right thing to do is hardly ever the easy thing to do.

 

Well said, herman01!

[+Typhoid 231]

Im a reservist who has been deployed twice to Iraq for a total of 26 months and I know that when fear is involved people make alot of mistakes. Now I dont know the inner workings of this case and Im pretty sure nobody here does either so I dont have opinion if someones guilty or not. If the tribunal found the defendents are not guilty then thats fine becuase they had their day in court. But what I do know is that when you have an enemy that is indegionous like the majority of insurgents in Iraq. They have the ability to blend in with the local civilain population that threat of incidents like this rise. The world is not black and white its gray. Are guys are capable of horrible stuff to. So when this story first came out I didnt know if the Marines were guilty or of if it was Time just trying sell more magazines. There alot of stuff from my deployments that I will take with me to the grave. Things that Im not proud of. This post is not going to make very popular with alot you and thats fine. But what I do know that if you want to be the "good guys" then you have to take the high road. If military deemed it necessary to hold a court martial hearing than the most have been something there. About the partisan stuff, John Murtha might be a crook but he did spend 38 years in the Marines so saying that he thought that they were guilty couldnt have been easy for him. Im glad that some Marines were not found guilty. However I think the Majority have been given immunity so it seems there might be some convictions on the way. The first thing that I swore to defend when I raised my right hand was the Constitution and thats what binds us to the domestic and the international laws that we have agreed to adhere to. The right thing to do is hardly ever the easy thing to do.

 

herman, overall - well said.

 

I differ on a key point where you consider Murtha a good Marine of 38 years. He was a reservist for most of that so while your statement is true, it is somewhat overstated in that most of that has been as a Congressman without regular drill.

 

My issue with him is that, absent any court of inquiry, he took the political stage and pronounced them guilty of murder "in cold blood". As a Marine Reserve Colonel, he should know better.

 

I will also point out that my comment about Congressmen and Senators further up did not focus on any particular one, though Murtha certainly in my opinion is among those.

 

I will also tell you that my active duty Marine son and his brothers in arms were all very much angered by Murtha's comments condemning men without benefit of even the courtesy and legal requirement of a pre-trial inquiry. The pronouncement of verdict and sentence without trial is not one of those values that we took an oath to uphold. Quite the contrary.

 

It seems that only we are held to any standard. I can live with upholding standards of conduct that others are not held to, I do and have. Murtha and his cronies failed that crucial test of honor and integrity, and have utterly failed to live up to their oaths.

 

out

[herman01 0]

Well Murtha is Keystone to the Defense establishment for the past 20 years so I thought he might of been privy to some inside information. He had a pretty solid Marine career starting out as a drill instructor. Going from green to gold, and then later steping up and volunteering for Vietnam. Your right about him having a big trap but You know how politicians are with cameras in their faces and they are just people. I think hes a crook from all of his earmarking and invlovment with ABSCAM scandal. Still though I dont think it was easy for former Marine like him say something like that without knowing something. We all know how hardcore Marines are, and how dedicated to Corp they remain even after being out for years. I think if anyone gets convicted it looks to be higher enlisted and officers. I think the majority of lower enlisted have been granted immunity.

 

column5- John Glenn too with Keating Savings and Loan scandal.

Edited June 6, 2008 by herman01

[Ruggbutt 45]

First off, the congressmen/women should send a letter of apology for politicizing this case. These mens' lives could have been ruined and they still might be. And that's not to say what a toll this has taken on morale which could be directly related to future deaths amongst Marines. Politicians should be allowed two terms, period. I'm sick and tired of our soldiers not being able to prosecute a war the way it should be. Don't shoot at insurgents that run into mosques. Don't JDAM a bunch of known terrorists attending a funeral for one of their dead buddies. It makes me sick that the weenies on capitol hill think they know better than the guys living the experience every day.

 

Power and politics corrupt. Look what it did to Randy Cunningham.

To be fair, I know two pilots (retired) that flew with him. They said he was an @sshole when he was military. Had very few friends cuz he was so abrasive. It doesn't surprise me that he stole that money. At least he's paying for it now.

[sparkomatic 7]

Soon there will be more solicitors (lawyers) on the battlefield than medics.

 

War is hell. Our armed forces are there to do a job. Let 'em get on with it. They are laying their bodies on the line every day on active deployment.

 

What they need is support, respect and thanks.

 

This kind of thing quite frankly makes me puke.

 

I'll say no more 'cos this riles the **** out of me.

 

 

 

Funny you should mention that...in every AOC there is a detachment of lawyers in the GAT (people responsible for choosing targets and initial planning of air ops)...they wield considerable influence for the rest of us

[sparkomatic 7]

Ever read the book "Generation Kill"...thought it would be a Corps-basher, dude actually became enamored with his Marines (as anyone with a brain does, spent 6 months out at al Taqaddum, Marines are awesome)

 

This is a challenging time, no doubt, but together we will get through it

[+Jarhead1 27]

We all got our problems and we are all taking hits from the media and everyone else. If all branches stick togethor like we have been doing we can work through this like u said Sparky. Semper Fi!!

