Over Flanders Fileds Phase 3

[Bandy 3]

FastCargo,

 

I understand that the other OFF3 thread was heating up, and that is too damn bad.

 

BUT this is a WWI Flight Sim sub-forum, you shouldn't stop this topic from being discussed in a mature manner. So if you don't mind I'm starting a new thread since there is still much to discuss about the topic, and I'm sure other people want to track other opinions separate from forums dedicated to the sim itself. Hopefully people will be more civilized in this thread, and provide objective opinions.

 

 

JUST MY 2 cents worth

A little background. As far as WWI flight sims go, my first was the original Red Baron in the 80's. I missed out on RB3D while in grad school and postdoc , but got back in with FE in late Nov 2006 (bought all 3rdWire sims since), have flown in OFF2, and now have purchased OFF3 and have been running it for 2 weeks or so. So take the following as you will... BTW, I haven't drunk the CoolAid

 

My aging, but no slouch, system specs:

WinXP

2.66 GHz quad core Intel Xeon (2006 "vintage")

nVidia Quadro 4500 512 MB vRAM (basically equivalent to nVidia GeForce 7800 GTX 512 MB)

4 GB RAM 667

TIR4, CH pedals, Logitech Wingman ForceFeedback stick

 

Right up front. Was OFF3 worth $59???

At this point I'm both satisfied and disappointed for the following reasons (not in any order):

 

1) OFF3 looks and flies great down low, something I find is sorely missing in FE. You actually can crash into trees, have your wing tips and undercarriage ripped off by branches, etc. You can hedge-hop and enjoy it! Use trees to evade and enemy or ground fire.

 

2) OFF3 has a better damage model. When your engine is hit, it isn't all or nothing, there can be a gradual decline in power, or immediate effects.

When your ailerons, rudder, elevator get hit, they don't immediately fall off like leaves in the fall, but there is a more gradual progression of damage effect affecting the handling.

I have been hit in the gas tank by a near miss AAA shrapnel and lost all my fuel. I have been hit in the gas tank by bullets and went down in flames...

 

3) The terrain is a matter of taste. I find OFF3 more hilly and random than the repeating tiles of FE, but in other ways less realistic, more "postcard". BUT I cannot run OFF3 at max settings, or even high settings --this is a disappointment given that my system specs ain't all that bad. I can run FE pretty much maxed out and only occasionally drop below 30 fps, never below 20. OFF3 the fps jumps all over the place, from 40's to 20's to teens just while looking around. There is no apparent reason why fps drop, such as multiple a/c in furball.

 

4) While OFF3 has some really nice realism, the Lewis does not reload. Certain a/c have an animation for it to pivot down to the cockpit, like the N17, but you don't need to do it. It keeps firing till your out of ammo. I understand gun jams are introduced, but I haven't had one, and not sure if you can unjam them once it happens.

 

5) The cockpits are basically equivalent, or up for grabs. FE has better 3rdwire cockpits, OFF3 for the most part has better cockpits than the 3rd party a/c (with some notable exceptions).

 

6) In OFF3 YOU CAN BE THE REAR GUNNER!!! However, as far as I can tell, when you switch out the stick for the gun, the AI doesn't fly your plane all that well. Hopefully they'll work on that.

 

7) OFF3 has more seasonal variety, and has more weather variety including wind!!! as stock (there have been good 3rd party advancements for 3rdwire sims).

 

8) OFF3 missions are less predictable. I've been jumped unexpectedly a few times while taking off on a long range mission with bombs and full fuel tank. Waypoint 4 to 5 isn't always where the action is...

 

9) OFF3 you can reduce the amount of fuel you carry, and it affects the handling significantly. Short range missions in the N11 are a lot of fun, long range not so much with a full tank.

 

10) The FE flight model gives more feel to the aircraft, I agree with Peter01 on that, but I am unsure what is more true to the era. Stalls are better in Fe.

 

11) The AI are quite aggressive in both games once in combat, but the FE AI are more "slippery" and pull some amazing manuevres on you, though I've fought aces in OFF3 and they are a challenge. HOWEVER, for some damn reason, the OFF3 enemy can act more "real" in other situations. For instance, while approaching our ground objective (4 N11's), a group of 6 EIII's approached us at equal altitude, and turned away to avoid the confrontation. I have no idea why, but it was a very "real" moment.

 

12) The FE targeting is better, though you can only target one object at a time, which I don't like. I prefer a box than a text label, just less distracting. In OFF3 it is all or nothing, you text label all aircraft and ground objects (even smoke from houses gets a label, sheez!).

 

13) The clincher for me though, and why I shelled out the 59 sheckles, is that the OFF3 campaign beats FE hands down. More choices, more squadrons, better filled out rosters, etc. You have to fill out a simple flight report to TRY to get credit for kills, it ain't guaranteed.

