A2G Weapons & the AI

[Guest pfunkmusik]

Which classes of air-to-ground weapons can AI flights use?

 

I've heard somewhere they cannot fire guided missiles. Will they release guided bombs?

 

pfunk

[FastCargo 412]

I've heard the same thing (about guided missiles)...but I don't believe that's true.

 

I've seen my flight attack targets with Mavericks...and I know I have a screenshot of a SAM site getting destroyed by a Maverick that I sure as hell didn't guide...because I was dead already...

 

Guided bombs on the other hand...I have no clue.

 

FastCargo

[Silverbolt 104]

in a recently SEAD in WOI, my wing shoot and hit an SA-8 using a Shrike.

i've never seen it dropping LGBs or JDAMS....

[MigBuster 2,879]

I loaded up my Phantom flights with Paveways with laser designators only in WOV - not only were none of them dropped - every time the entire flight ignored the target waypoint and just kept flying in a straight line till they hit the map edge.

So went back to MK82s and no issues

 

not tried this in WOI yet

[column5 63]

Remember that LGBs need designation, and the only target that is designated by default is the primary. Since AI leave the primary for the player, that could lead to them not using their LGBs at all. Try flying a plane with a designator pod or a built-in designator--I don't know if it will work, but your chances will be a lot better.

[Icarus999 70]

Remember that LGBs need designation, and the only target that is designated by default is the primary. Since AI leave the primary for the player, that could lead to them not using their LGBs at all. Try flying a plane with a designator pod or a built-in designator--I don't know if it will work, but your chances will be a lot better.

 

 

 

Yes adding a designator to the planes flown by AI does work, but there still are some strange variables in play, many times the AI will ripple them as if they were dumb bombs, it also seems to depend on what else is going on in the mission, i have found that if you set up a mission that is pure air to ground with no enemy aircraft present that the AI aircraft behave much smarter and hit their targets for the most part.

 

You can place enemy aircraft far away from your strike so that they are no threat, then place friendly fighters to intercept them. The more aircraft you add in the air to air fight the more stupid the AI strike force will become, adding BVR mods makes the game work even harder with the air to air to the point that certain flights will just fly around and forget their mission. anti ship missions seem to be especially prone to this retardation factor, sometimes you can fix this with le missoneur by calling the mission Armed Recon or CAS instead of anti ship, then you select the anti ship load out with le missioneur.

 

Also your position in the game ( what flight you are in and where that flight is positioned) seems to make a big difference in the overall AI behavior - sam activity, AAA, and how your SEAD flights

behave. I can set up a huge mission and get totally different AI behavior depending on which aircraft within it I choose to fly. And if I get killed, that flight that was acting retarded flying around in circles often

starts targeting ground objects.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Icarus999

[+Spillone104 553]

The only thing that I'm sure is the use of guided missile from the AI (CGR,ASM,LGR,EOGR,ARM) but with an impressive rate of failure.

Particulary the CGR missile.

They launch the missiles but seems without a lock-on with the target.

[MigBuster 2,879]

Remember that LGBs need designation, and the only target that is designated by default is the primary. Since AI leave the primary for the player, that could lead to them not using their LGBs at all. Try flying a plane with a designator pod or a built-in designator--I don't know if it will work, but your chances will be a lot better.

 

This was actually AI only flights not mine - the weird thing is them ignoring all the waypoints and keep flying to the end of the Map

[kct 5]

Went on an SEAD flight, I'm on a F-4E-35-MC, and put up the AI on the F-4G (late). Directed it to attack those SAMs and it did with Mavericks.

 

As for bombs? They even missed the target with dumb bombs.

Edited September 1, 2008 by kct

[Canadair 16]

Who has read my posts during winter knows that this has been a thing on my mind

We are talking abour GuidedWeapons usage from AI flights not on player's formation.

