Bristol fighters flown by wizzards?

[Olham 164]

For a long time I swallowed my complaints about this, and thought, one day it may be different.

But today, over the North Sea, I had another, very strange example of "Brisfit Wizzards":

Although I neither saw tracers, nor heard shooting, my engine was damaged when I got close

to a Bristol fighter.

I have by now attacked 11 Bristol Fighters, from all different angles - and EVERY SINGLE TIME

my engine was instantly damaged.

 

Now I know, they are the most dangerous two-seaters here, but that is really over the top.

I wouldn't complain, when there would be holes in the wings or fuselage, or the controls work less

good - but engine damage EVERY time and instantly - are they wizzards instead of pilots?

[Red-Dog 3]

Olham your right mate.Just flew a quick combat mission and got on a brisfits tail,the rear gunner gave me both barrels up my carbs before i got him.....

 

 

[Hasse Wind 46]

Have you tried changing the rear gunner settings to less accurate in the workshop? I've noticed they are probably too accurate with the normal settings. Yes, it lowers the realism ratings, but who cares?

 

I can't say I've always had my engine damaged when attacking Brisfits (often yes, but not always), but nowadays I tend to avoid those bastards altogether and go after easier opponents.

[Olham 164]

I can't say I've always had my engine damaged when attacking Brisfits...

 

Oh, good to hear that - so there is hope, that one day.... And yes, I had set it to "less accurate" already.

[Siggi 10]

On a related note, nine times out of ten in my brief experience with the Dr1, the first enemy burst damages the engine. Even fire from directly behind. Maybe it's hit-box is too big or something.

[+Polovski 460]

Hit boxes are fine, they are the size of the engines. Turn the rear gunner accuracy down Olham. The reason your engine is always hit is because you are pointing it to a gunner ;)

Normally the guns are behind you from a fighter.

 

First thing hit is your engine (it saves the bullet heading for you maybe). Use the options.

 

Also because of the way CFS3 works, the first damage on your engine, will cause the damaged noise to play. That's the way it is in CFS3. Maybe one day we can change it but add it to the list of things to do...

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

Olham your right mate.Just flew a quick combat mission and got on a brisfits tail,the rear gunner gave me both barrels up my carbs before i got him.....

 

 

 

nice screen capture-- but if THAT'S how you attack two seaters most of the time... well, JUST losing your engine doesn't seem so bad! ;)

[+Polovski 460]

Exactly, remember your *relative* speed and direction to the gunner. Poodling behind in a nice straight line means SHOOT ME ;)

Lucky for you the main big thing right in his view is your engine.

[Olham 164]

Yes, all good and fine, but I think I wrote clearly, I came from all possible angles.

I was even shot at, when my taillplane showed towards the Brisfit, but:

Engine hit. Always.

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

Yes, all good and fine, but I think I wrote clearly, I came from all possible angles.

I was even shot at, when my taillplane showed towards the Brisfit, but:

Engine hit. Always.

 

I know--that's why I didn't quote you.

 

they're deadly--and if you put the highest levels of difficulty on it's really HARD to shoot one down without getting shot down or killed in the process.

 

all tactics rely on firepower. you have two guns firing through the prop for their one. always prefer nose-to-nose gunnery passes. don't turn with them, turn against them. go for high-deflection shots. don't 'pursue' the enemy unless you know he's mortally wounded. and if you chase him, don't get closer than 500 ft.

 

when you perform a head-on pass put him at your 11 or 1 o'clock position before you attempt to shoot him. you want some slight deflection before you start going nose-to-nose. this makes it a tiny bit more difficult for the AI to get you in their sights. it adds an extra second or so of unmolested firing time. I start opening fire at about 1,000 ft. I know that the closing speed will only give me a second or two of firing time before I cross pathes. after the merge if he turns towards you, turn towards him and KEEP turning. if you turn away, you'll be exposing yourself to his observer. if, after merging, he turns away from you, then turn away from him as well. put some distance between you and the observer. if you fly straight away while your on his 6, he'll just rattle your plane with bullets. so turn off at a 20 or 30 degree angle and at LEAST make it harder for the observer to kill you.

 

basically, if you're pulling less than 2 G and you try to turn with him then that observer is going to light you up like a Christmas tree. if you're in the middle of 2 or 3 G turns then you might not have to worry about the observer QUITE so much. this is usually in the middle of a steep climbing or diving turn. I only attack Bristol Fighters in a climbing turn by using low yo-yos. this means that I put my nose down, dive a little bit, then pull up sharply. I never try to pursue the enemy in his turn, I always try to anticipate where he's going to be and blast him at the top of his turn.

 

the Bristol Fighter loves to perform the split-S. one the best time to actually pursue him and open fire is in the middle of a roll. while he's rolling towards you or away from you, there's no way that observer can kill you. he's also flying a predictable path (he has to fly more-or-less in a straight line in order to do the half-roll and bring his nose down). so this is really the only time it's worth 'chasing' a Bristol Fighter. and even then, I'd let him do the split-S and fly away. I'll turn slightly away, climb, and then watch where he goes. if he's turning, I'll do a high yo-yo and try to get him with a diving over-head pass again.