 

14) However, OFF3 has some bugs. In a flight of 3 I knew the names of my wingies (you have to to fill out the report--see above). One of them crashed in the ocean off Dunkirk for no apparent reason, but when the mission ended and I started a new one, he was still there and was flying the next day. Guess he was rescued???

 

14) OFF3 has some bugs, did I mention that? It ain't perfect, but neither was FE out of the blocks. The developers appear willing to provide patches, AND IN FACT A PATCH WAS POSTED BEFORE THE GAME GOT TO PEOPLE.

 

Bottom line.

From the last thread I mentioned I like to support peoples efforts and hard work. I am able to do this without hardship, and I felt this was a noble effort on the part of the OFF3 team. I was expecting a smoother operating game for $59 than what I got, but perhaps my install isn't as free of problems as others' experiences. Given my mature but still strong system specs, I should have better fps on higher settings than I get. THIS IS VERY DISAPPOINTING.

 

OFF3 may be based on a dead game engine, but you don't get a sense of that. many aspects of the game are easily adjusted within the interface or config file. FE is almost infinitely moddable, if you know what your doing. One of the game developers mentioned to me that if enough money is generated, they are considering upgrading to a new engine. So it appears they will re-invest at least some of the earnings. Time will tell.

 

FE will appeal to some for other reasons, and OFF3 will for others. I like them both for different reasons. The perfect WWI sim would combine the best of FE and OFF3, of that I have no doubt.

Edited January 29, 2009 by B Bandy RFC

[+DoctorQuest 107]

Nice summary.

 

Thanks for taking the time to fill us in on your experiences.

[FastCargo 412]

I have no problem with threads on OFF3. But I will not have them degenerate into name calling, shilling and bad behavior. That's what happened on the last thread and that's why it was closed.

 

Thanks for the informal review. Very interesting and fills in a lot of questions that I had.

 

FC

[JediMaster 451]

I think the move to a new engine would be great for a "Phase 4" and/or "OFF 2". A 3d model is a 3d model. A texture is a texture. Things like FMs and DMs and such may have to be redone from scratch, but it's not ALL from scratch.

 

I think the inexplicable slowdowns you experience are a side effect of taking the CFS3 engine and trying to do all this great stuff with it.

I can't remember exactly what PC specs I had when CFS3 came out, maybe a 1.8GHz Athlon and a GF4 Ti4600? Anyway, it was built a bit "future proof" so that 3 years later our updated PCs ran it far better...stock. When you put more polygons and larger textures into it, though, inefficiencies from the code rear their head. Unlike the Free Falcon people, these modders have no access to CFS3 source code to tweak things.

I fully expect you could have a newer engine with more detail perform better than CFS3 if it knows how to take advantage of things like shaders and multithreading.

[+Stary 2,426]

B BANDY RFC,

 

thanks for posting, you have answered some of my questions and now I have better picture of it

[Gr.Viper 131]

I think OFF requirements are similar if not higher than those of LOMAC. But OFF slowdowns could be just a warning... RoF developers claim that their flight modeling eats CPUs for breakfast.

 

I think the move to a new engine would be great for a "Phase 4" and/or "OFF 2"

FE?

[godzilla1985 0]

I agree with FastCargo closing that last thread as it did go from a sprited exchange to starting a down hill slide. Like CA_Stary and Jedi Master the choice of CFS3 as the engine has caused me to hold up purchase to see if the waters safe if you know what I mean. While MS does make some excellent civilian flight sims, their Combat series were very lacking and at times down right wonky, like a Dr Jeckel/ Mr. Hyde type of thing. What I would like too see is more post like yours B Bandy RFC, commenting on whats good and whats not so good, and allowing the purchaser to make up their own minds based upon information like you posted. Unfortunately I'm starting to see "new" posters popping up at other forums, posting only in the OFF3 sub forums, writting personal reviews on how great OFF3 is . Post like yours B Bandy RFC move myself closer to purchasing OFF3 then those other ever will

[Bandy 3]

Informal Review Take II:

 

Well, I've posted a few times over on the OFF3 home forum some issues I've experienced, and I have to admit the OFF team is on top of their posts. They are doing their best to support their product, if loosing some hair on the way. The threads are flying as fast, if not faster, than when FE came out in 2006...

 

Anyways, with some others' posts and OFF team advice provided, I managed to get better fps on my rig (see above) and pushed my graphics sliders up a notch. I've got it running at 40 to 50 fps regularly at about mid-settings (mostly 3's on a scale of 1 to 5), with drops into the mid 20's at challenging times. Acceptable for now. Waiting for a patch, or a better GPU, to perhaps boost it.