 

In SFP, WOV WOE SP4, AI flight won't drop any guided bomb but overfly targets and go home. That the plane has or not a designato on board does not change anything. Period. In SEAD and CAS, isntead, they will employ LGB, EOGR, and ARMS with carying ability.

 

In WOI latest patch I experimented escorting a strike of AI F-16, after changing their loadout yo AGM-65D. No missile fired. the bug is still there

Having the Weapon pack installed I will try tomorrow LGB loadouts and attacks. But I am pessimistic

 

A shame, because the only real problem in the game , IMHO, in order to simulate modern operations is the inability of the AI to employ guided weapon. It is really the only real issue in simulating nowadays aerialcombat, (yes I know, Awacs is missing for example..but I don't feel, IMHO and to my personal tastes, the big problem. Seeing those LGBS and JDAMs under planes'wings makes me very sad..)

[column5 63]

I've seen Israeli A-4s on SEAD firing rockets and dropping bombs on targets frequently...have you tried a clean install?

[Canadair 16]

Self Quote.

 

 

In SFP, WOV WOE SP4, AI flight won't drop any guided bomb but overfly targets and go home. That the plane has or not a designato on board does not change anything. Period.

In SEAD and CAS, isntead, they will employ LGB, EOGR, and ARMS with varying ability.

 

In Woi patched, so far AGm-65D are not launched from AI strikeflights. I still have to experiment with LGBs

Edited September 2, 2008 by Canadair

[Roberto Skylord 2]

Which classes of air-to-ground weapons can AI flights use?

 

I've heard somewhere they cannot fire guided missiles. Will they release guided bombs?

 

pfunk

 

Hi pfunk

Well, guided missiles works fine. The AI F-4G on my campaign are better than I firing the HARM. And they are in another flight.

[Guest pfunkmusik]

Well, to be fair, ARMs have been around since the first release of SFP1. It would seem to me they should know how to use them, especially considering the default loadout for stock aircraft includes ARM's and that's without using Buny's Weps Pack.

 

It would seem the safest thing to do is use default loadouts. Much of those include unguided bombs.

 

Here's my thing: I really want to do a present-day scenario, but I've got two things working against me. First, an unsure track record of AI flights using 'smart' munitions. The other is the dearth of Red 5th generation aircraft.

 

Don't get me wrong. We should never rush genius. The aircraft I'd need are apparently in the works and they'll be done when the makers are darn good and ready to release them. I'm not kvetching about the wait. It'll keep. But the AI not being able to mimic modern-day weaponeering is the larger problem. You cannot, as my grandfather is fond of saying, get all your coons up one tree.

 

pfunk

[+malibu43 142]

...Here's my thing: I really want to do a present-day scenario, but I've got two things working against me. First, an unsure track record of AI flights using 'smart' munitions...

 

pfunk

 

*edit* - I should preface this by saying that I'm not ranting on the TW series. TK's done an outstanding job. This more or less just some comments regarding mine an others' efforts at expanding the scope of the game. - *end edit*

 

I agree with you on that one and expand on it quite a bit. I put a decent amount of effort into my Linebacker III campaign, which takes place in '95. It's a lot of fun to scream around in F-18C's and F-15E's, and single missions and the campaign can be fun, but the bottom line is that the essence of modern arial combat is rooted in things that this sim doesn't model well. As a result I'm a little dissapointed with the results of my hard work.

 

The use of precision guided munitions isn't handled by AI very well, and is very simplified when it comes to the player using them. A lot of the fun of using an LGB ulitmately comes from using LANTIRN and radar in conjuction to identify and lock up a target, then finally slewing the view around on the MFD to get a visual and designate. All of this is summed up with the "E" key in the TW series.

 

The coordination and reliance on a well executed team effort is also a big part of it. SEAD and Escort flights do a mediocre job in this sim at best. I often find the SEAD flight arriving on target at the same time as or after my strike package, and then they drop some cluster bombs on one or two guns and then they're out of there, instead of targeting and taking out one of the several SAM sites that have me painted and diving for the deck. And we all know what happens when you ask Red Crown for assistance...

