F-18 down

[+Typhoid 231]

Man... some guys on the radio this morning were crticizing the pilot for "putting it down" in a neighborhood. Pissed me off... Obviously, if the pilot was able to control where the aircraft was going, he probably would have tried to avoid the ground all together...

 

concur. Sounds to me like he did what he could but when it was no longer controllable, he left. I don't fault him on that.

 

edit: and neither does the man who lost his family;

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,464729,00.html

 

 

I am, at the moment anyway, "curious" the series of decisions that put him there with a broken jet.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Typhoid

[charlielima 328]

concur. Sounds to me like he did what he could but when it was no longer controllable, he left. I don't fault him on that. I am, at the moment anyway, "curious" the series of decisions that put him there with a broken jet.

 

OK I'll Say It. The young gentleman was micromanaged to a point were he had only 2 bad decisions left.

:ph34r: CL

Edited December 10, 2008 by charlielima

[+Jarhead1 27]

Yeah, to either A. Punch out, or B. Ride it into the ground.

[+Typhoid 231]

OK I'll Say It. The young gentleman was micromanaged to a point were he had only 2 bad decisions left.

:ph34r: CL

 

precisely

[+Fates 63]

Not quite the Great Santini, but he was left with two bad decisions.

[WarlordATF 1]

A very sad situation all around, I feel for the man who lost his family, but i also feel for the Pilot who has to live with knowing that people were killed by his accident. I am sure he did everything he could to ditch in an uninhabited area but without engines todays jet fighters become bricks with wings and there is not much he could have done.

 

Like i said, a sad day for both familys, my prayers are with them.

Edited December 12, 2008 by WarlordATF

[charlielima 328]

Not quite the Great Santini, but he was left with two bad decisions.

 

My first thought about the report of a USMC fighter down in the economy was the end of the Great Santini. And of course the lack of airspeed and altitude, usually results in a scenario where one won't even have to participate in the decision making process to manage risk or have an effect on the outcome. The 2 survivors are in for some tuff times.

:ph34r: CL

[+Typhoid 231]

some of the same questions raised here being asked in open forums;

 

-----------------

 

Norfolk Virginian-Pilot

December 22, 2008

 

Questions Remain In San Diego Jet Crash That Killed Four

 

By Elliot Spagat and Michael R. Blood, Associated Press

 

LOS ANGELES--Two weeks after a Marine Corps plane slammed into a San Diego residential area, killing four people, questions have arisen about the decision to direct the hobbled fighter over homes to an inland airfield. A nearby base offered a route across open water.

 

The cause of the fiery Dec. 8 crash is being investigated. Military officials have depicted a chain of events in which first one engine failed on the F/A-18D Hornet - and then the second quit while the pilot was trying to reach a landing spot.

 

However, the rarity of the double engine failure hasn't dampened speculation that the deaths of four members of one family might have been averted. The pilot ejected safely.

 

Marine generals have defended the choice to send the Hornet to Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, taking it over the University City neighborhood. The crash there incinerated two homes, damaged three others and killed four members of one family.

 

The Miramar base is ringed by freeways and bordered on its western end by thickly packed residential areas that include a high school.

 

Less than 10 miles away, the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado sits at the tip of a peninsula. The flight path from the south crosses San Diego Bay.

 

"Why not go to North Island?" asked Louis Rodolico, who lives near Miramar.

 

Retired Navy Cmdr. Rick Ramirez, who lives near Miramar, said at a forum last week that the pilot could have easily flown to North Island, but it would have been an inconvenience for Marine maintenance crews to retrieve the crippled aircraft.

 

Military officials said that after the first engine faltered, Miramar was a straight shot and that going to North Island would have required more engine thrust.

 

However, F/A-18D Hornets can fly with one engine, and dual engine failures are rare.

 

That leaves questions about how much consideration was given to sending the pilot to North Island. And was a runway available?

 

The amount of fuel on the jet, weather, the pilot's experience and the aircraft's ability to fly with malfunctioning equipment would all be factors in determining where to go in a flight emergency.

 

A paucity of information has made it difficult to assess the call made that day.

 

Nothing has been disclosed about where and when the problem with the first engine started. The military hasn't identified the aircraft's position when the decision was made to go to Miramar, or where the closest landing strip was when that decision was made.

[+Dave 2,322]

You know what kills me? All the 2nd guessers....they did what they felt was right at the time. NO ONE can predict a DOUBLE engine failure. (or a single one for that matter). They did what they had to do and I am sure there was no negligence.

[+Typhoid 231]

You know what kills me? All the 2nd guessers....they did what they felt was right at the time. NO ONE can predict a DOUBLE engine failure. (or a single one for that matter). They did what they had to do and I am sure there was no negligence.

 

Not quite. I don't agree.