 

I've had as much fun with it over the last few days as when FE, and then FE + EP came out, not to mention Peter01's various FM's (that is memorable as well). It is, just, different. A different take on WWI FM's, campaign, etc.

 

Don't be fooled by pronouncements of "realism" though, that is as subjective as CokeTM vs. PepsiTM

Nothing derogatory meant here, at all, it is up to your taste.

 

IMHO, if you are a fanatic of WWI sims, then try it if you can afford it just for the change of scene and challenge. I will still go back to all the others in time.

 

Sincere thank you for your comments.

[catch 81]

Thanks Bandy for your measured and civil review. It is refreshing to see an honest warts and all take on things, without (just perhaps lol) the misguided passion of a chastened catch who offers his apology to those he offended. I hope the discussion, and possible further reviews, continue in a civil manner.

[shredward 12]

Parky, one of the guys over at Sim Outhouse posted this vid;

This clip is best viewed at 100% of it's original size)

http://www.simgamers.net/downloads/BHAH.wmv

It's a big download, but it gives a pretty good impression of flying Over Flanders Fields.

Cheers,

shredward

[+peter01 2]

Haven't had the chance to fly OFF Ph3 much yet, but initial impressions are that it is very good....and a major improvement over Ph 2, in many many ways.

 

And indeed apart from the view system, the FMs, and perhaps the slow graphics, it really doesn't seem like CFS3 at all....one of my major gripes.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone interested in ww1 flying.....there won't be another like this with the content, immersion, and detail for a long time.

 

It is worth the money. Actually, its a bargain.

Edited February 2, 2009 by peter01

[Tarl 0]

Hi all, my first post. I was an avid flight sim guy long ago and have been away for some time. I love the WWI era and didn't really think about getting back into it till I read about OFF and what was supposed to be "Knights of the Sky" (even thou back in the day for us old guys, there already was a WWI Flight Sim by that name released by Microprose prob 20 years ago....and it had online play also. :)

 

The new "Knights" or Rise of Flight, looks pretty good....but in the mean time I was turned on to OFF Phase 2, which in my book, even thou ruff around the edges, has given me hours of pleasure. Hec, I never liked or even played CFS3 much, but now with OFF, it becomes a whole new game and I'm playing it daily. I will order my "phase 3" or OFF: BHAH here shortly. I haven't seen BHAH (phase 3) yet, but I have read from people that have and sure it's initial engine my be CFS3, but to me it looks much, much better than that game ever dreamed of being. I will spend the $50 and look forward to many more hours of pleasure with this sim.

 

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to post. <salute>

Tarl

Edited February 7, 2009 by Tarl

[shredward 12]

Parky has posted another vid, this taken while driving a Spud...

 

http://www.simgamers.net/downloads/spadscanturn.wmv

 

 

Cheers,

shredward

[Bleddyn 0]

I appreciate the review very much. I am quite happy playing FE but I do play alot offline so the fuller campaign mode in OFF has me very intrigued. The more we could hear about that the better.

 

I have played most flight sims and many many other kinds of games. I have never recaptured that feeling of involvement I got from my old original Red Baron that came on 5 1/4" floppys

[jayo 0]

Well ive been flying BHaH solid for two weeks in campaign mode and the product is stunning to say the least,as immersive as it gets (imo).

BHaH does have that "magic" touch that im still trying to pin down,is it that all other flights i encounter are on their own historically correct mission/patrols?........could be.Or is it the kill claim one has to fill out after a flight,which requires a description of aircraft type/circumstances and a witness sig?.......maybe.

Or the sheer dynamism of the ever changing scenery with the seasons and more impressively,the shifting front-line complete with the actual battles e.g Arras etc?.....definately!

 

Worth the dollar?.......yup.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Now that we have a dedicated OFF forum, I am sure you guys will find us all very helpful if you don't yet have, but are planning to purchase OFF BHaH

 

I have been a huge fan...in with it since Phase 1 (still got it somewhere)

 

I wasn't massively keen on Phase 2..as I thought it was a bit dark and dismal

 

Phase 3 however is sublime!!!...... Lot's of people don't like the idea of OFF due to it's 'marriage' to the CFS3 we all know and love (ahem)

 

But take my word for it chaps!.... If p1 was a marriage... P2 was an affair....and P3 is the Divorce!!!

[Firecage 1]

Thanks for the info and opinions on the pack. THis is always great to have for those that may be interested in getting this.

 

I am kind of interesed in seeing more player made videos real soon to see what it looks like for most players.

 

Maybe a movie including the battle reports and such to get a view of that part of the game and the mission builder.

For me its mostly the cash out put... since I didn't expect CFS3 to be worth a dang I never got it. SO now I would need ot put up 20$+ for CFS3 and the $50 for the pack. $70 bucks is more than my interest so far... still watching tho.

 

Tried to look around the web for a real cheap CFS3 but nothing yet.

