Vertical takeoff with Harrier - is it possible?

[+malibu43 142]

Not meaning to hijack this thread (well, I guess I do..), but this airplane has to be my least favorite of all time - it should NEVER have been purchased by the U.S. Marine Corps - it's vertical ability is zero with any type of reasonable weapons loadout, it blows out a HUGE plume of exhaust which is a magnet to anything IR-guided (check out losses during Desert Storm - it had to be withdrawn to behind the lines to keep every one from getting shot down), it's slow, carries next to nothing for ordnance, it's accident rate has been horrendous since it's difficult and dangerous to fly low and slow - and on and on.

 

It's great to amuse the kiddies at airshows, but the Marine Corps should have kept the Phantom to drop iron and fire on the bad guys when it was really needed. I actually know someone who was on the development team for the AV-8 for the Marine Corps, and we don't get along well.

 

I have never even flown it in the TW series....

 

Mike D.

 

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, and you've obviously already acknowledged that this was just your opinion, but...

 

One of my best friends and the best man at may wedding was in the Marines and was part of the first group to head into Iraq in 2003. Once after he was back, we were talking about something or other, and he got on the subject of Harriers. I'm pretty sure he would kiss any Harrier pilot if he got the chance. He talked about Harrier's like they were a Godsend over there.

 

He specifically mentioned walking by a couple Harriers parked in a field outside of a town (or farm or whatever) one day. The pilots were relaxing under the wings in the shade. A couple minutes later, when he was further down the road, he heard the engines spool up and next thing he knew the Harriers roared overhead to take care of business in town. They definitely took advantage of the ability for VTOL.

 

He also mentioned something about a Harrier hovering and simultaneously firing rockets at an enemy position, but I think he must have been running on too little sleep...

Edited March 3, 2009 by malibu43

[Slartibartfast 153]

If your after a real life book to read MPPD by a real harrier driver there's an excellent one by Commander 'Sharkey' Ward called Sea Harrier over the Falklands. He flew and got 3 kills while down there in 1982 so I would think he know's his stuff.

 

As far as I am concerned there are pro's and con's with all aircraft and yes manpad's can cause an issue with a Harrier. But in air combat as the USMC 'bless em' they did ACM against F/A-18's in the Phillipines and they beat the F/A-18 in a knife fight more often than not. Also there is a report that's in the book above that Harriers in a knife fight would beat an F-15 more than not as well. It got to the point I think that the F-15 drivers would prefer to fight the aggressor squadrons... which the Harrier's beat as well I dont have the hard data as the books in storage but it's there.

 

Also I would like to thank the Harrier community in general for getting me out of trouble and not in the game... I still owe a couple of bottles of scotch... and as to the comment balancing an Elephant on a needle yeah thats what I have heard as well... tends to focus the mind... Anyway enough remembering time to get sim flying....

[+guyran 13]

Only after a lot of practice and with 75% of fuel loaded, I could takeoff vertically with the AV-8A. I couldn't do the VTOL without using the wing leveler at all, due to instability.

 

Here is the link to a short video clip in YouTube of my VTOL.

 

 

 

Can someone make a similar demo clip of VTOL in WOE without using the wing leveler?

[+guyran 13]

Sorry, this is the correct link.

 

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

Just a matter of try and error, nice vid ;-)

[+bobrock 15]

After the last patch the AV-8 has became more unstable during vertical operations. You have to fly it veeeery smoothly.

Anyway here are my 2 cents:

- Don't land/take off vertically if your overall weight exceeds 18/19.000 lbs. You simply can't, the Harrier is not a rocket

- In RL pilots avoid pure vertical operations, since the engines can ingest dust from the tarmac during the hovering phase. At least this is what I read

 

To make a good vertical landing you have to become a master in orienting the nozzles, give enough power to keep the plane airborne and keep it in balance with the stick. Check the read me file in my AV-8B, hope it helps.

Start practicing take offs without ordnance and the minimum fuel, hover around the field, pick a spot and land there.

It's a just matter of practice practice practice

[+guyran 13]

No matter how much I try, I couldn't complete the VTOL without using the wing leveler.

 

Is it true that in real, non virtual, Harrier the stabilization during VTOL is achieved by computer controlled fly by wire, which is the equivalent of using the wing leveler in the sim?

Edited March 4, 2009 by guyran

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

what is a wing leveler ingame?! never saw this feature???

[Slartibartfast 153]

what is a wing leveler ingame?! never saw this feature???

 

Dont ask me never seen it either... my wing leverler is me being delicate on the stick...

[Gr.Viper 131]

Just made 2 fully manual VTOLs on GR.1 with hard FM. Possible, but requires some skill. Never try to hover high - you won't be able to balance it long enough to descend at a safe rate.

 

Wind leveler - Shift+A, I think

[Slartibartfast 153]

Just made 2 fully manual VTOLs on GR.1 with hard FM. Possible, but requires some skill. Never try to hover high - you won't be able to balance it long enough to descend at a safe rate.

 

Wind leveler - Shift+A, I think

 

The high hovering is due to the aircraft hovering out of ground effect but not sure that ground effect is in Wings over not sure if wind is modelled to be honest all I know is that hovering is very good at practising your fine control of aircraft...

[Anthony W. 0]

Deacon211 was a member here and was a AV-8B Pilot in VMA-211. He and Kreelin came up with the Original FM for the AV-8C Add-on. He once told Me that Vertical Landing was like balancing an Elephant on the end of an Needle.....

 

Yeah, I'd believe that. Only, this elephant has saddle bags with hundreds of pounds of av gas sloshing around, and big guns and weapons that may still be attached.

