Question to our German Friends

[Beanie 4]

I find that this topic is a reflection of the maturity and respect that the forum members possess for the history and diversity among our members. Frankly I think where no offence is intended none should be taken. OFF brings us into the historical period and we engage in the period in various ways. When I am "playing " the part of a Brit flyer I use what my Minnesota mind believes to be Brit terms from the times. I wonder if I offend with my stereotypical language. Then I remember I am among men that know what I am trying to do and so I don't worry about it. I must say that anyone with the nature to offend others in this forum have not stayed here long. Or perhaps they were to easily offended? The German is my enemy because I'm a Yank. In real life a certain German in this forum must know I have a brotherly regard for him. I wish to extend that regard to all OFFer's as we do have a common bond. Being a community that was exiled from another home I am very proud to be a member and associate of such a fine group.

 

As always Rickitycrate - well said!

[Cash 0]

Hey folks!

 

For myself, i dont have any real problem with the term "hun", all nations had their nick-names on the field so... why not huns?

 

But i want to pick up a word from Olham. I don´t really like the term "the dark side". For me, in ww1 there wasn´t any good, or dark side, all soldiers of all the nations have done their job in a good believe. For King and Country and so on ... I think we can´t judge it with the actuall "point of view", in other words, with the eyes of today, it was another time, the people weren´t out of the same wood like today, or maybe better, the people today are not out of the same wood the people where then. (guess you get the point)

 

For me, nicknames of the "enemy" are quiet normal, and to be called a hun? hey never mind, wheres the tommy who said that? But, for me, i actualy dont like the term "dark side" or evil guys etc etc etc. I guess this would bring a wrong light on the german side.

 

Today i talked to one of my patients, about this thema (imperial german bzw. Preussian´s itself). I can´t understand why today people put this aspekt of our history in such a bad light! Hey, we dont talk about our real bad years! -> but i guess this could have an impact on the whole thing ... (also if this would be wrong but people are like this...)

 

 

just my two cents

[Check Six 2]

I am guilty of using the term "Hun" here, but I have never used it in a derogatory sense, and trust our German pilots have not taken offense at its use. I am a firm believer that "they" (be they German, Austrian, Hungarian, Turkish, Japanese) are simply the enemy. They are human beings, much like us, only doing a grim job because of their view that they are protecting their homeland or way of life, some because they were conscripted, others willingly. Some thought of it as a "great adventure" and a cheap way to see the world. Hell, it'll be over by Christmas anyway. Better get in quick before it's over.

 

I am researching a book on Australians who fought in the Great War with the RNAS, and my co-author had a great-uncle who died whilst a Turkish prisoner on the forced march after the capture of Kut. He doesnt know if he was mis-treated, beaten, or died of natural causes, was shot or whatever. To this day, he harbours hatred for Turks. I personally look at Mustaf Kemal Ataturk who said in a speech to all mothers of foreign soldiers something along the lines that "your sons are buried in our soil, and so now they are OUR sons too" and promising to look after them.

 

I sympathise with Bullethead and his fellow southerners being called yanks. That is simply ignorance on the part of those that refer to all Americans as Yank, and he is SPOT ON with his comparision with calling a Scot an Englishman.

 

itifonhom was also SPOT ON when he mentioned that this sort of "name calling" or "labelling" was only necessary when opne feared the enemy or their capabilities. If you were stronger...MUCH stronger than them...you didn't call them names or spread propaganda...you crushed them swiftly.

 

Many of these "nicknames" for other nationalities are bandied about light-heartedly with no offence meant, but in truth, their names are generally derived from times when there WAS a "hatred" or at least much ill-feelings between the two countries. UK_widowmaker was correct in bringing it up. The fact he brought it up to try to find out if the term WAS hurtful to our German friends shows how much respect he has for the German forum users here. And all the nice comments from Germans, Americans, And other nationalities here proves just what a GREAT community we all have here.

 

 

Thanks to everyone.

 

Edited October 7, 2009 by Check Six

[Bullethead 12]

Since I'm rather new here, I fail to understand. Exiled?

 

OFF had long been on Sim Outhouse, shortly after BHaH came out, SOH put the squeeze on OBD for $$$ to continue hosting the forum. OBD had anticipated this, however, and had already found us a new home here a Combat Ace.

 

It was a time of rather high passions. I got banned for life at SOH as a result, something I consider a badge of honor . At the time, I figured this was no loss anyway because I never intended to go back. Recently, however, with my 1st tentative steps into 3D modeling for OFF, I have discovered that since the demise of NetWings last spring, all the 1% CFS3 modelling stuff is now on SOH, beyond my reach. Oh well. It was still worth it .