 

I agree that there is a lot of second guesing and that generally, I do not like to delve into that or tolerate it by others.

 

But I have flown in that oparea, and was based both at North Island and Miramar in years past. I also went single-engined out there and went into San Clemente Island rather than continue in to North Island. I have been there, in W-291, in very similar circumstances. And I also went singe-engine in some other very uncomfortable circumstances in another locale.

 

That is why I immediately questioned the rationale for sending an aircraft with an engine out, critical emergency over and past a perfectly good airfield (North Island) to go the extra 11 miles to Miramar. He could have made it easily into North Island - but when he needed another 11 miles, he only had 10 1/2 in his airplane.

 

Yes - a dual engine failure is an unusual occurence. So is a single-engine failure. The procedures we had for diverting to the nearest suitable airfield were learned and relearned in blood and drilled into all of us for decades. The rule for us in the past was that if you had a critical emergency or were short on fuel - you didn't pass up a perfectly good divert field in order to press on to home base. When things are going bad in your airplane - you get it on the ground as soon as possible and figure out what else is wrong at your leisure. Pressing on to homeplate has cost a lot of aircraft and the lives of many in years past - and just cost the lives of four more.

 

Yes, it was an accident and people on the scene made their decisions based on the best info they had at the time. That was a bad decision and we (the USN and USMC) owe a solid and well conducted accident investigation. That investigation absolutely should not be conducted in the open press and on forums like this one. I merely pointed out that others have asked the same question that I did above and it is one of those items being focused in the investigation and in the open forums where this is being discussed by the Navy (itself a very unusual practice).

 

I, like you, will wait for the accident investigation to be completed and for whatever portion of it to be made public. But nothing has changed from my initial impression on the day it happened when I looked where the ship was that he came in from, where he crashed, and where he could have made it in safely with time and distance to spare. I ask this out of professional curiousity - not Sunday morning quarterbacking.

 

and no offense taken or intended. just very concerned about this.

[+Dave 2,322]

No offense taken Andy but this whole thing has been "Sunday morning quarterbacked" from the start. (From a non military stand point, you bring up good points but you have been there as well so your concerns are more valid) It just irritates me to no end. Its another case of the military being crucified without knowledge of the facts. No matter what the investigation reveals, in the public's eyes, it will still be the US military's fault.

[+Typhoid 231]

No offense taken Andy but this whole thing has been "Sunday morning quarterbacked" from the start. (From a non military stand point, you bring up good points but you have been there as well so your concerns are more valid) It just irritates me to no end. Its another case of the military being crucified without knowledge of the facts. No matter what the investigation reveals, in the public's eyes, it will still be the US military's fault.

 

you are quite correct wrt to the press coverage. Pretty lousy, but then that's the norm.

 

The key question is where was the plane when the first engine was lost. That is the key piece of info which is so far lacking. On that is my only query on this sad event. It may turn out to be that Miramar was the closest and most suitable field. Until that is clearly identified, questions will remain. So until the actual accident report is release - I shall comment no more.

[serverandenforcer 33]

you are quite correct wrt to the press coverage. Pretty lousy, but then that's the norm.

 

The key question is where was the plane when the first engine was lost. That is the key piece of info which is so far lacking. On that is my only query on this sad event. It may turn out to be that Miramar was the closest and most suitable field. Until that is clearly identified, questions will remain. So until the actual accident report is release - I shall comment no more.

 

 

Typhoid, one of my fellow security forces members is married to one of the maintenance personell for that F-18. They said that the jet was feet dry, coming towards Miramar before it lost the first engine. I don't know how close it was, but from what I heard, it wasn't too far away when it started having problems. So perhaps going to Miramar might have been the best option for the pilot. That's all I know right now, and I don't know how true all of that is. But it's coming from the folks who were directly involved with the aircraft.

[+Typhoid 231]

Typhoid, one of my fellow security forces members is married to one of the maintenance personell for that F-18. They said that the jet was feet dry, coming towards Miramar before it lost the first engine. I don't know how close it was, but from what I heard, it wasn't too far away when it started having problems. So perhaps going to Miramar might have been the best option for the pilot. That's all I know right now, and I don't know how true all of that is. But it's coming from the folks who were directly involved with the aircraft.

 

 

good to know. That is a very, very different take on what happened as compared to what was originally being reported. If so - then this guy was clearly stuck with zero options and stayed with it right down to the last second.

 

That is a pretty horrendous multiple failure scenario of his plane coming apart on him. It will be very interesting to see just what came apart.

[charlielima 328]

If he was feet dry when he lost his first engine Miramar makes since to me. I wonder how many times while in the simulator he lost an engine landing and stayed commited to the same destination. I bet every time. Thats some strongly reinforced Recognition Primed Decision Making. I'm glad to see those involved in Marine Air are holding together on this.

:ph34r: CL