Time for a silly F-8 question

[Gr.Viper 131]

My flight of 8 F-8s got into dogfight with Frecos in WoV. September patch applied. About five minutes in half of Crusaders, including me, were taking a nap in the nearby swamps. The rest of us survived and even scored some kills because all MiGs headed for home bases and weren't dodging the shots much.

 

Any Crusader hints apart from staying away from MiGs? Those guys are just swarming on your tail and either shoot you or push you into ground.

[+Crusader 2,101]

just fly it like a hard wing F-4

i.e stay fast, use the vertical.

[gbnavy61 1]

In the F-8, you can turn a little better than the F-4, but still not as good as the MiGs. So, like Crusader said, keep the speed up and avoid the flat turn.

 

If you find a MiG on your tail, don't just try to yank the nose around on the horizon - you'll bleed off speed badly and the MiG will be inside your turn in seconds (says the voice of experience). Then, it'll be game over for you very shortly.

 

So, stay fast, use burner liberally (it's your "ass" on the line) but keep an eye on the fuel gauge. If you need to put speed on, with a MiG on your tail, go to full burner, jink a lot, then unload to put some knots back on (unload = push forward stick to get near 0G - you accelerate better near 0G because you're essentially "fooling" physics into thinking your jet has no weight - therefore your wings don't have to produce much lift and as a result they produce less drag).

 

A couple other things, depending on the difficulty settings:

 

1. If you've got sidewinders, try to shoot when the MiG has broken off a maneuver - he's probably lowest on energy at this point and will have the most difficulty evading. The more you fight them, you can be a better judge of their energy state. Also, as many F-8 pilots did in the war, you may want to think about firing off 2 sidewinders per target - just make sure you have a good lock.

 

2. To make your cannon ammo last (if it's limited) map the "gun group" function. If you're on full realism, the Mk 12's will jam a lot. It's most likely when firing and pulling higher G. So, if you use the gun group function, you can switch between 2/2/4 cannons selected. This makes your ammo last longer and will stop you from jamming all 4 cannon at once.

 

3. Since you will be trying to keep your speed higher, the MiGs will most likely be slower. Sometimes you'll be lining up a shot and the MiG will try to force an overshoot by going to idle and throwing the boards out. Since he's now only slightly more aerodynamic than a barn door, he's gonna bleed speed in a hurry. If you've got a sidewinder tone, smoke his ass here. Otherwise, be prepared to blow past him and get out of the fight. You can decide whether or not to reengage. The voice of experience says, if you're kill hungry (the MiG was probably just shooting at you or one of your buddies) you will try to slow down with him - you'll probably chop throttle and throw the boards out as well. Now, you'll probably realize you're still going to overshoot so, in a vain effort to stay behind him you might try a rolling pull to further bleed your speed. At this point you'll probably see the MiG start to slide to the side of your cockpit (opposite your roll) and then up the canopy. Then, you should see the ground going around and around out of the front. Time to recover from your spin - forget about the MiG, the ground is trying to kill you now. It's happened to me twice so far (always with the boards out) and the first time I was so low that all I could do was go for the handle. If you want, take a single mission - recon - and get your F-8 up above 10K and try spinning it and recovering (opposite rudder).

Edited September 24, 2008 by gbnavy61

[ironroad 218]

"How do you fly it?"

 

High and Fast

 

 

I use a lot of barrel rolls, yo-yos, and scissors. Yeah the F-8 could out turn any fighter in the US inventory at the time, but don't try getting into a turning fight with a mig (well maybe a Mig-19). Speed is life....

[DaSpungie 1]

full ab nose down hard right or left rudder

pull up 90degress to front of mig line him up and pull the trigger

btw for those who do n ot know the " ; " key will split your guns into 2 groups

gives you twice as much ammo

hand for more migs than f-8's

[+Dave 2,322]

"How do you fly it?"

 

Do everything gbnavy61 has said, to the letter......

[Rambler 1-1 9]

this may come in handy in the Air Combat School over in the general forums.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Wow... Thanks!

 

A little follow up. Which way I'm supposed to land?

The map waypoints tell me to approach the carrier from the rear :rapage: while the AI manage to align their Crusaders with the strip

 

I know it's not necessary to land, but how the [censored] does one get on a diagonal strip of a moving carrier? I mean I usually land along the deck after three tries at least. So much easier on A-4...

