Now why is that?

[Gous 0]

I have a question...

When OFF decides that an aircraft is "uncontrollable", the OFF manager ends the mission on the spot. This means that if there are 4 EA on your back, shooting you, they will eventually make your plane go fubar and the mission will end. Isnt this a bit unrealistic? I mean, I want the mission to end, once my pilot's health drops to 0 or once I crash. And if the mission ends in the air, the manager just deems that the pilot survived (Even if you are at 10000 feet with clipped wings) and the campaign goes on... Dont you guys think that the mission must end once the aircraft crashes or once the pilot dies in the air by enemy fire? Can this be altered?

Edited May 12, 2009 by Gous

[Rickitycrate 10]

I agree. One of my very few sore spots with OFF BH&H.

[Bullethead 12]

I've brought this up myself. Because most of my pilots die very young, their sacrifices are too quickly forgotten, especially because there's nothing memorable about a black screen popping up suddenly and telling me I'm dead. Thus, I'd like the opportunity to either experience the full trauma of their deaths, to make them stick in my mind. The more that happens, the more I'm likely to remember what they did wrong, so my next incarnation won't make the same mistake.

 

I don't mind if OFF declares me dead in mid-air. Sure, keep doing that. But when that happens, let the mission continue until I end it. And don't black- or red-out the screen, either. Put me in unblocked external view with full control over the POV and let me watch my fall and crash, taking cool screenshots all the way down. Then let the remaining AI planes on both sides continue to fight, unless I make it stop. But if my plane is just shot up and/or missing pieces, and I'm still alive, let me keep fighting the controls and flames all the way down. Every time my fight to regain control is aborted by the black screen of "your plane is uncontrollable", I feel cheated. I ALWAYS think I could have pulled it out before I reached the ground. And even if I'm wrong, I'd rather go down fighting than have the "mercy rule" applied. As Ahab said, "From Hell's heart I stab at thee, for Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee!"

 

Besides, if I'm on fire, I want that time to practice getting used to Hell

[Gous 0]

I've brought this up myself. Because most of my pilots die very young, their sacrifices are too quickly forgotten, especially because there's nothing memorable about a black screen popping up suddenly and telling me I'm dead. Thus, I'd like the opportunity to either experience the full trauma of their deaths, to make them stick in my mind. The more that happens, the more I'm likely to remember what they did wrong, so my next incarnation won't make the same mistake.

 

I don't mind if OFF declares me dead in mid-air. Sure, keep doing that. But when that happens, let the mission continue until I end it. And don't black- or red-out the screen, either. Put me in unblocked external view with full control over the POV and let me watch my fall and crash, taking cool screenshots all the way down. Then let the remaining AI planes on both sides continue to fight, unless I make it stop. But if my plane is just shot up and/or missing pieces, and I'm still alive, let me keep fighting the controls and flames all the way down. Every time my fight to regain control is aborted by the black screen of "your plane is uncontrollable", I feel cheated. I ALWAYS think I could have pulled it out before I reached the ground. And even if I'm wrong, I'd rather go down fighting than have the "mercy rule" applied. As Ahab said, "From Hell's heart I stab at thee, for Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee!"

 

Besides, if I'm on fire, I want that time to practice getting used to Hell

 

Thats exactly what I am saying. I think it would be better if we could fight till our last breath.

[+Winder 32]

Well I have seen this posted a few times now so I guess I will need to explain....

 

In P1/P2 and of course CFS3 depending on how the craft may break up, it sometimes loses localised mass, and the craft body and or even wings can then do crazy loops and actually gain altitude and basically ignore the laws of physics - this only happens to the players craft and yes the player is at that stage very very dead.

 

So to avoid this rather sad immersion killer we exit CFS3 whenever the player is dead plus about 6 seconds.

In this way if your craft has broken up you do not see the crazy physics at the end..... RB3D has a similar bad effect sometimes when the players craft crashed as I recall - instant immersion killer.

 

Remember there is no more fighting to be done you are..... dead...

 

HTH

 

 

WM

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Agreed, BH and Gous.

 

Who is to say what happens when we die? Perhaps we float around for a few minutes, observing our bodies from a short distance and thinking, "Well, THAT is certainly interesting!"

 

OFF, stop depriving me of my after-death experiences!!!

[Gous 0]

Well I have seen this posted a few times now so I guess I will need to explain....

 

In P1/P2 and of course CFS3 depending on how the craft may break up, it sometimes loses localised mass, and the craft body and or even wings can then do crazy loops and actually gain altitude and basically ignore the laws of physics - this only happens to the players craft and yes the player is at that stage very very dead.

 

So to avoid this rather sad immersion killer we exit CFS3 whenever the player is dead plus about 6 seconds.

In this way if your craft has broken up you do not see the crazy physics at the end..... RB3D has a similar bad effect sometimes when the players craft crashed as I recall - instant immersion killer.

 

Remember there is no more fighting to be done you are..... dead...