[Guest pfunkmusik]

What the armed forces don't hear enough of are the millions who stand behind them and their actions every day.

 

I can go to sleep tonight because people are willing to stand on that fence and say, "Not tonight. No one's gonna come after you as long as I'm here."

 

pfunk

[+Typhoid 231]

"Power and politics corrupt. Look what it did to Randy Cunningham.

 

To be fair, I know two pilots (retired) that flew with him. They said he was an @sshole when he was military. "

 

yea. I knew him too. That's an accurate assessment of his lack of personality.

 

Short analysis - good stick and a damn good, ace pilot in a tough situation, a legitimate war hero. But lacking in personal character.

[WarlordATF 1]

I also hate how the media condemns our troops before the facts come out. These Men and Women risk there life everyday and the media attacks them anytime they can.My Stepdad was a Marine in Vietnam and just from the storys he told me, i am glad he isn't alive to see this crap. My biggest concern is for the Troops when they come home, will they be treated as the Heros they really are or will the media try to make monsters of them?

 

The Military has really gotten the nasty end of the stick in the media and there opinion is not what most people on the street actually think. I think the Military has done an amazing job and its a real credit to there skills that we have not lost more live over there. The loss of one is too many, but on D-Day alone we lost over 10,000. We should all be thankful we are not in a war like that again.

[JediMaster 451]

I never understood the demonizing of the troops during Vietnam...when most of them were drafted and didn't choose to be there in the first place! Were these people expecting draftees to refuse to serve in the hundreds of thousands and go to jail instead? Did choosing to serve instead of going to jail make them an automatic criminal??

 

At least people know you don't blame the hand for the choices the brain makes now. Not to say there aren't soldiers out there who have stepped out of line, that's a fact of life that's been around for millennia, but I think the US has the smallest number percentage wise now of any previous time in its history. It used to be that things could be easily covered up and no one would know, but not anymore.

[+Dave 2,322]

To be fair, I know two pilots (retired) that flew with him. They said he was an @sshole when he was military. Had very few friends cuz he was so abrasive. It doesn't surprise me that he stole that money. At least he's paying for it now.

 

You are like the 3rd person who has told me the same thing in the last few months when visiting the AF museum. One is a retired fighter jock who flew with him in the AF exchange program. He straight up told me he was a f***in' arrogant prick and could not stand to even be in the same room with him.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

...but I think the US has the smallest number percentage wise now of any previous time in its history. It used to be that things could be easily covered up and no one would know, but not anymore.

 

Yeah, but with easy access to technology comes the free flow of information... Thing is, not to get political, forget about the whys and whos for a moment. This current war wasn't popular from the get go. The leaders of the US, being the biggest kid on the block, were pushing it though, despite the resistance. All eyes were on you guys at the time, Afghanistan was going on, Sept 11 was still pretty fresh, I'm certainly not arguing about justification here, but lots of people/groups with varying agendas were making it their full time job in watching you guys like hawks, waiting to slam you for any slip ups and to blow even the tiny stuff out of proportion.

 

I'm with you Warlord, Jedi, I don't get the demonising either. I currently have 'friends' (the more accurate term would be douche bag acquaintances) who're currently ostracizing a bud of ours because of his involvement in Iraq. And his crime? Aircraft mechanic. I like to think of myself as left leaning but am ashamed to find the actions of some (note, some) of the people who find themselves on my side of the fence to be BS. When I suggested their actions were as justified as the stories I've heard of Nashos coming back from Vietnam being pelted feces at the airport, I was subsequently snobbed too. Oh well, screw them, they won't be missed.

[sparkomatic 7]

- "he was a f***in' arrogant prick and could not stand to even be in the same room with him"

 

- it is not easy being a living legend I suppose. funny thing about us is that we expect people that have accomplished things the rest of us have read about to be cool...kind of like the movies, heroes are always the best people...reality is of course divergent from that course...have known plenty of people that when the impossible needs done, you want him there, then you wish you could stick them beside the fire extinguisher and forget them until the next fire.

 

Am not excusing him or his actions, but really, just because people know his name does NOT equal cool dude.

 

then again I knew DeBellevue and he was very cool, despite the American Fighter Pilot Association refusing to recognize him (not that it matters, how many even heard of the AFPA? Exactly) And he had more confirmed kills than anybody.

