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I know the Mirage III is supposed to be a great dog fighter. It won many wars and has shot down more than its fair share of air craft. But how do you do it? It doesn't maneuver very well, it's speed is average and you can only carry 2 heaters and one radar. I've been able to get moderate sucess with it, but this is mainly due to good luck and not skill with the Mirage. What do you guys think? How do I make this girl dance?

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One thing to remember is that the delta wing is like one big airbrake. That thing bleeds energy like crazy in a turn. I presume this is WOI we're talking about? The Matra 530(?) is useless. Those Shafrir 2s are your friends.

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Watch your speed and the enemy's...AT ALL TIMES.

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Find the dogfights episode about the IAF. They talked about some tactic they used to great effect. It was close to a yo-yo type thing. If you can find that episode it does work.

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Stick is right. Speed, and thus Energy or "E" is your friend in a delta-winged fighter. Delta's have the advantage of manuevering best at high speed.

 

So if you're flying the Mirage IIICJ, for instance, you turn best at around 400Kts. Keep in mind that at that speed your turn radiius is larger. Always use your rudders. It makes a HUGE difference. If you're turning to port (left), and your nose is above or even with the horizon, use right rudder. If your nose is below the horizon use left rudder. This is contradictory to flying a conventional planform (wings+stabs). In the F8 Crusader in a left turn I use the opposite, left rudder above the horizon, right rudder below it.

 

Don't try to turn with the Mig-17 below 300 Kts. They'll eat you for lunch. If one gets on your tail (they do this incredibly easily) the only manuever that seems to work is to barrell roll. Only do this when they're reeaalll close (inside 0.4 miles). They'll drift off to one side or the other. Kick in afterburners and either run for it or turn inside him while he's meandering and lost visual lock on you.

 

Mig-21's are FAR easier. You can turn with them. Just be sure to use your rudder. Go to max afterburner if you are not gaining and run for it. They'll give up on you if you put 4+ miles of distance from them. When they do, turn out about and don't bleed all your speed away. Come back at the target when YOU have the advantage of speed and altitude.

 

With either one, always be sure to point your nose ahead of the target whether you have a gun solution or not. If they're below me, I always stay up high and make them come up to me (they always do). That way they burn up all their energy "E" and I have the advantage of a higher E state and can turn faster.

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Ah thanks, just what I was looking for. But how do you hit them if you have more speed? When I have the speed advantage I always blast past the guy before I can hit him. This is coming form a guy who is used to maneuver fighting, not power fighting if it helps.

 

 

I just ran a mission with the CJ. 1970 solcal map. We intercepted some MiG-19's. I took your advice and it worked magnificently. Above 400 knot IAS and with the rudder trick I can out turn a Farmer! I was able to put all 3 of my missiles on target and even bagged me a guns kill. All in all it was a good day.

Edited by zmatt

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That zmatt you are going to have to just learn. I still do it once in awhile, but its just a gut thing. How can I explain this? When I am on a bandits tails I am on the speed brake and throttle constantly. You just gauge his speed and react accordingly. I know this doesn't help at all. If I could remember that tactics name the IAF used I could also explain it better.

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That zmatt you are going to have to just learn. I still do it once in awhile, but its just a gut thing. How can I explain this? When I am on a bandits tails I am on the speed brake and throttle constantly. You just gauge his speed and react accordingly. I know this doesn't help at all. If I could remember that tactics name the IAF used I could also explain it better.

 

I'm much better at deflection shooting in props than jets. It probably has something to do with more guns = more lead = I don't have to be as good a shot. But I am getting the hang of the mirage now. I can see that in the right hands it can be very deadly. The MiG-19 is a pretty tough opponent in TW games, but I just at a flight of them for breakfast.

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This is the excellent advice provided back when WOI was first released by Jug, ezlead and Crusader, if I remember correctly!

 

All delta winged fighters like the Mirages (excluding F1 of course), F-106, F-102, etc bleed energy in turns. It's a function of that huge wing acting like an airbrake when you pull high AOA. You must keep your speed up by limiting the number and duration of turns you make.

 

Stay fast, i.e. 350 kts, more is even better. Use vertical turns rather than horizontal turns.

In reality, Israeli Mirage pilots flew low to maximize the advantage of the smoother behaviour of the airframe and better armament than the MiG-21s, but in the sim this is probably not a good idea.

 

After dozens of stalls and slips in 6 day war I figured it out myself and started doing vertical turns and stopped pulling stick like crazy.

