+SkippyBing 8 Posted November 13, 2008 not exactly. Remember that pirates are not exactly flying a state flag, and are therefore not afforded those rights of protection under such a flag. They are, quite bluntly, fair game. They are particularly fair game if caught in the act of attempted piracy. It depends on what the ROE in the area is in force. There are now, I think, 4 task forces or groups of warships patrolling the area operating under several different organizational authorities, and each warship also operates under its own national authority and ROE. True pirates don't fly state flags, but it then comes down to how your ROE requires you to prove/verify the vessel isn't flying a state flag. Also if you don't catch them in an act of piracy the vessels they're using look exactly like the boats that are used for fishing etc. so you can't just fire on every small boat in the area even if they've got weapons on-board, I mean maybe they're worried about pirates too! An act act of piracy against which state???Somalia-ah my friend you have to be be joking right? It would still be an act of piracy against the vessel if you opened fire first on an un-flagged vessel especially if it's running away and therefore not a threat, you'd first have to offer them the chance to stop and surrender, fire warning shots etc. and if they're still not threatening life attempt to stop them without causing harm. Obviously as demonstrated by my colleagues on Cumberland if the pirates shoot at you then it's a whole new game. Note different countries have different legal requirements as to what they can and can't do to un-flagged vessels in international waters, after all they're international waters so there is very little in the way of jurisdiction. Look at the pirate radio ships that used to sit outside territorial waters in the North Sea and broadcast to the UK. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TX3RN0BILL 3 Posted November 13, 2008 Eh? You want to compare pirate radio stations with armed piracy that threatens other people's lives and goods? I mean, tuning into a pirate radio station is one thing... having the proverbial cutlass at your throat is something completely different!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SkippyBing 8 Posted November 13, 2008 Not with pirates but un-flagged vessels or indeed anyone operating in international waters. As they're outside any legal jurisdiction there's very little you can do unless they commit a hostile act, at which point the right of self-defence comes into play. Before that they're just people with guns in a boat, you can't chase them into territorial waters either unless you have the consent of that country as it'd be an act of war. Mind you the pirate skiffs are faster than most Frigates and Destroyers anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SkippyBing 8 Posted November 13, 2008 That is quite politically correct. Que merde! It does save money though! Also if your smallest weapon is a 30mm CIWS then you can use it in self defence against a skiff armed with AK-47s as it's the most proportionate response you can deliver. To be honest the size of the boats these pirates are using a lot of missiles probably wouldn't even get a lock on them, ditto fire control radar for the main guns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 13, 2008 True pirates don't fly state flags, but it then comes down to how your ROE requires you to prove/verify the vessel isn't flying a state flag. Also if you don't catch them in an act of piracy the vessels they're using look exactly like the boats that are used for fishing etc. so you can't just fire on every small boat in the area even if they've got weapons on-board, I mean maybe they're worried about pirates too! It would still be an act of piracy against the vessel if you opened fire first on an un-flagged vessel especially if it's running away and therefore not a threat, you'd first have to offer them the chance to stop and surrender, fire warning shots etc. and if they're still not threatening life attempt to stop them without causing harm. Obviously as demonstrated by my colleagues on Cumberland if the pirates shoot at you then it's a whole new game. Note different countries have different legal requirements as to what they can and can't do to un-flagged vessels in international waters, after all they're international waters so there is very little in the way of jurisdiction. Look at the pirate radio ships that used to sit outside territorial waters in the North Sea and broadcast to the UK. all very true which makes life "fun" for the poor CO and his Task Force Commander............. (who was it who said, in reference to a new government, first hang all the lawyers?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SkippyBing 8 Posted November 13, 2008 (who was it who said, in reference to a new government, first hang all the lawyers?) Come the revolution that's plan A! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 13, 2008 Couldn't BB61 Iowa be reactivated again? having ridden Iowa for a several months in the Med, way overkill for small boats! A superb warship but now a niche platform for a very narrow mission set. Within that mission set, there is nothing that can match what the Battleship can do and at the lowest cost as well. Simply awesome to watch Real Artillery in action!! But outside of that mission set, the BB is not cost effective. Way too high a personel cost, fuel cost and maintenance upkeep. To suppress piracy, we need lots of Frigates and Destroyers with helicopter gunships, airborne surveillance and quick reaction light combat capabilities. now. Whenever we grow a pair and decide to start dismantling the shore sites where the pirates are based, the BB would again be awesome. That's her niche. Coupled with UAV targetting the BB guns can dismantle in very short order anything at all with aircraft going further inland beyond the range of the Real Artillery. But not likely we will ever get there........ oh, and unless there has been a significant upgrade that I'm not aware of (quite possible given how long I've been out of the fleet) the CIWS does not have a mode to engage small boats. That's why the USN, and everyone else as well, has installed 50cal. There was an effort to mount the same chain gun in the Bradley onto our combattants but I don't know where that ended up. Real Artillery is 16" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macelena 1,070 Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) It´s just a question of letting the military do their job. Knew of a seaman aboard SNS Mendez Nuñez, an AEGIS frigate that met pirates that just left an spanish fishing boat, and they were ordered to have their 5 incher empty to avoid any accidental damage- that we should have made on purpose. Our Orion had to drop smoke to scare pirates showing their RPG and protect a malasyian tanker, could not fire Mavericks because "they could be fishermen", bulls**t unless they were about...: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk6Puz_sdts Edited November 13, 2008 by macelena Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 13, 2008 It´s just a question of letting the military do their job. Knew of a seaman aboard SNS Mendez Nuñez, an AEGIS frigate that met pirates that just left an spanish fishing boat, and they were ordered to have their 5 incher empty to aovid any accidental damage- that we should have made on purpose. Our Orion had to drop smoke to scare pirates showing their RPG and protect a malasyian tanker, could fire Mavericks because "they could be fishermen", bulls**t unless they were about...: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk6Puz_sdts you are absolutely right. The problem of piracy would be over in about 24 hours if the forces currently on station were allowed to fix the problem. But none of the countries with those forces presently deployed have the political will to do so, nor are any of those countries likely to grow a pair in the foreseeable future. Heheh... 