HR 45

[gumpy 7]

HR 45 Blair Holt Firearms Act Of 2009

[GwynO 16]

I wish we could have that law in the UK!! Seems about perfect for us, except two things that jump out as unfair, I don't drive, does that mean I can't have a gun? Secondly $25 just to fill in a form and get it processed. I think that cost should be absorbed somehow through tax, maybe an extra penny in the pound on ammunition or something like that.

 

I can see this isn't going to go down well in America though! Oh dear.

[eraser_tr 29]

Well this is moronic. If you look up the back story, the person the bill was named after was killed by a gun that was considered illegal under existing laws. So what difference would a new (overbearing and unconstitutional, from the biggest liberal here) law make?

 

Actually we should simply ban all guns period. Then we can all go back to carrying swords around. It'll be just like World of Warcraft but real!

[+Brain32 265]

I'm sorry but I don't see the point here I don't know how did the previous law look like but this says that you can have a gun IF:

1. It is registered

2. You are fingerprinted

3. You have DriverLicense

4. You supply your Social Security

5. You pass phisical and mental evaluation

6. Change of ownership must be reported

 

Now like I said I don't know what was the law before this one but this is like super-reasonable. I mean what were the requirements before? Did you have to be insane?

Who is not fingerprinted BTW? Don't you guys have to fingerprint your trigger finger when getting your ID?

[charlielima 328]

I own a:

"gun or 2"

wakisashi, cutlass, tomahawk, and a myriad of dangerous kitchen knives.

Unless I commit a crime with one of my implements in the economy its nobodies business what I have, especialy a government that takes half my paycheck every 2 weeks and wants more.

 

 

 

:ph34r: CL

[eraser_tr 29]

Well being fingerprinted and having a mental and physical evaluation are invasive. And how they have to be locked away from anyone under 18. Uh, I knew kids hunting before they were 10. requiring a drivers license excludes ALOT of people. It sounds reasonable in Europe because they have far tougher laws on gun control.

 

Previously it was just checks to make sure you had no criminal background and a waiting period so you couldn't just get a gun to go commit a crime the next day (which is no good because if you're in danger and need a gun immediately, you're screwed)

[GwynO 16]

Well being fingerprinted and having a mental and physical evaluation are invasive. And how they have to be locked away from anyone under 18. Uh, I knew kids hunting before they were 10. requiring a drivers license excludes ALOT of people. It sounds reasonable in Europe because they have far tougher laws on gun control.

 

Previously it was just checks to make sure you had no criminal background and a waiting period so you couldn't just get a gun to go commit a crime the next day (which is no good because if you're in danger and need a gun immediately, you're screwed)

 

Not necessarily, have you heard of a four winds canon? Not that I have made and tested several of them as proof of concept models cough cough. I agree in terms of sounding reasonable for Europeans given our much more limited firearms laws already, this would actually be a progressive step for many of us! I also agree that the requirement to drive a car is woefully unnecessary unless that part is only for drive by shooters. But the part about keeping out of children's reach presumably relates to unsupervised access rather than under responsible adult supervision?

 

I think the biggest stumbling block for a lot of people will be the clause about fingerprinting and physical/mental tests, many people tend to be suspicious of "them" saying they are mental, because they are part of this or that group for example, or not a supporter of some issue or other. I can sympathise with that given the Nazi abuse of laws allowing incarceration of the insane to put away dissidents, likewise in the Soviet Union. But I wouldn't worry about that at all in the USA or EU nations, then again it is the principle I suppose. It's a tough one that, let insane people get licenses too or no... hmmm Personally I would go with the law and if at some point the government did go Nazi, I'd rely on my own ways and means After all, no government on Earth outnumbers the people it represents, look at the roots of Karate, the Okanawan farmers practised smashing wooden planks to simulate smashing Samurai armour. In the event of repressive regimes, I am very much a believer in the spirit of people to stand up and use their ingenuity to overthrow "them".