And if you got a ****load of MiGs on your tail don't try to make a nice big turn - hit the airbrakes, cut throttle, pull up. They usually miss their guns and don't have time for proper missile lock - then can't brake in time and slide right in your sights.

 

The Israelis, on the other side, would in air combat use the large delta-wings of their Mirages as air brakes to execute very tight turns and point their aircraft at the opponent, followed by the use of the afterburner to accelerate back into the fight. Such turns were excellent measure against R-3S, but would usually also enable the Mirage to position behind the MiG. Besides, the theoretically dangerous use of the afterburner was not that much of a problem in a situation where enemy infra-red homing missiles were usually useless.

 

Its difficult, sure. The AI will tend to make every fight a tight turning fight, and in their MiGs that is not a bad idea. A high or low yo-yo can often get you a high-deflection shot, but its low PK. One tactic that works is this: as they turn they will inevitably spiral down towards the ground. Once they get low enough, they are forced to level out, and at that point they are an easy kill most of the time.

 

The Mirage is a dog in WOI at turning so you have to keep your speed up - and move a lot because I can almost guarantee while im after a Mig-17 - another 1 is on my six getting ready to fire :)

The Israelis had to use a technique called stitching against "inferior" fighters that could easily out turn them - keeping a high energy state and going up in the vertical then slashing down in a dive - unfortunately this is difficult to do unless you have a trackIR. And hitting them with cannon is still not that easy either! Try not to slow down and turn!

 

Have you tried using the tactic called vertical rolling scissors? It's worked miracles when I used that going against Mig-21's while I'm flying the F-4E. After scissoring multiple times, I've pulled into the vertical and then rolled over on the top almost like doing a vertical scissors, then dove in on him for a head on pass.

 

Against the mig17 if you've got some on your tail and can’t shake them off then just go vertical. Provided you have roughly the same energy (i.e speed and altitude) the mig will always stall before the mirage. Then just get out of the climb and try maneuvering on their six. The mig will at this point try to make it a turning fight so don’t let them. If you notice that you'll not be able to make the turn just level of, gain some speed and go vertical again. The mirage has a higher service ceiling too (although not by much) you'll get him eventually.

Now there are some things to remember. Check your six to see where the migs are shooting, they tend to shoot at you while climbing and they just might get luck. Another risk is from sams as you wont have much speed to work with as you approach stall. Check your fuel too as you'll be doing all this on afterburner.

 

A few tips....

1) Learn to roll at high alpha with the rudder.

2) Practice your deflection shooting. You'd be surprised how often a MiG-17 screws up and crosses your flight path well within gun range.

3) When in a scissors, remember tip 1, and don't overcompensate. It only takes me 2-3 scissors before I go from having a MiG-21 on my six, to being on his six.

4) Use lag pursuit. Force your opponent to execute large, energy-bleeding maneuvers, but don't follow his lead!

5) Use clouds to force an opponent to lose track of you. Estimate where he'll be when you both emerge (from the clouds), and try to be on his six.

6) Only use the vertical when you know that your aircraft's still in a high energy state, but your opponent's is not.

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NeverEnough just mentioned two really good tactics I forgot to mention...( all are great actually, but I'll focus on two of them ).

 

Lag-Pursuit: I first heard it mentioned in use by Eddie Richenbacker in WW1 (probably invented by Udet or Boelke) and used regularly until Vietnam to help Ritchie Cunningham bag four migs in a single mission. It works like a charm when you're in an energy fighter taking on a turn 'n burner like the Mig-17. It involves rolling "away" from the turn which seems counter-intuitive, but it works because it drops your nose down out of the roll in a direction you couldn't manage in a flat turn.

 

Use the Clouds: I've dumped more than a few migs by screeching into a turn through a cloud and reversing the turn coming out the other side.

 

I haven't gotten the zoom climb to work well for me in a Mirage (perhaps I'm not watching my energy state closely enough), but it works great in an F4. The Phantom is like a bloody brick mounted on top of an Atlas rocket. It's speed will get you out of trouble just as fast as anything.

 

Oh, and don't expect the Mirage to turn much at all over 500Kts. It's optimal turn envelope is very tight, so you have to watch your speed at all times.

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"Let him pass"

 

 

Yep that is it, high G barrel roll. If you can perfect that move and no Mig can touch you and you will be wasting them. Thanks coolpilot for baling me out.

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