 

I don't mean to rant against the TW games. They do what they were made to do extremely well (60's-70's air combat). While the outstanding mod community has given all the essentials for a 90's, 00's, or 10's scenario we're sitll plugging those into an engine designed for within visual range air combat and dumb bombs.

 

So, while I've put a lot of effort into a modern campaign, I'll probably ulitmately end up archiving it and sticking with all the 60's-70's stuff, since that's where the immersion factor maxes out with this series. I'll let F4AF handle the modern stuff...

 

Ok, off my soap box now...

 

PS - all that being said, I'm still greatly looking forward to the Desert Storm mod and all the greatness it will offer. Maybe it'll change my opinion on modern combat in the TW series...

Edited September 2, 2008 by malibu43

[Icarus999 70]

Who has read my posts during winter knows that this has been a thing on my mind

We are talking abour GuidedWeapons usage from AI flights not on player's formation.

 

In SFP, WOV WOE SP4, AI flight won't drop any guided bomb but overfly targets and go home. That the plane has or not a designato on board does not change anything. Period. In SEAD and CAS, isntead, they will employ LGB, EOGR, and ARMS with carying ability.

 

In WOI latest patch I experimented escorting a strike of AI F-16, after changing their loadout yo AGM-65D. No missile fired. the bug is still there

Having the Weapon pack installed I will try tomorrow LGB loadouts and attacks. But I am pessimistic

 

A shame, because the only real problem in the game , IMHO, in order to simulate modern operations is the inability of the AI to employ guided weapon. It is really the only real issue in simulating nowadays aerialcombat, (yes I know, Awacs is missing for example..but I don't feel, IMHO and to my personal tastes, the big problem. Seeing those LGBS and JDAMs under planes'wings makes me very sad..)

 

 

So the problem you are having with AI and guided weapons is happening when you select Strike or anti ship as the mission for the AI flight? Are the targets in question "terrain" targets or targets that you

inserted into the map with a mission editor? I have had big problems like you describe in the past, however my newer missions are much improved. I will try the JDAM and see if i can get it working in my game.

[Guest pfunkmusik]

So the problem you are having with AI and guided weapons is happening when you select Strike or anti ship as the mission for the AI flight? Are the targets in question "terrain" targets or targets that you

inserted into the map with a mission editor? I have had big problems like you describe in the past, however my newer missions are much improved. I will try the JDAM and see if i can get it working in my game.

 

This is not a single mission, it's an entire campaign I'm working on.

 

pfunk

[Icarus999 70]

This is not a single mission, it's an entire campaign I'm working on.

 

pfunk

 

 

I am not sure how campaigns operate as far as target insertion, do you have the option of placing ground objects seperatly from terrain targets as one can do when creating a mission with a mission

editor? Based on my reserch I believe it is likely that the problem that Canadair is having with JADAM's and other guided bombs/ Missiles is that he is selecting a "terrain target" to hit with the weapon rather than inserting a hard target such as a bunker or a building as a ground object. In my tests against 4 bunkers with jadams- a 2 ship flight hit the bunkers taking out 2 on the first pass then dropped tanks and

#1 fired 2 HARMs at two seperate targets while #2 finished off the last 2 bunkers.

Then I tried it again: they dropped JADAMs hit two bunkers dropped tanks and this time # 2 took took out a sam/radar with a HARM while #1 hit the 3rd bunker, then #2 came back in and made 3 passes/turns in the canyon trying to get a firing solution on the last bunker. #2 destroyed the last bunker but was unable pull up enough to clear the canyon and crashed into the side of the mountain... he almost made it.

 

This was a CAS mission with a Strike payload using the Superbug.

[Canadair 16]

This was a CAS mission with a Strike payload using the Superbug.

I don't understand what is not clear.

 

LEt me try, again to narrow and describe this "feauture of the game".