[+Brain32 265]

It sounds reasonable in Europe because they have far tougher laws on gun control.

Yeah that's why I asked how it used to be...because here I can't legally posess a gun...at all...

[Jeremiah Weed 0]

requiring a drivers license excludes ALOT of people.

 

I don't like this bill at all, it is like stupid "hate crime" legislation. It isn't going to stop anything and going to be misused. But anyways, the actual bill says "State Issued ID" Since this is a 2nd or 3rd hand cometary it was interpreted as "Driver's License."

[+NeverEnough 78]

"Yeah that's why I asked how it used to be...because here I can't legally posess a gun...at all"

 

Pretty ironic, since the Springfield Armory XD pistols are designed and manufactured in Croatia.

 

Oh yea, Eraser is making me proud of him! He appears to be evolving more measured and reasonable intellectual positions on the social issues of the day.....

[FalconC45 162]

Well this law would probit gun ownership for disabled people like my self. I have 3 firearms and am saving money to get an wheelchair mounted shooting bench to help me shoot. If this passes, I won't be able to get another firearm because I don't drive and I would fail the physical part of the test. Although I think I'll pass the mental test.

 

I got a question though. I can't physically hold a firearm to fire but if I have an hardware device to help to hold it, would that make me pass the physical?

 

Falcon

[eraser_tr 29]

Nah! That's just because I'm an equal opportunity critic. Everything I used to complain about made me look more to the left, now complaining about stuff mostly on the left makes me look farther to the right. A hilariously named facebook group sums it up "Radically Moderate" for people with positions that don't line up so neatly.

 

I kind of like an arizona law I heard about, anyone can carry a gun as long as its visibly displayed. Makes for one hell of a deterrent to crime when you see the room around you is full of armed people.

 

The mental test is what worries me. 99% of the population can be diagnosed with something, and the 1% that can't are probably the craziest anyway.

Edited May 3, 2009 by eraser_tr

[GwynO 16]

Well this law would probit gun ownership for disabled people like my self. I have 3 firearms and am saving money to get an wheelchair mounted shooting bench to help me shoot. If this passes, I won't be able to get another firearm because I don't drive and I would fail the physical part of the test. Although I think I'll pass the mental test.

 

I got a question though. I can't physically hold a firearm to fire but if I have an hardware device to help to hold it, would that make me pass the physical?

 

Falcon

 

That's a very good point you bring up FalconCAF, I thought about that point about the physical tests and thought perhaps it was to say limit someone with Parkinsons or some other illness effecting motor neurone ability from shooting unaided, I mean I am not diableist in the least, but I would not feel comfortable at a range next to an epileptic with a cocked gun, and that is in no way a slight or a joke about the person, just that probably a little common sense would apply to such situations. I think very few physical illnesses warrant a total exclusion from firearms, in fact I can't even think of one! So long people who need assistance are given that assistance, then cool!

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

In Europe it's much harder for most people to own guns than in the U.S., granted... but not for all.

 

Not really wanting to diss anything political, but just wanting to show you this piece of unbelievable democratic justice...

 

Did you know that in Portugal the members of parliament are allowed to carry guns without having a license? Oh, and they have judicial immunity meaning they can kill anybody and not be held accountable for it. And they themselves are the only ones able to waiver their own immunity...

 

Why this is necessary is really beyond my comprehension, yet is a fact.

[i90807065 0]

Unless I commit a crime with one of my implements in the economy its nobodies business what I have, especialy a government that takes half my paycheck every 2 weeks and wants more.

 

I agree with this completely, and find this law to be utterly overcomplicated...I think it could be a little bit better in some ways (Like finding a suspect), but not necessary

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Nope. No gun "laws" are needed at all in a responsible society. eraser says it all. There was a time in USA when everybody learned firearms at a young age, and that was when the country was growing stronger.

 

eraser::

Uh, I knew kids hunting before they were 10.