 

BTW, AI isn' perfect at landings sometimes. In the latest version of WoE I saw my wingman in F-100 puling up sharply all the time instead of steady approach. And my other wingman managed to crash intro water on take off on the first day of WoV campaign

[kesegy 5]

didn't see it yet in the september patch, but this is usually how my wingmen used to land. they would touch down, bounce, go to edge, tip over and just when they were about to fall in the water they'd disappear like they landed properly.

ah happy memories always bring a smile to my face

 

[crl848 9]

Wow... Thanks!

 

A little follow up. Which way I'm supposed to land?

The map waypoints tell me to approach the carrier from the rear :rapage: while the AI manage to align their Crusaders with the strip

 

I know it's not necessary to land, but how the [censored] does one get on a diagonal strip of a moving carrier? I mean I usually land along the deck after three tries at least. So much easier on A-4...

 

BTW, AI isn' perfect at landings sometimes. In the latest version of WoE I saw my wingman in F-100 puling up sharply all the time instead of steady approach. And my other wingman managed to crash intro water on take off on the first day of WoV campaign

 

You need to do it the realistic way with a proper pattern approach.

 

Fly past the carrier on its heading, then as you pass it put the speedbrakes out and initiate a 180 degree turn to port onto the downwind leg at about 1000 ft. At the appropriate speed, lower gear, hook and flaps. As you pass the LSO platform (or the stern of the carrier), start another 180 degree turn to port onto finals. Not too high a descent rate so that you can intercept a reasonable glide slope (one where you can see the carrier without pointing the nose down - say 800 ft above the water). Cross the wake and line up with the centre line on the flight deck. You may have to point at the starboard side of the deck to adjust for the wind over the deck pushing you to port.

 

When you are in the groove (on centre line and glide slope), "call the ball" for realism. Say, to no one in particular, "[sidenumber], Gator Ball [Gator = nickname for Crusader], [fuel remaining]". Maintain landing attitude and use throttle to keep the sight picture of the flight deck and stay on glide slope. Touch down and catch a 3 wire, hook up and power across the foul line. Job done.

[+Typhoid 231]

You need to do it the realistic way with a proper pattern approach.

 

Fly past the carrier on its heading, then as you pass it put the speedbrakes out and initiate a 180 degree turn to port onto the downwind leg at about 1000 ft. At the appropriate speed, lower gear, hook and flaps. As you pass the LSO platform (or the stern of the carrier), start another 180 degree turn to port onto finals. Not too high a descent rate so that you can intercept a reasonable glide slope (one where you can see the carrier without pointing the nose down - say 800 ft above the water). Cross the wake and line up with the centre line on the flight deck. You may have to point at the starboard side of the deck to adjust for the wind over the deck pushing you to port.

 

When you are in the groove (on centre line and glide slope), "call the ball" for realism. Say, to no one in particular, "[sidenumber], Gator Ball [Gator = nickname for Crusader], [fuel remaining]". Maintain landing attitude and use throttle to keep the sight picture of the flight deck and stay on glide slope. Touch down and catch a 3 wire, hook up and power across the foul line. Job done.

 

another couple of minor points. In order to keep the speed under control and still have visibility, I've found that on most planes you need a combination of the speed brakes out and use power to control glideslope. Not exactly as the real world but it does work.

 

Also, the wind over the deck in the sim does not come down the angle as it should, but comes down the main deck. In other words the ship turns directly into the wind rather than turning to control the WOD. this results in a right to left crosswind component which you can compensate for by aiming for the notch between the angle and the bow and crab into the landing. Again, not quite realistic but it works. I haven't had time yet to try this with the new patch.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Typhoid

[crl848 9]

Also, the wind over the deck in the sim does not come down the angle as it should, but comes down the main deck. In other words the ship turns directly into the wind rather than turning to control the WOD. this results in a right to left crosswind component which you can compensate for by aiming for the notch between the angle and the bow and crab into the landing. Again, not quite realistic but it works. I haven't had time yet to try this with the new patch.

 

I remember from one of Paul Gillcrist's books, he mentions doing this when the carrier was making its own wind (steaming fast) to compensate for a lack of real wind. As you say, this seems to happen in the sim most of the time. Makes life more interesting!

Edited September 25, 2008 by crl848

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Trying to turn with a MIG is usually nice way to die. If your speed bleeds off too much it will come around and bite you.