 

I have no problem in my install, for starter. This is a problem od the game, admitted by TK itself on the 3rdwire.

Scenario: Campaign

Player Mission: ESCORT, OR SWEEP, or SEAD..anything but STRIKE

Most likely there will be an AI flight tasked with STRIKE.

This is not an uncommon scenario in any campiagn, right?.

IF the AI flight is armed only with GUIDED WEAPONS, they won't launch them against their target. That's it. (CAS and SEAD will instead release their guided weapons, ARMS, EOGR, whatever.

It is difficult to notice because most of the time in campaigns the time frame is such that strike flight is equipped with dumb bombs only, It is not suprising to see that the problem surface the more contemporary aircraftsd and campaigns became popular and strike flights are equipped with iron bombs

As for the scripted mission I guess the problem is the same, but I never tried. One workarond is to have the mission as CAS instead of STRIKE;

Icarus'999 Jdam launches are due to mission type, and I bet the bunkers are labeled as tanks in his install. Or he was talking about his own flight, in this case the experiment hs no meaning since we are talking about AI flight and not the player controlled one. Another workaround is ot place, with mission editor, a "vehicle" under the target you wantto be attacked, and task the mission as CAS. In this case they should drop. It obviously NOT applicable in campaigns.

Player controlled wingmen, on a strike mission, WILL drop guided weapons. What turns out irrealistic is theefore, in the end, escorting, doing sead to smart weapons equipped strike flights, which, unrealistically, won't aattack their target and drop ordnance.

Another workaround is to make a copy of the weapons, but withou guidance. They will drop it like iron bombs. Not realistic at all, but in the elast you don't feel that yuor escort, or sead is useless ebcasue they don't drop.

The pioint being is that TK, RIGHTLY SO, has decided to focus on the before-smart-weapons-era. Guided ammos are a plus, and the only default one is the maverick; but he sees MAverick as CAS weapon, not a Strike one. In WOV there is the Walleye as weapon (even before weapon pack) that is not a CAS weapon, but is one weapon on all the others with 99% dumb.

Unless TK thinks that is a good idea (and he has the funds ) to extend operationa time of the strike fighters era in modern age, I guesss the problem of the guided ammo will stay, becasue from his point view it is not a problem in the timeframe he provides. It is us pushing the envelope, and wanting to play JDAM and LGB attacks.

Besides far bigger problems have bene eliminated with latestWOI patch, such as strikers evading when attacked. instead of flying straight and level.

In the end this guided ag weapons thing is alimiting factor to modern day campaings, where stikers are 100% equipped with smart weapons.

[Guest pfunkmusik]

I don't understand what is not clear.

 

LEt me try, again to narrow and describe this "feauture of the game".

 

I have no problem in my install, for starter. This is a problem od the game, admitted by TK itself on the 3rdwire.

Scenario: Campaign

Player Mission: ESCORT, OR SWEEP, or SEAD..anything but STRIKE

Most likely there will be an AI flight tasked with STRIKE.

This is not an uncommon scenario in any campiagn, right?.

IF the AI flight is armed only with GUIDED WEAPONS, they won't launch them against their target. That's it. (CAS and SEAD will instead release their guided weapons, ARMS, EOGR, whatever.

It is difficult to notice because most of the time in campaigns the time frame is such that strike flight is equipped with dumb bombs only, It is not suprising to see that the problem surface the more contemporary aircraftsd and campaigns became popular and strike flights are equipped with iron bombs

As for the scripted mission I guess the problem is the same, but I never tried. One workarond is to have the mission as CAS instead of STRIKE;

Icarus'999 Jdam launches are due to mission type, and I bet the bunkers are labeled as tanks in his install. Or he was talking about his own flight, in this case the experiment hs no meaning since we are talking about AI flight and not the player controlled one. Another workaround is ot place, with mission editor, a "vehicle" under the target you wantto be attacked, and task the mission as CAS. In this case they should drop. It obviously NOT applicable in campaigns.