 

And, on a similar point, look at Bill Gates, he is the definition of the American Dream...came from insignificance, built an Empire and became the richest dude in the world and literally a household name...and how many people hate that guy? Welcome to the paradox of Americana...we treasure the idea of the underdog that beats all odds to emerge the very best, then spend the rest of the time hurling arrows instead of flowers at the very same dog

 

By the way, in case you didnt know, Chuck Yeager was/is a total arrogant SOB as well...just ask.

 

cheers

[FastCargo 412]

By the way, in case you didnt know, Chuck Yeager was/is a total arrogant SOB as well...just ask.

 

Yep...confirmed from first hand knowledge.

 

I've noticed a lot of times it seems to have strong association with the kind of career the person has had too.

 

For instance, in general terms, I've noticed the guys you want to hang out with were the A-10 guys, the guys who were most likely to be asses were the F-15 guys, with the F-16 guys somewhere in between.

 

Note I say in general. I know a lot of F-15 guys who are great to drink beer with and hang around...but if you want the guy who's the 'gnats-ass' numbers/standards guy, you normally went with the Eagle dude...which makes it a pain when the debrief takes twice as long as the flight. Verses your 'big picture' Hog guy who debriefs you in the jet so he can beat the throng to the bar.

 

I jest of course.

 

Mostly.

 

FastCargo

[serverandenforcer 33]

The simple answer to why people hate those who are able to adapt and overcome is simply jealousy. They wish they were them, and the mere fact that they're not is like nails on a chalkboard. While that person is still alive, still read about through history books, it is a constant reminder that they will never be able to achieve what they have.... and mainly because they're too lazy to be like that person or better. Folks, this is the era of hate, the ultimate climax in human civilization. We hate our heroes, we hate our villians, we hate the succesfull, we hate the failures, we hate the liberated and those who are condemened, we hate those who try and those who give up, we hate life, and most importantly, we hate ourselves for everything that we are, wish we were, and never could be. It won't change, it won't get better. Infact, it will only get worse. This is it. Embrace the suck.

Edited June 11, 2008 by serverandenforcer

[+Dave 2,322]

then again I knew DeBellevue and he was very cool, despite the American Fighter Pilot Association refusing to recognize him (not that it matters, how many even heard of the AFPA? Exactly) And he had more confirmed kills than anybody.

 

By the way, in case you didnt know, Chuck Yeager was/is a total arrogant SOB as well...just ask.

 

When I was a TI and did the color guard at DeBellevue's retirement. He is very cool. Yeah the AFPA did him wrong.

 

True story and if I am lying I'm dying. I got Gen Yeagers phone number about 9 years ago and called him. Yep I actually called him. Talked to him for over 2 hours. He was was really cool. But I have seen him at functions where yes he was being a prick.

[+Typhoid 231]

"The simple answer to why people hate those who are able to adapt and overcome is simply jealousy. "

 

BS!!!!

 

Randy Cunningham was an arrogant @$$hole who couldn't get along with people. He was, obviously, an outstanding pilot, a legitimate war hero and a combat ace. So one could argue that he had reason to be an arrogant @$$. Nevertheless, not being impressed by the personal charm of an @$$ is not simple jealousy. It is disgust with the personal qualities of the individual. Randy Cunningham thoroughly ticked off his squadron mates and the fighter/AEW community at large at Miramar when I was there. There were other combat pilots with combat kills who I knew who were absolutely good guys and widely respected.

 

There is a time and place to be an arrogant @$$. There are a lot more times and places to not be, particularly when flying with the other members of your squadron and air wing.

[column5 63]

This has kind of taken a strange turn. Being arrogant and/or an icehole doesn't automatically make one corrupt. Being arrogant probably does make one more prone to stepping over the line, as both Cunningham and Murtha have done. One is in jail though, the other not.

[JediMaster 451]

I think it needs to be looked at from the other direction--how many nice, cool people are corrupt? None! How can they be? Maybe they act like they're nice, cool people, but they obviously aren't.

 

The corrupt are a subset of the jerks. All corrupt people are jerks, but not all the jerks are corrupt. There are plenty of honest, hardworking jerks that have made this country as great as it is today, you just don't want to know them.

[+Typhoid 231]

I think it needs to be looked at from the other direction--how many nice, cool people are corrupt? None! How can they be? Maybe they act like they're nice, cool people, but they obviously aren't.

 

The corrupt are a subset of the jerks. All corrupt people are jerks, but not all the jerks are corrupt. There are plenty of honest, hardworking jerks that have made this country as great as it is today, you just don't want to know them.

 

concur. corrupt and icehole are not the same thing.

 

I was responding to the contention that anyone who thinks someone else is an icehole is merely jealous. Hardly the case.

 

for the record - I would trust Randy Cunningham to cover my six in the air. I wouldn't, and didn't, stand in the same bar with him back at the base.

[serverandenforcer 33]

Um.... I wasn't talking about Randy.... was actually responding about the issues with the media and the vietnam vets. Sorry for any confusion about that.