4 task groups of different nations and each with their ROEs... I wonder if kill-stealing of pirates will be considered piracy in itself? I love it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SkippyBing 8 Posted November 13, 2008 the CIWS does not have a mode to engage small boats. I think the latest version of Phalanx has an IR/Visual targeting option, and there were some trials on HMS York back in '01 but I don't know if it's a capability that's being fielded at the moment. There was a piece in Navy News about HMS St Albans getting a remotely operated 20mm which sounds ideal for that sort of thing. An LPH/LPD with an air group of ASuW helicopters and some Marine boarding parties might actually be a better bet than an FF/DD which would be carting around a lot of unnecessary capability for limited effect i.e. 1 Helo and 1 boarding party. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 13, 2008 I think the latest version of Phalanx has an IR/Visual targeting option, and there were some trials on HMS York back in '01 but I don't know if it's a capability that's being fielded at the moment. There was a piece in Navy News about HMS St Albans getting a remotely operated 20mm which sounds ideal for that sort of thing. An LPH/LPD with an air group of ASuW helicopters and some Marine boarding parties might actually be a better bet than an FF/DD which would be carting around a lot of unnecessary capability for limited effect i.e. 1 Helo and 1 boarding party. we do, in fact, have one of those on station as part of this operation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Jug 99 Posted November 13, 2008 we do, in fact, have one of those on station as part of this operation. Personally, I think we need to send Nikki in her Spad out there.................problem solved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) Personally, I think we need to send Nikki in her Spad out there.................problem solved. hmmm........ intriguing idea. Maybe an independent group without legal constraints and discreetely funded..... like mercenarie$.......... I see a Wings over Pirates variation of SFP1 coming......... Real Artillery is 16" Edited November 13, 2008 by Typhoid Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macelena 1,070 Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) hmmm........ intriguing idea. Maybe an independent group without legal constraints and discreetely funded..... like mercenarie$.......... I see a Wings over Pirates variation of SFP1 coming......... Real Artillery is 16" Has anybody seen Porco Rosso lately?Think he had something out Malaca Straits EDIT: Has he got a SeaDagger?? time to replace the Savoia 21F Edited November 13, 2008 by macelena Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SkippyBing 8 Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) we do, in fact, have one of those on station as part of this operation. Yeah, I'm kind of hoping the RN sends one as well as I could do with some winter sun! intriguing idea. Maybe an independent group without legal constraints and discreetely funded..... like mercenarie$.......... We were actually talking about this in the crewroom a few weeks back and trying to figure out if we could set ourselves up as some sort of protection racket. If anyone knows where we can get our hands on a 10000 ton cargo ship we could convert into a helo carrier on the cheap drops us a line. Edited November 13, 2008 by SkippyBing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JediMaster 451 Posted November 13, 2008 Ah, anti-pirate pirates! They go out and prey on pirates, taking anything they've stolen for themselves and killing all the pirates! Arrrrr!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+SkippyBing 8 Posted November 13, 2008 We've got a business plan and everything! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 13, 2008 We've got a business plan and everything! awesome! seriously, I am surprised that some of the shipping companies haven't banded together and hired some group. Maybe they have........... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macelena 1,070 Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) We agree on the important things... I got a corsair license over here to fight pirates. It was t waste Henry Morgan, but the license can´t get phased out, so we could get the Intrepid, embark some scooters and sail, sail, etc. Any volunteers? EDIT: Loot is 50% for operational expenditure and 50%... OK, finder keepers Edited November 13, 2008 by macelena Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 13, 2008 "I got a corsair license over here to fight pirates." really? That would be an awesome license to frame in my business office! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+allenjb42 4,234 Posted November 18, 2008 This is getting ridiculous. They captured an oil tanker the size of a US aircraft carrier, loaded with a cargo of 2m barrels - a quarter of Saudi Arabia's daily output - worth more than $100m. And now they captured another two ships today (Tuesday 18 November). According to the BBC the industry that has sprung up around these pirates even includes restaurants for the hostage crews of various nationalities. To paraphrase Obi Wan Kenobi: The port city of Eyl: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7735507.stm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 18, 2008 "They captured an oil tanker the size of a US aircraft carrier:" three times the size of a USN aircraft carrier! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fubar512 1,350 Posted November 18, 2008 I predict vicious airstrikes against the pirate's stronghold, by unmarked aircraft of indeterminate nationality. Harriers and F-18s supported by Su-33s....lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Typhoid 231 Posted November 18, 2008 I predict vicious airstrikes against the pirate's stronghold, by unmarked aircraft of indeterminate nationality. Harriers and F-18s supported by Su-33s....lol that would be; 1. Awesome 2. appropriate 3. about damn time!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ezlead 42 Posted November 18, 2008 Proportional response is:whatever works. What are the pirates going to do,file a greivance with the UN. "But,Mr. Secretary,We were in the process of hijacking this ship,when this big grey boat showed up and blew the sh** out of us." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