Player controlled wingmen, on a strike mission, WILL drop guided weapons. What turns out irrealistic is theefore, in the end, escorting, doing sead to smart weapons equipped strike flights, which, unrealistically, won't aattack their target and drop ordnance.

Another workaround is to make a copy of the weapons, but withou guidance. They will drop it like iron bombs. Not realistic at all, but in the elast you don't feel that yuor escort, or sead is useless ebcasue they don't drop.

The pioint being is that TK, RIGHTLY SO, has decided to focus on the before-smart-weapons-era. Guided ammos are a plus, and the only default one is the maverick; but he sees MAverick as CAS weapon, not a Strike one. In WOV there is the Walleye as weapon (even before weapon pack) that is not a CAS weapon, but is one weapon on all the others with 99% dumb.

Unless TK thinks that is a good idea (and he has the funds ) to extend operationa time of the strike fighters era in modern age, I guesss the problem of the guided ammo will stay, becasue from his point view it is not a problem in the timeframe he provides. It is us pushing the envelope, and wanting to play JDAM and LGB attacks.

Besides far bigger problems have bene eliminated with latestWOI patch, such as strikers evading when attacked. instead of flying straight and level.

In the end this guided ag weapons thing is alimiting factor to modern day campaings, where stikers are 100% equipped with smart weapons.

 

I'm going to attempt an experiment. The default install's weapons set has guided weapons like the Maverick, the HOBOS, Paveways, and such. I'm going to attempt to get the campaign engine to just use THOSE weapons, the default ones that come with the game, no aftermarket weapons allowed.

 

If I can get those to work, maybe we can figure this out.

 

pfunk

[+Gocad 26]

I'm going to attempt an experiment. The default install's weapons set has guided weapons like the Maverick, the HOBOS, Paveways, and such. I'm going to attempt to get the campaign engine to just use THOSE weapons, the default ones that come with the game, no aftermarket weapons allowed.

 

It has nothing to do with stock vs. addon weapons, the AI just doesn't like LGBs, CGRs, etc. That's how it is. End of story.

[+malibu43 142]

The best way to deal with this is to just ensure that the default strike loadout for all aircraft includes at least one type of dumb bomb. That way the AI flights will always have something to drop.

[+Julhelm 266]

You could make "dumb" versions of smart weapons, too.

[Icarus999 70]

I don't understand what is not clear.

 

LEt me try, again to narrow and describe this "feauture of the game".

 

I have no problem in my install, for starter. This is a problem od the game, admitted by TK itself on the 3rdwire.

Scenario: Campaign

Player Mission: ESCORT, OR SWEEP, or SEAD..anything but STRIKE

Most likely there will be an AI flight tasked with STRIKE.

This is not an uncommon scenario in any campiagn, right?.

IF the AI flight is armed only with GUIDED WEAPONS, they won't launch them against their target. That's it. (CAS and SEAD will instead release their guided weapons, ARMS, EOGR, whatever.

It is difficult to notice because most of the time in campaigns the time frame is such that strike flight is equipped with dumb bombs only, It is not suprising to see that the problem surface the more contemporary aircraftsd and campaigns became popular and strike flights are equipped with iron bombs

As for the scripted mission I guess the problem is the same, but I never tried. One workarond is to have the mission as CAS instead of STRIKE;

Icarus'999 Jdam launches are due to mission type, and I bet the bunkers are labeled as tanks in his install. Or he was talking about his own flight, in this case the experiment hs no meaning since we are talking about AI flight and not the player controlled one. Another workaround is ot place, with mission editor, a "vehicle" under the target you wantto be attacked, and task the mission as CAS. In this case they should drop. It obviously NOT applicable in campaigns.

Player controlled wingmen, on a strike mission, WILL drop guided weapons. What turns out irrealistic is theefore, in the end, escorting, doing sead to smart weapons equipped strike flights, which, unrealistically, won't aattack their target and drop ordnance.