 

Remember this...If you are engaging hard turning MIGs, your AIM-9s are almost guaranteed to miss. From my experience, unless the MIG was dead ahead and more or less straight and level it was a wasted shot. Once i closed inside of a mile i switched to guns. If the Mig breaks, go vertical and yo-yo back into either a guns tracking or lag pursuit position.

 

If you can make the MIG come after you in the vertical you'll have a decided advantage since it will be bleeding speed to the point that either a wingman has a shot at an easy target or you can bring your nose over to regain energy easily quicker than the MIG. If you are dealing with MIG-17s try to lure them up to higher altitudes. The F-8 has superior performance higher up than a 17.

 

The F-8 has rather limited ammo so gun fire has to be in very short bursts. About 1-2 seconds is all you want.

[+Typhoid 231]

I remember from one of Paul Gillcrist's books, he mentions doing this when the carrier was making its own wind (steaming fast) to compensate for a lack of real wind. As you say, this seems to happen in the sim most of the time. Makes life more interesting!

 

he was an interesting gentleman to work for.

[Sixgun 0]

Until the latest patch, a tactic of mine versus the 21 or 19 (or another F-8) was to drop the droops (pop the wing) when I got below 260kias in a turning fight. I have not tried the new patch yet.

 

This would give me a great rate and no high speed stall at full stick deflection as long as you kept the knots below 270. When you get below 200 or so, the "air data computer" (I guess) lets the wing come up, and when you get fast again, it comes back down.

 

The downside? Poor acceleration (ok for a rolling scissors or sustained high-G flat fight) and a rather wicked roll instability coupled with a reduced negative pitch authority (read almost zero), so that you have to be careful not to lead pursue too much at low speed. In other words, trying to bunt to get off a shot on a reversing target frequently finds you in a rather un-commanded outside barrel roll...not good.

 

You might be able to tell, the F-8 is my ACM mount of choice. It does nearly everything well.

 

As a mercenary for Dhimar, I recently made over a million dollars in one campaign with it (full realism, uber AI). Record 22 kills in one mission

 

Another trick? load a couple of LAU-61 pods on the wings for every mission. Low weight penalty and only really draggy after the first shot. Got Beagles? Sit back at half a mile and plink with rockets... you will eventually get good with them. Fighters? hose a whole pod at high deflection. Going home and still got em? Lob some at the nearest enemy fuel tank or flight line.

[Rambler 1-1 9]

Using Tactics listed here (and at the Air Combat School), I was able to make my latest pilot a Phantom ace in three missions. I am Rambler 1 and I approve this message.

 

I like to circle high and tell my wingman to engage the MiGs below, and I become the wing man, covering him. Sometimes he gets into a turning fight and then I dive in to save the day, or sometimes a MiG will try profusely to climb up to get me, and I just slip down behind him. And let me tell you, there's noting that's easier to shoot then a high and slow MiG 21.

[Sixgun 0]

he was an interesting gentleman to work for.

 

Please do expound, Admiral Gillcrist is one of my favorite authors.

[crl848 9]

Please do expound, Admiral Gillcrist is one of my favorite authors.

 

Hear hear.

[+Typhoid 231]

Hear hear.

 

not that much to tell really. That was after his active flying period when he was Commander Fighter Airborne Early Warning Wing Pacific (COMFITAEWWINGPAC) at NAS Miramar when I was there as an E-2 instructor. So he was a couple of echelons above my paygrade. During that time we had Top Gun there which is when I was controlling them and flew with VF-126 in the same role.

 

He was our Glorious Leader for all of us on the station. I met him a couple of times but didn't work directly with or for him. My skipper did though and he set the tone for the station with the full fighter mentality and integration of fighters and hummers. Fun times.

 

I do recall one time when the new Commander Naval Base San Diego (Senior Officer Present and 11 Naval District Commander) and a (puke puke) black-shoe sailor put out a new policy letter that no one in the San Diego area would wear their leather flight jackets through the gate on pain of confiscation and we would all wear Service Dress Blues (Class A) as the regular uniform of the day unless directly and immediately involved in flight operations. Needless to say that did not go over real well at Fighter-Hummer Town. RADM Gilcrest immediately jumped into his car "I'll take care of this!!" and headed downtown.

 

He came back without his flight jacket and in Service Dress Blues............

 

[gbnavy61 1]

Damn 'shoes - always f***ing things up for the rest of us.