Raising kids the right way -- a target of destruction by central banking and debt funded warfare. Registration is followed by confiscation. I always said the Soviets lost the Cold War, and the Communists won hands down. When you discover that the western central bankers funded the Bolshevik Party from the beginning, it makes sense.

 

A deep interview of MiG-15 pilot in Korea, by FPSOlkor at Oleg Maddox Yellow Wallpaper Forum.

~> http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=6347

 

What stands out for me is (1) difference in contrails between MiGs and Sabres, and more important (2)....

 

At a regiment formation, the regiment commander presented me a small-caliber rifle of Czechoslovakian manufacture for some sortie that he liked. It had an inscription plate. It was later taken away from me. The militia kept pursuing me, and finally I gave it up.

A good a reason to fly a MiG to S. Korea as I can think of.

[eraser_tr 29]

But can you name one true "responsible society" ? Thats the catch, so some laws are needed, they just need to be intelligent and uninvasive. Or actually effective. I wonder if its possible to find statistics about how many gun crimes are committed by legally purchased guns and people with a license for them compared to those illegally bought and without any permit whatsoever?

 

Nevermind the psychology behind it. Someone using a gun to commit a crime is already violating the law, are they going to care they're breaking another one by having a gun? not likely, so all you're doing is making it harder for people to legally have one to defend themselves, hunt, target shoot, etc, etc.

[GwynO 16]

I think you're onto something Eraser. I think the problem in any responsible society is that for sane gun laws to have any purpose at all means that something has to be done about the illegal guns, otherwise as you say, all they do is penalise the legitimate users. However, to give up all attempt at legislating on guns just because there are always going to be illegal guns is extremely defeatist, similarly the argument that because there is always a black market fro drugs, we should legalise everything. The sane and rational approach I think, with drugs and guns, is to first tackle the gangs running these markets, secondly to have fair and context sensitive legislation that protects the right of the individual to do, more or less what the hell they want with whatever they want in private, or in the company of other consenting adults. I'm still not going to be too happy thinking about a bus driver under the effects of crack in his shift, or carrying a gun for that matter, he can do those things in his own time and place.

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

eraser::

But can you name one true "responsible society" ?

You kinda just did -- you knew kids hunting before they were 10.

 

Kopis::

The sane and rational approach I think, with drugs and guns, is to first tackle the gangs running these markets,...

Under freedom, society can take care of gangs and thugs on its own, unless interefered with by .gov. Recall the British Empire ran the opium trade, and I suspect today's .govs are there as well. And they are going to "help" ... don't think so. Recall that when USA was growing strong, with little government, drugs were freely available, and without the crime we associate with drugs today. But people back then knew the price of doing drugs, after all they were taught hunting at 10 years old or so, and so we seemed to have been able to avoid crippling the country.

[GwynO 16]

Lexx: I can see which way this would head if I reply to your points Lexx, so I'll leave it Completely OT, but what is that in picture in your signature? Looks strangely futuristic yet old.

[+Brain32 265]

"Yeah that's why I asked how it used to be...because here I can't legally posess a gun...at all"

 

Pretty ironic, since the Springfield Armory XD pistols are designed and manufactured in Croatia.

Yeah actually they(Springfield Armory) are only distributors for US market, that pistol is actually called HS2000 here and I believe it was called like that even in US before Springfield Armory bought the distribution license...

Either way, the only ones legally using it here are Military and Police forces...

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Kopis::

Lexx: I can see which way this would head if I reply to your points Lexx, so I'll leave it Completely OT, but what is that in picture in your signature? Looks strangely futuristic yet old.

Completely On Topic!!

 

Its an image of Soviet nuc test towers here ~> http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Russia/Sovtestsum.html

 

It seems futuristic and old at the same time: A surrealistic mix of Modernism and Old Testament imagery.

 

In short, every day from 1917 onwards, the USSR would have collapsed if not propped up by the western bankers and .govs. Pre-revolution Trotsky ran around USA getting money from our big bankers. When he started back to Russia through Canada, the Canadians arrested him, but USA.gov forced Canada to cut him loose. The Bolsheviks then had the funding to organize an armed takeover of the first and less radical Russian revolution. Nuc towers anywhere *might* not have even been built if not for big bankers and their central banks roaming the Earth, as they profit from what has been called Forever War. So it goes...