[Wels 2]

Hello,

 

i take no offense of being called "Huns", "Jerries", "Krauts" or even "boches", as long as i can call my outlandish friends "limeys", "tommies", "yanks", "rednecks", "schangels", "frog-eaters" or whatever lol. (He who bares the most names wins ?)

B.t.w. what would be an "insulting" term for a person in the U.S. ?

 

The "dark side", well ... we had quite a long "discussion", or better a war, over at the aerodrome forum, where some Bristol said that "hunish" prussian militarism was present from day one when the first german tribes appeared on earth's surface, and that the planned and intended killing of civilians and other nations had been present all the time until at least 1945.

Next was Germany was alone guilty of WW1 and its beginnings, and that generally the time and living in Germany short before WW1 was similar to the time of Hitler and his 3rd Reich. I dared to divert from this point of view, when i realized that only the dead have seen the end of the war, and propaganda is still alive.

It is certainly true that the time from 1933 to 1945 overshadows all else in Germany, but even if one lead to the other there is no point in equating.

 

I hope i did not open a can of worms, but then Catfish are known for such

 

Greetings,

Catfish

[kaa 0]

@Olham: I 've never heard this explanation about the link between "Boche" and "Bosch", the origin is unclear though...tête de boche / de bois meant wooden head...

[OvS 8]

I agree with Mike on the 'Hun' origin. I think it dates back to Germania, when it was ruled by so called Barbarians, which the Romans constantly tangled with. Barbarians were also called Huns as well.... so maybe that's one place.

 

As far as the whole name thing.. it never bothered me. We have all kinds of names here in the states for everything and everyone... I could make a list a mile long and not get them all on it.

 

It's only offensive when used to be offensive... other than that, I like that we have fun with it. You're all good guys and should goof on each other. It's better that way. It adds to our immersion and love of history... especially in this era.

 

All the best!

 

OvS

 

PS I work for a British company... so I call all my closer British friends "F'n Lymies" and they call me the "F'n Yank'. ;)

Edited October 7, 2009 by OvS

[Cash 0]

"It's only offensive when used to be offensive... other than that, I like that we have fun with it. You're all good guys and should goof on each other. It's better that way. It adds to our immersion and love of history... especially in this era." Thats the point

 

(Wels, no prob. for me, but hey... for me theres a big point in between the preussian time (for me "ending" 1918) and the "bad years". Sure the bad guys out of the bad years took their place in the "preussian" time and so on, but... for me its a different story , that bad years where after 1918, not befor. thats the point. But i guess we´ll get into another thema if we go on with that hehe, so lets join the Jasta 13 officers mess for a good cup of cognac! )

[Olham 164]

We seem to have agreed peacefully on that Jerry, Yankee, Boche, Kraut, Tommy, Limey and Hun are no offenses for anyone.

 

kaa, I don't remember where I read it, but "tete de boche" = Holzkopf = wooden head or blockhead perhaps, makes a lot

more sense, as the French regarded themselves (and perhaps even where) of finer culture. The Germans had still to learn

a lot from the neighbours, and today we benefit much from French and Italian cuisine, British pop music and comedy, and

American movies and Harleys.

[buddye 1]

I am from the South (if Texas is still considered the South).

 

I have no problem being called a "yank" as during the wars it was a term referring to all Americans from all parts of the USA.

 

However, if you call me a "yankee" then those are fighting words.

 

I always try to avoid the use of a "label" for people/groups/nation/race.

Edited October 7, 2009 by buddye

[itifonhom 6]

As much as the "dark side" concerned, I think it has only to do with the fact that one side actually lost the war. It is always like this. The bad guy is the one that looses the war and I can't recall of a single example of the opposite. North-South, Germany-Allies, USA-Japan.

 

Specially at the Great War, I think the actual "bad guys" were the generals from all sides, who sacrified millions of their soldiers for nothing! A single German soldier maybe was responsible for one or two deaths, if at all, but the generals..... I really wonder how they could sleep at night! They were responsible of destroying a whole towns population in a single day and that of their OWN soldiers, how "dark" can that be?

 

The only way I use the term "dark side" is like "disco boys vs metal fans", you know, the "dark side"!!

 

Not sure how offensive is for the Brits to be called "disco boys" but I don't mean it bad.

 

 

itifonhom

[Cash 0]

"The only way I use the term "dark side" is like "disco boys vs metal fans", you know, the "dark side"!!"

 

Sure , guess the people around here are made out of the same wood

 

(for me being a newbie arround here, its good to see that there are some other "flyboys" around )

[Wels 2]

Hello to all,

 

@ Buddye:

 

"... I am from the South (if Texas is still considered the South). ..."