[Spinners 15,985]

I'm gobsmacked at the rant against the Harrier and would ask why, if it is apparently so poor, did the USMC buy more advanced versions after trying the AV-8A? Indeed, when the FRG/UK/US disbanded the Tripartite Evaluation Squadron in the mid-1960's each nation had the option to buy their three Kestrel aircraft back but the USA bought all eight of the surviving nine.

 

Coincidentally, I'm halfway through the Harrier chapter in Bill Gunston's "Attack Aircraft Of The West" and I'm coming away with a much better appreciation of this groundbreaking design.

[+SkippyBing 8]

Is it true that in real, non virtual, Harrier the stabilization during VTOL is achieved by computer controlled fly by wire, which is the equivalent of using the wing leveler in the sim

 

No. QuintiQ have a first generation twin stick Harrier that has fly-by-wire controls in the front cockpit that removes the need for a nozzle control which has done a lot of work for the JSF programme, but all other Harriers have conventional controls.

[zmatt 2]

The wing leveler is shift A. It is really helpful for Nav. Say for one reason or another you want to fly at a constant altitude, to avoid sam's or something, Auto Pilot flies to the altitude of the waypoints. But with the wing leveler you can align yourself to the right heading and turn it on so you can fly hands free to the way point at whatever altitude you want. It is also helpful for doing those really low runs so you don't plow into the ground. I also use it when using phoenix's on the tomcat at really long range. I want to keep the target painted to give the missile the best shot so I have her fly striaght and level. Auto Pilot would take it off bore sight and i don't trust the FM to fly with no hands.

[exhausted 55]

Mike,

I do respect Your opinion. It's a matter of taste. But as a CAS Platform, If You were a Grunt on the Ground, You'd love this Bird. I was an Ordnanceman on AV-8A/C's, TAV-8A's and AV-8B's from 1980 until 1992. The "Original" Harrier, The AV-8A/C was a "Concept" Aircraft until the Marine Corps decided to make three Squadrons Combat Operational and one Trainning Squadron by 1974. True, The A-C Harrier had it's shortcommings, But one would have to consider that it was the worlds first V/STOL Aircraft. In 1980, I was in VMA-231 when they set the World Record in "Turn Around" Time. One fully loaded, (Guns too) and fueled in just four and three quaters Minutes. For the Grunts on the ground, Time is lives.

The second generation, The AV-8B, Was a marked inprovment over the "A-C's". More Weapons, more effective Gun, Better Avonics to take some of the workload off the Pilots. Upgraded engine. Easier to maintain. But still used the British Aerospace Airframe Concept.

All this leads to this.......If this wasn't done, Then the V/STOL version of the F-35 would never come to light.....It's the Learning Curve.

 

As for V/STOL Landings and Takeoffs, VMAT-203 Eagles based at MCAS Cherry Point, North Carolina, Is the Marine Corps Transistion Tranning Squadron for all Harrier Pilots. They require that Pilots do a (one) Vertical Takeoff and Landing every Day. The rerason is it keeps the Pilots sharp as to the Cockpit workload in doing such Manuvers. Also, the Pilots will need to preform these tasks while aboard LHA-LPH Type Carriers.

Granted, under "Full Load" Conditions, VTOL is not the prefered method. STOL is more preferred. Many of the Members here have touched on the reasons why. But "Full Load" VTOL is still practiced. Workload on Pilots durning this is intencive. Many, I recall, returned dripping with sweat from such Takeoffs and Landings.

 

Just My two Pennys.....

 

Semper Fi,

 

331KillerBee

 

Semper Fi!

 

F402-RR-408B mech here.The B is a highly capable aircraft and has bailed a lot of grunts' butts out of bad situations. Also, remember the "Highway of Death" out of Kuwait? Yeah, that's mostly A-10s and AV-8Bs.

 

The Harrier is still vunerable to IR SAMs firing perpendicular because of the wierd exhaust situation, but most people don't realize that hot exhaust only comes out of the rear two nozzles and the front two are just cold nozzles blowing excess air from the LP compressor.

[+331Killerbee 840]

Semper Fi!

 

F402-RR-408B mech here.The B is a highly capable aircraft and has bailed a lot of grunts' butts out of bad situations. Also, remember the "Highway of Death" out of Kuwait? Yeah, that's mostly A-10s and AV-8Bs.

 

The Harrier is still vunerable to IR SAMs firing perpendicular because of the wierd exhaust situation, but most people don't realize that hot exhaust only comes out of the rear two nozzles and the front two are just cold nozzles blowing excess air from the LP compressor.

 

Semper Fi, Exhausted....

 

Boy, I do know about the Cold Nozzles all to well. When in the Arming Areas, while arming I-TER's on the inboard Stations of the "B", This would place a person right next to the Cold Nozzles while the Bird is turning. This happend also while arming the Gun. But it's them Hot Nozzles as You mentioned, I'll never forget that smell of JP5 burning off on those 402's......

 

Semper Fi!

 

331KillerBee

[Hokum 0]

One or two things, my friends dad was an RAF engineer, and I've talked at length about aircraft (he does RC stuff now), and the Harriers. The main detractors said "it could carry a packet of fags the length of a cricket field". He said it carried a useful bomb load further and with better accuracy than artillery. Plus he mentioned in normal flight the GR.3's were smokeless? Also that tornado pilots avoided them as they didn't like being made fools of by the harrier pilots sense of humour...

 

As for the ability to work from clearings and car showrooms, the VTOL, STOVL ability are fantastic in urban warfare and COIN.