 

HTH

 

 

WM

 

I understand. But if I am THAT dead, then why doesnt the OFF manager kill me in the campaign as well? Because after each of these incidents the campaign goes on for me and I have to resign my pilot manually...

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Perhaps your OFF pilot is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is still slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do...go through his clothes and look for loose change.

[+Winder 32]

I understand. But if I am THAT dead, then why doesnt the OFF manager kill me in the campaign as well? Because after each of these incidents the campaign goes on for me and I have to resign my pilot manually...

 

 

If this issue persists please contact us on support stating how we can recreate this as in both my QC and campaign missions when my pilot is dead the game exits - if my pilot is NOT dead the game continues.

 

There is no levels of 'Dead' - CFS3 either determines you as DEAD or NOT DEAD.

Dead + 6 seconds game exits.

And yes its CFS3 that determines this NOT the manager.

 

HTH

 

WM

[Dej 17]

Well I have seen this posted a few times now so I guess I will need to explain....

 

In P1/P2 and of course CFS3 depending on how the craft may break up, it sometimes loses localised mass, and the craft body and or even wings can then do crazy loops and actually gain altitude and basically ignore the laws of physics - this only happens to the players craft and yes the player is at that stage very very dead.

 

So to avoid this rather sad immersion killer we exit CFS3 whenever the player is dead plus about 6 seconds.

In this way if your craft has broken up you do not see the crazy physics at the end..... RB3D has a similar bad effect sometimes when the players craft crashed as I recall - instant immersion killer.

 

Remember there is no more fighting to be done you are..... dead...

 

HTH

 

 

WM

 

Winder,

 

For what it's worth I'm with the others on this one. I don't know how often the immersion-killing crazy loops etc. happened but it never did to me in P2 - and I died A LOT.

 

Along with everyone else I think this masterpiece you and the guys have created is the Mutt's Cojones. I'm therefore reluctant to make requests for change, preferring you guys to prioritise as you see fit - God knows, you've deserved it - but if this aspect of the manager could be reversed without too much grief I wonder if it were worth polling. I for one, like BH, miss the terrifying plunge to earth feeling Death's cold hand on my heart (or the Devil's fiery breath in my face, depending how I 'went West'). I found it MORE immersive, even if in reality I would have been already dead. And it did make for some excellent and sobering screenies.

[+Winder 32]

Winder,

 

For what it's worth I'm with the others on this one. I don't know how often the immersion-killing crazy loops etc. happened but it never did to me in P2 - and I died A LOT.

 

Along with everyone else I think this masterpiece you and the guys have created is the Mutt's Cojones. I'm therefore reluctant to make requests for change, preferring you guys to prioritise as you see fit - God knows, you've deserved it - but if this aspect of the manager could be reversed without too much grief I wonder if it were worth polling. I for one, like BH, miss the terrifying plunge to earth feeling Death's cold hand on my heart (or the Devil's fiery breath in my face, depending how I 'went West'). I found it MORE immersive, even if in reality I would have been already dead. And it did make for some excellent and sobering screenies.

 

Well I am not asking anyone to agree with it - clearly if you don't like it - me explaining why we did it is not going to change that - nor am I about to change it anytime soon as then we have the whiners on the otherside moaning about the physics... this way there is no funnies and you are dead so thats it - clean.

 

But I have taken the time to tell you why - yes we cannot win either way so it will stay as is!

 

HTH

 

WM

[Bullethead 12]

Perhaps your OFF pilot is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is still slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do...go through his clothes and look for loose change.

 

 

And the chocolate coating makes the miracle pill go down better. Geez, a "Princess Bride" reference. One of my favorite movies! And that's coming from a guy who's spent a lifetime developing an immunity to iocane powder

[RAF_Louvert 101]

"Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Ha ha ha..."

 

 

 

I love that movie.

 

 

 

.

[Bullethead 12]

I love that movie.

 

"Lovely, isn't it? It took me half a lifetime to invent it. I'm sure you've discovered my deep and abiding interest in pain. At present, I'm writing the definitive work on the subject. So I want you to be totally honest with me on how the Machine makes you feel. This being our first try, I'll use the lowest setting."

[Dej 17]

But I have taken the time to tell you why - yes we cannot win either way so it will stay as is!

 

HTH

 

WM

 

My apologies. I do appreciate the explanation. In my opinion this sim is already a winner, and there's none who've experienced it as would disagree with that - so you have won

 

Ironically though, there is so much quality that when a bit one liked goes missing one notices.

[griphos 0]

WESTLEY

I mean, what are the three

terrors of the Fire Swamp? One,

the flame spurts. No problem.

There's a popping sound preceding

each, we can avoid that. Two, the

Lightning Sand. But you were

clever enough to discover what

that looks like, so in the future

we can avoid that too.

 

BUTTERCUP

Westley, what about the R.O.U.S.'s?