 

these tricks will work for the Albatros and D.VII variants.

 

if you're flying the Pfalz D.III, God help you, your only hope is to flame them in one quick-and-dirty overhead pass. or, if you have superior numbers. otherwise, you are utterly helpless to do anything against them.

 

haven't had the chance to really try flying the Dr.I against the Bristol Fighter. so somebody else will have to come up with ideas for that.

 

I tried all of these tricks with the difficulty levels at 160% the ONLY way I could shoot down a Bristol Fighter with the Pfalz D.IIIa was with a high-speed over-head pass. I picked one, after he'd just performed a split-S a half-mile away. dove in on him with 40 degrees deflection from 2,000 feet above him. aimed 200 feet or so ahead of where he was headed, opened fire, waited for him to cross my line of fire, and after 250 rounds and about a 1/2 second of turning into him. he tried turning away, and the combined stress of his air-combat manuever with my continuous fire killed him. his upper wing exploded into hundreds of little pieces and his engine burst into flames. and that, my friends, is probably the only sort of situation where I'll ever shoot down a Bristol Fighter F2b with the Pfalz D.IIIa: a high-speed, overhead deflection shot on a diving adversary.

 

wish I had a picture of it, lol!

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

yes, I've noticed the engine gets hit even when I'm flying away from the Bristol Fighter--but I've found a solution. I always perform some S-curves after crossing behind the Bristol Fighter, making sure that I dip just below his line of flight and put his tail above me. it means that I'm not exposed to continuous fire-- about half the time my wings and fuselage get shot up instead of my engine.

 

hope this helps, at least a little.

[Hauksbee 103]

Oh, good to hear that - so there is hope, that one day...

Until that day, perhaps it would be best to be flying the Brisfit? [LOL]

[rabu 9]

Boy am I glad I'm on the "good guys" side.

 

Good tactics, Kurtz!

[Olham 164]

I see, you have developed your tactics for the Brisfit, Waldemar.

But honestly: how often was your engine hit in 10 attacks on a Brisfit?

They perform so fast (one must really admire their flying like a lighter scout).

that you can hardly outmanoeuver or surprise them.

But I'll try your high head-on attack with a slight deflection. Must be the last

I haven't tried yet.

[Hasse Wind 46]

I absolutely agree with Waldemar about the Pfalz tactic to be used against the Brisfits. I've shot down 3 of those beasts by diving hard down on them and firing like crazy - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it's never safe to fight against the Brisfits. And nothing forces you to attack them in most situations, just fly away to fight some easier guys. It's a really unfair opponent - flies and fights like a scout and yet has its own rear gunner with 2 guns.

[JohnGresham 0]

I can sense your frusration, but at the risk of stating the obvious, the rear gun has two guns on the brisfit; they're absolutely deadly and they're hard to bring down. I give them a wide berth if I can. I can only suggest that you need to tweak your settings, alter your tactics (I did have some early success against them with a climbing attack from the front and below, or a short nears traight vertical dive, but would never engage them in a dogfight), or like me, just avoid them if you can.

[JimAttrill 24]

As a point, the F2B had only two guns, one fixed Vickers for the pilot and one flexibly mounted Lewis for the observer. Maybe some had two Lewises though.

 

But look at the score of McKeever and Powell with scores of 31 and 19 as pilot and observer. Meeting them could

ruin your whole day

 

It's a pity one can't fly with no 48 squadron with Brisfits, but no matter really.

 

http://books.google....page&q=&f=false

Edited September 7, 2009 by JimAttrill

[Creaghorn 10]

i like the fact that some bristols act like scouts. they are very dangerous opponents when acting like scouts, like it was in real. i also can't really say they always hit my engine. all that is fine. if i offer them my engine, they'll hit it. like any other two seater too or any scout from head on. what i don't like, is the AI FM of the bristol. IMHO their FM is pretty much uber and IMHO they perform too much weird moves. would be good to see bristols (attacking rolands would also be a nice idea because in real they acted also as scouts occasionally) beeing somewhat aggressive, but still flying like a two seater.

[Bullethead 12]

It's a pity one can't fly with no 48 squadron with Brisfits, but no matter really.

 

Sure you can. I've done it. 48 gets the Brisfit in April 1917, just like the history books say. The other Fee squadrons convert to Brisfits before the end of the year.

[Hauksbee 103]

Waldemar has a very sensible method when closing from behind, but I've always wondered why there's been no mention of attacking from in front. (must be reason...or I've just missed it.) It would seem that if you could get out in front and approach in a very shallow dive, [the operative word being 'shallow'] the gunner has to fire over the pilot and his top wing. If it gets hot, flatten the approach or even get slightly lower. If the approach is between 10:00 and 2:00, or 11:00 and 1:00, the Brisfit should screen you from the gunner.