Another workaround is to make a copy of the weapons, but withou guidance. They will drop it like iron bombs. Not realistic at all, but in the elast you don't feel that yuor escort, or sead is useless ebcasue they don't drop.

The pioint being is that TK, RIGHTLY SO, has decided to focus on the before-smart-weapons-era. Guided ammos are a plus, and the only default one is the maverick; but he sees MAverick as CAS weapon, not a Strike one. In WOV there is the Walleye as weapon (even before weapon pack) that is not a CAS weapon, but is one weapon on all the others with 99% dumb.

Unless TK thinks that is a good idea (and he has the funds ) to extend operationa time of the strike fighters era in modern age, I guesss the problem of the guided ammo will stay, becasue from his point view it is not a problem in the timeframe he provides. It is us pushing the envelope, and wanting to play JDAM and LGB attacks.

Besides far bigger problems have bene eliminated with latestWOI patch, such as strikers evading when attacked. instead of flying straight and level.

In the end this guided ag weapons thing is alimiting factor to modern day campaings, where stikers are 100% equipped with smart weapons.

 

Hey bro, I had noticed your previous posts last winter about the AI's refusal to drop smart weapons and I as well have had the same problem. I am not challenging anything you are saying about the AI

and since i do not play campaign mode I do not know how the targeting works in campaigns. What I am trying to accomplish is to put our heads together and compare notes to make this work with what we have. What I have found is that if I insert ground objects as a targets such as bunkers or buildings and select CAS or Armed recon the AI flights (read not a/c from my flight) will destroy them with smart bombs missiles. not only will the AI flights kill the target that I sent them after but the will often kill any target of oppertunity (other ground objects I placed on the map or sams / AAA that target them.

 

For my use designing single missions it makes no difference to me whether the mission is called Strike or CAS because I have the ability to assign the AI flights any loadout I want for any mission. I can select a strikeloadout for a CAS mission or an anti ship loadout for a Armed recon mission.

 

Also just for the sake of clarity the bunker i used was not labled as a tank:

 

MissionData

 

NationName=NVietnam

ServiceStartYear=1940

ServiceEndYear=1975

GroundObjectRole=MISC

Availability=COMMON

Exported=FALSE

ExportStartYear=

ExportAvailability=

 

 

 

 

Now what I am doing may only work for single missions... you campain players will have to let me know

[Canadair 16]

Hey bro, I had noticed your previous posts last winter about the AI's refusal to drop smart weapons and I as well have had the same problem. I am not challenging anything you are saying about the AI

and since i do not play campaign mode I do not know how the targeting works in campaigns. What I am trying to accomplish is to put our heads together and compare notes to make this work with what we have. What I have found is that if I insert ground objects as a targets such as bunkers or buildings and select CAS or Armed recon the AI flights (read not a/c from my flight) will destroy them with smart bombs missiles. not only will the AI flights kill the target that I sent them after but the will often kill any target of oppertunity (other ground objects I placed on the map or sams / AAA that target them.

 

For my use designing single missions it makes no difference to me whether the mission is called Strike or CAS because I have the ability to assign the AI flights any loadout I want for any mission. I can select a strikeloadout for a CAS mission or an anti ship loadout for a Armed recon mission.

 

Also just for the sake of clarity the bunker i used was not labled as a tank:

 

MissionData

 

NationName=NVietnam

ServiceStartYear=1940

ServiceEndYear=1975

GroundObjectRole=MISC

Availability=COMMON

Exported=FALSE

ExportStartYear=

ExportAvailability=

 

 

 

 

Now what I am doing may only work for single missions... you campain players will have to let me know

 

Incredably intersting finding then!. So, in the least we can have scripted missions in which the AI drops smart weapon.

I play much more campaigns than single mission so I haven't thoguht abiout this.

I gues that campaign makes a strike mission and we can't change it though. I really don't see a workaround in campaigns