 

WESTLEY

Rodents of Unusual Size? I don't

think they exist...

[griphos 0]

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

 

 

I just had to play to! Love that movie!

[Hellshade 110]

Well I have seen this posted a few times now so I guess I will need to explain....

 

In P1/P2 and of course CFS3 depending on how the craft may break up, it sometimes loses localised mass, and the craft body and or even wings can then do crazy loops and actually gain altitude and basically ignore the laws of physics - this only happens to the players craft and yes the player is at that stage very very dead.

 

So to avoid this rather sad immersion killer we exit CFS3 whenever the player is dead plus about 6 seconds.

In this way if your craft has broken up you do not see the crazy physics at the end..... RB3D has a similar bad effect sometimes when the players craft crashed as I recall - instant immersion killer.

 

Remember there is no more fighting to be done you are..... dead...

 

HTH

WM

 

I actually witnessed an EA I shot down do exactly the kind of physics defying manuevers you are talking about Winder. It only happened once. I circled it for nearly 3 minutes watching it spin uncontrollably horizontally and even gain altitude. I was pretty funny to watch. It was on fire and smoking heavily too, so it was easy to keep track of. It never crashed. I eventually just ended the flight. Anyways, sounds like a perfectly reasonably explanation for why you chose to handle it the way you did.

 

/salute

Hellshade

[Zommoz 0]

"You keep using that word... I do no think it means what you think it means..."

[Jammer28 0]

Ok, I was dying to say this before but didn’t want the thread to go OT. My favorite line:

 

“Let me esplain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.” 

[Bullethead 12]

"You keep using that word... I do no think it means what you think it means..."

 

"Ah, the sot has spoken. When I met you, you were so slobbering drunk you couldn't even buy brandy! And you! Hopeless, helplesss, brainless! Do you want to go back to where I found you, unemployed, in GREENLAND?!?!?!?!?"

[Rick Rawlings 128]

This happens to me all the time in the game:

 

"He's right on top of us! I wonder if he is using the same wind we are using?"

 

RR

[Madmatt 0]

I had brought this same issue up before as I feel it is a slight immersion killer and I had actually really liked (and gotten used to) how in Phase 2 the game didn't immediately end when i was brought down and I was able to watch my pilots last few flaming, twisted moments of agony at my leisure before returning to the main menu.

 

Perhaps 6 seconds is just a tad to quick on the trigger as it were? I certainly understand the technical reasons for it, and no one wants to see the games physics engine go all wacky all the time BUT often times we are talking about a very large investment in time, sweat, excitement, fear and anxiety that we have put into our pilots and to see all of that go POOF, with barely a moment to sit back and watch his demise and say to ourselves "ahh F*&^", does kinda suck.

 

A compromise solution (if feasible) could be to add another Workshop setting which would allow either a longer (or user terminated) "death cam" view as it behaved in PH1 and PH2 or allow it to continue to work as is. That way, if someone complains of what they see after they die, you can just tell them to put the setting back to its default mode (how it is now).

 

 

 

Madmatt

Edited May 13, 2009 by Madmatt

[Gous 0]

If this issue persists please contact us on support stating how we can recreate this as in both my QC and campaign missions when my pilot is dead the game exits - if my pilot is NOT dead the game continues.

 

There is no levels of 'Dead' - CFS3 either determines you as DEAD or NOT DEAD.

Dead + 6 seconds game exits.

And yes its CFS3 that determines this NOT the manager.

 

HTH

 

WM

 

Wait wait wait...so if my aircraft is determined as uncontrollable, the game exits after 6 seconds right? So when the game exits and goes back to the campaign, my pilot must be dead officially (the movie with the coffin, the soldiers shooting their rifles etc.) and the campaign ends! But this doesnt happen for me as my pilot is still alive. So this is a bug? The pilot must be declared as "deceased" in the dossier once the game exits even if I am still in mid-air?

I hope that this is not the case...

What do the others experience in this? For you, once the game exits in mid-air after losing the ability to control the plane, the pilot dies in the campaign as well?

[+Winder 32]

Wait wait wait...so if my aircraft is determined as uncontrollable, the game exits after 6 seconds right? So when the game exits and goes back to the campaign, my pilot must be dead officially (the movie with the coffin, the soldiers shooting their rifles etc.) and the campaign ends! But this doesnt happen for me as my pilot is still alive. So this is a bug? The pilot must be declared as "deceased" in the dossier once the game exits even if I am still in mid-air?

I hope that this is not the case...

What do the others experience in this? For you, once the game exits in mid-air after losing the ability to control the plane, the pilot dies in the campaign as well?

 

No please read - I said DEAD.... not LOSE ABILITY TO CONTROL THE PLANE.....how can you equate the two?

 

And then, as you should by now know, whether your virtual pilot is dead or not is then determined by your settings in the Manager (always dead, Die roll, or never dies)

 

If you have any further problems please contact us on support.

 

 

HTH

 

WM