[JimAttrill 24]

Sure you can. I've done it. 48 gets the Brisfit in April 1917, just like the history books say. The other Fee squadrons convert to Brisfits before the end of the year.

 

Funny, I tried a while back to fly with no 48 in the F2B and no 48 didn't appear in the list. Nor did 10, so I ended up in 11. Maybe I was going about it the wrong way or something. I'll try again.

 

I did get a bit suspicious as OFF has perfect mapping of squadrons to aircraft and airfields depending on the date. I didn't want to whinge about it.

[Olham 164]

Well, from reading your posts, I must have had just a strain of bad luck.

 

Creaghorn: would be good to see bristols beeingsomewhat aggressive, but still flying like a two seater.

 

They did first, and suffered losses like other 2seats too. But then they where really trained in fighting

like scout/fighter pilots would, and the Brisfit was like being made for that. So, I don't think that they

are "uber" here. They are just very good.

Hauksbee: If the approach is between 10:00 and 2:00, or 11:00 and 1:00, the Brisfit should screen you from the gunner.

 

Forget about that, Hauksbee, they are fighters. Would a fighter pilot let you approach like that?

No. He will pull up a little and fire into your approaching crate. If he doesn't hit you, he'll pass you,

and the rear gunner will give you some.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Olham

[Creaghorn 10]

Well, from reading your posts, I must have had just a strain of bad luck.

 

Creaghorn: would be good to see bristols beeingsomewhat aggressive, but still flying like a two seater.

 

They did first, and suffered losses like other 2seats too. But then they where really trained in fighting

like scout/fighter pilots would, and the Brisfit was like being made for that. So, I don't think that they

are "uber" here. They are just very good.

Hauksbee: If the approach is between 10:00 and 2:00, or 11:00 and 1:00, the Brisfit should screen you from the gunner.

 

Forget about that, Hauksbee, they are fighters. Would a fighter pilot let you approach like that?

No. He will pull up a little and fire into your approaching crate. If he doesn't hit you, he'll pass you,

and the rear gunner will give you some.

 

i know. at the beginning they were only fodder, and then they trained to use them as fighters and the first couple german pilots were pretty quickly shot down because it was unexpected. they thought it will be an easy prey and down they went.

no, i mean the AI FM itself is too uber IMHO. the turnings and spins and all that. they seem too maneuverable for me. but of course i might be wrong.

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

I see, you have developed your tactics for the Brisfit, Waldemar.

But honestly: how often was your engine hit in 10 attacks on a Brisfit?

They perform so fast (one must really admire their flying like a lighter scout).

that you can hardly outmanoeuver or surprise them.

But I'll try your high head-on attack with a slight deflection. Must be the last

I haven't tried yet.

 

30-40 percent. (aka the first three or four times!) I got my engine hit while flying above their tail in a straight line nearly every time. (it didn't matter if they turned or not, they usually got me) moreover, if I ever bothered to turn with them while in their rear quarter, they could get me there too. so I settled on "turn against them until they're dead"

 

which is why I advocate turning after the merge. once I stopped flying straight-away after crossing paths with them, the engine damage stopped being so lethal. high-G turns (over 2 or 3) are really the only solution I've found. and more specifically low yo-yos after crossing behind them. (turn, push the nose down, and then come back to your original alt to complete the turn).

 

after I adjusted my tactics I got a LOT more hits on my wings and fuselage. with all the tactics I've described on this post I've found that the only time they get hits on my engine is when they manage to get on my tail. most of these tactics were tested in quick-combat in one-vs-two situations at 160% -- but the principles were devised back when I played RB1.

 

again, flat S-turns work well. if you have the opportunity to perform a rolling scissors, there's no way the Bristol will keep up with you. it's STILL a two-seater-- use that to get out of the way and come back for a better attack. descending spirals, if you can lure them in, can help get them below you. break out first and start a climbing turn-- this is probably most useful in the Dr.I or the D.VII which can outclimb the Bristol Fighter easily. once you get above them you can extend away and come back for an overhead pass when you get the chance. or just keep climbing away and ignore them.

 

I've been using over-head deflection shots on the Bristol Fighter since RB1-- those aircraft never showed up in campaigns, so I always made customized missions where I put 'ace' fighters like Mick Mannock or Rene Fonck in them -- and they were every bit as deadly, by comparison, as the deadliest two-seaters in OFF. if I didn't put the AI aces in two-seaters for custom-made RB1 missions they generally sat their like a target-drone getting pulled through the air. (granted, the RB3d two-seaters weren't that great-- but these tactics worked well enough online against Bristol Fighters when I got involved in "Flanders in Flames"-- which, all things being said, is very similar to the OFF flight-model in general feel: OFF has less energy bleed and a more sophisticated damage model)

 

finally, I'd advise flying a few careers in the Bristol Fighter. I actually have more flight-time in the Bristol Fighter than all the non Fokker E.III scouts put together. it's certainly helped reinforce and shape my tactics.

[Rickitycrate 10]

Brilliant, thank you!

Edited September 7, 2009 by Rickitycrate