 

I do love the fact of the mission reports and the builder.

 

1 Do you feel the FMs are realistic or not>

2 How does the weather affect the flying>

3 More input in this graphic FPS thing if you can.

 

 

Thanks for any and all movies and input...

 

[+MK2 12]

Thanks for the info and opinions on the pack. THis is always great to have for those that may be interested in getting this.

 

I am kind of interesed in seeing more player made videos real soon to see what it looks like for most players.

 

Maybe a movie including the battle reports and such to get a view of that part of the game and the mission builder.

For me its mostly the cash out put... since I didn't expect CFS3 to be worth a dang I never got it. SO now I would need ot put up 20$+ for CFS3 and the $50 for the pack. $70 bucks is more than my interest so far... still watching tho.

 

Tried to look around the web for a real cheap CFS3 but nothing yet.

 

I do love the fact of the mission reports and the builder.

 

1 Do you feel the FMs are realistic or not>

2 How does the weather affect the flying>

3 More input in this graphic FPS thing if you can.

 

 

Thanks for any and all movies and input...

 

 

1. Yes

2. There are wind gust and incredible weather effects including rain whipping down on you.

3. If you want all the eye candy you need a strong system but it has 5 different graphic settings that should adjust to whatever your PC can do.

 

 

The offline campaign engine is the best I have ever seen in any sim (I have been combat flight simming since the mid 1980s ). You can start any year for any squadron, fly with and against over 1000 historical aces (that's a thousand in game!). Your kills are kept track of, your squadron mates kills are kept track off. You see daily news for the day you are experiencing in the campaign, you have promotions , awards and you even have to fill out a combat report of your misison and attempt to get the kill confirmed.

 

The OFF campaign manager is a masater piece worthy loooking into.

[Dutch_P47M 9]

I have both: FE (first release) and OFF (ph2 & 3). I can give no opinion about FE+ex.pack because I do not have this version. Here a additional remarks on the FE<>OFF3 comparison started by BBandy.

 

Advantage FE simple Graphic adjustment <> Disadvantage OFF3 complex graphic adjustments.

I think the biggest problem in OFF3 is the adjustment of the game graphics in the Cfs3Config file. This is more a less a misterybox. Lot of the technical topics in the old SimOHforum were asking about graphic adjustments. There is also no manual which can explain what all these adjustments in Cfs3config do, at least I can not find it from the official Cfs3 side.

 

Besides the graphic issue OFF is a good playable game, without the bugs that always blincked in OFF2.

 

As already mentioned by some forummembers the price was high but is now reduced. So for $55,-- it is possible to play OFF3 and CFS3.

[Dutch_P47M 9]

forgot something: the addons (planes, skins, campaigns etc),

• lots of them for FE,
  

• no real addons for OFF3, maybe the OFF developers are counteracting agains the non official addons???
  

 

But dispite all this OFF3, is a great game and please lets make things clear here; I'm not give you CAF-readers any advice of what game to buy, because I do not have FE+ex.pack only the FE1918.  

Edited March 17, 2009 by Dutch_P47M

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I do not have FE+ex.pack only the FE1918.  

 

You ain't missing much!

[JediMaster 451]

you even have to fill out a combat report of your misison and attempt to get the kill confirmed.

 

 

So, is this then the first combat sim to feature something every real pilot has to deal with? Interminable paperwork??!?!

 

Call me time-challenged, but I'd just as soon have everything a real pilot has to do OUT of the cockpit done for me. I don't want to do a preflight inspection or fill out a list of problems with the plane for the crew chief either...

[Parky 8]

The OFF team has you covered. You can choose to completely bypass the claims routine via an option in the Workshop settings. In fact, the last couple of patches have made the game so adjustable to personal tastes, you'd have to be incredibly fussy not to be able to find a comfort zone. Something for everyone. No matter how easy or how hard you want things to be, the levels of difficulty can be changed with the click of a mouse. If you're a fan of the genre at all, you owe it to yourself to at least consider adding BHH to your collection.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Parky

[Thumper41 0]

That's the nice thing about OFF, Jedi, you can choose the level of realism you want. For those that want the "real" experience, including filing detailed claims that may or may not get confirmed, it's in there. And for those who just want to enjoy the flying and fighting, you can set the claims to automatic and let the computer take care of it for you. There are so many settings in the OFF Manager that you can tinker with, you can basically set up the sim to your liking. I like some things realistic (guns, fuel, landings, damage), but I still use warp mode to get from one way point to the next because, like you, I just don't have the time to fly the entire mission in real time. If you haven't tried it yet, you should consider it -- it is well worth the price, and there is a sale on right now so it is even a better deal.

 

Thumper

[catch 81]

Go on take the plunge Jedi . Only $39.99 now . What are you waiting for ?