 

Its on topic as a prime concern for western central banking and its child Communism is confiscation of private property including arms from its "subjects" -- confiscating a private rifle given to a top MiG-15 pilot in Korea is a great example. Yea its kinda weird, but fascinating as well.

 

All that, and yet my fave colour is a mellowing mix of polished aluminumnumnum and anti-flash white!!

 

(thanks TK and pappy!!!)

[GwynO 16]

..All that, and yet my fave colour is a mellowing mix of polished aluminumnumnum and anti-flash white!! ..

 

At the minute, mine too! Can't fault it for putting the fear of God into the enemy when they see great white storks distributing Nuclear babies into every cove, corner and city. It's MAD

 

I wish you guys hadn't brought Springfield Armoury XD up! I just read about them and saw some pics... they are to die for! 16X .45 ACP from a polymer body that doesn't look like it needs a degree to take down. I wish we could even have a debate about new gun laws in the UK, unfortunately that's about as unlikely as O'Bama banning the sale of guns anywhere in the Continental US. Ah well. Maybe if I behave Santa Clause might drop one through my chimney this year. Or maybe they might still have reasonable laws in Greece by the time I get citizenship, who can tell.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Kopis n Xiphos

[Lexx_Luthor 57]

Common folk have firearms in Greece? I didn't know about that. If so...pretty cool. Any restrictions?

 

somebody last page...hmmm....TX321321....Yea this sounds typical of the political mob hehe.

 

32151::

Did you know that in Portugal the members of parliament are allowed to carry guns without having a license? Oh, and they have judicial immunity meaning they can kill anybody and not be held accountable for it. And they themselves are the only ones able to waiver their own immunity...

 

Why this is necessary is really beyond my comprehension, yet is a fact.

[GwynO 16]

Common folk have firearms in Greece? I didn't know about that. If so...pretty cool. Any restrictions?

 

Any restrictions! Of course there are! It's not quite Afghanistan yet My girlfriend's father keeps two shotguns at home and an air rifle that would be over the legal limit here is considered a non issue in Greece. The shotguns have to be kept in a safe place of course, legally the responsibility is down to the owner to make sure a burglar can't just come in and take them. All guns have to be notified to the authorities and licensed according to use, for example, target shooting means you can own your own pistol and take it to and from the club with you so long as it remains secure at all time, not dangling from your hip like desperate Dan. Hunting is very popular all over Greece so most people that own guns do so for that purpose. There are exemptions for people who can prove that their life is in danger to carry a gun concealed on their person (+ max 30 rounds). However, in the very mountainous and out of the way areas like Mani, Olybos and much of Kriti, the people are very civilised yet have enough weaponry to hold out against an army, it is not uncommon to hear everything from muzzel loaders to lugers or even automatic weapons being fired into the air to celebrate births, Chritenings, weddings, birthdays, graduations, passing a driving test, a football team win, cancellation of a soap opera (men), or to complain about cancelling of a soap opera (women) and especially to celebrate Easter and New Year! It sounds a lot worse than it is... the thing is that people who live there don't go around shooting each other, guns are not looked at as a manly way to settle a dispute, so it is very unlikely that a fight will result in a gun being drawn, it is actually unlikely that a Greek man will carry a gun to a fight anyway because this would imply he is a little wussy who can't fight like a man. There are a lot of cultural reasons why I would not feel scared at all walking at night through those areas, compared say to walking through Sparkhill in Birmingham (at any time of day) that's why I think gun laws often do more harm than good as they do little to stop the wrong people from getting guns, and from using them. Certainly sensible and fair gun regulations are helpful, but nowhere near as necessary as having a little culture and morality in the population, that though is something way beyond the scope of some lines on paper as this law is.