 

I guess it still is lol - i remember some whiskey branded "Rebel Yell", and it was stated on the bottle it would not be sold north of the Mason-Dixon line . But i guess it was in Cheyenne

 

Greetings,

Catfish

[OvS 8]

"The only way I use the term "dark side" is like "disco boys vs metal fans", you know, the "dark side"!!"

 

Sure , guess the people around here are made out of the same wood

 

(for me being a newbie arround here, its good to see that there are some other "flyboys" around )

 

I don't mind "The Dark Side" quotes either. Whether good or bad, it was almost 100 years ago. It's a fun, pirate-like refernece that gives some 'bad-boyish' nature to enjoying the German side. In my personal experience, I've never met a German I didn't like, and probably won't, so I know there is no truth to any of the 'Dark' references. So for the sake of having fun.... I'm happy and proud to serve for Lord Vader... and the Dark Side!!

 

Besides... as Winder will happily tell you... if it weren't for Makai, Paarma, and myself (representing the Dark Side Boy's) ... OFF would be a German Turkey shoot...

 

OvS

[OvS 8]

Hello to all,

 

@ Buddye:

 

"... I am from the South (if Texas is still considered the South). ..."

 

I guess it still is lol - i remember some whiskey branded "Rebel Yell", and it was stated on the bottle it would not be sold north of the Mason-Dixon line . But i guess it was in Cheyenne

 

Greetings,

Catfish

 

Negative.... Texas is not from the South... Texas is a COUNTRY located south of Oklahoma, and North of Mexico... it just so happens to share the same colors on it's flag as the rest of the USA. When I was there for training with American Airlines on 767/757 Avionics in Dallas, I had a ball. Texas is one of the coolest states... errr.... sorry... Countires I have ever been in.

 

And until you've been to Texas, you won't understand what I am saying. I'm surprised I didn't get killed, me with my heavy NY accent... but a lot of the guys (and ladies ) I met and spoke to got a kick out of it... I even got a chance to brake my ass on a Mechanical Bull!!

 

OvS

Edited October 7, 2009 by OvS

[Olham 164]

OvS: ...if it weren't for Makai, Paarma, and myself (representing the Dark Side Boy's) ... OFF would be a German Turkey shoot...

 

So we're in great company. Someone bring the Andechser beer! We got to celebrate a "dark side meeting"!

 

OvS: ...me with my heavy NY accent... but a lot of the guys (and ladies ) I met and spoke to got a kick out of it... I even got a chance to brake my ass on a Mechanical Bull!!

 

That sounds much like when an Ostfriese would visit Bavaria or vice versa - they hear from each other, where they come from, and may smile about the "dialect".

And of course you had to ride the bull - I would have tried it, too (with the same success, I'm afraid). Lol!

[Mr. Lucky 0]

Actually, this is an interesting question. I'll add a little to BH's post. There's more to it than just 'Yank'. Here in the U.S. during WWI, people of German heritage were persecuted, lynched, etc. I'm from Cincinnati which had a HUGE German community (spoke German in school, church, etc). Until WWI. Many people even changed the spelling of their name. My family kind of split that way..from Pirrmann (my name) to Pirman.

So, Hun doesn't bother me, Yank doesn't bother me, even the dark side doesn't bother me because I know the connotation and spirit in which it is delivered. These terms may bother others, but there is an element here some may not have considered. Those of us who are pilots understand the bond between airmen of all nations, so while we try to kill each other, we are still brothers of the air and can take these names as good natured ribbing. Remember the reunions between British and German pilots after WWII?

 

Take anything out of context or on it's own naked definition and you can take offense or umbrage, but take it in the spirit it is given (especially here) then you can't help but smile. If you have studied any history, dialogues are rife with these terms and idioms given in respect, friendship or even affection.

 

It's been said here earlier that we are also trying to immerse ourselves in the period and atmosphere of WWI and that is a part of it, just as surely as the bad weather, flaming airplanes and the sound of artillery battering away at the soldiers in the trenches. I could give many more examples where the spirit in which something is delivered completely changes the affect of the naked object itself. Also, ignorance of the language and readiness to take offense at anything can also create issues where there should be none i.e. the word 'niggardly' here in the U.S.

 

BTW, from studying early American history, I think Yankee is a bastardization of the French Ainglaze (spelling?) referring to the English colonists. I think the Portuguese had a similar term for the English.

[Olham 164]

Yankees is also assumed to come from the Dutch very common name "Jan Kees".

Where there many Dutch immigrants? Don't know.

 

This all is definitely a great read and yes, Mr. Lucky, maybe for pilots from different sides of the line

it is easier to feel something common - unlike the guys in the trenches, the pilots did cross that line

very often. And where they flew, there was no such thing as a line...

[Von Paulus 8]

BTW, from studying early American history, I think Yankee is a bastardization of the French Ainglaze (spelling?) referring to the English colonists. I think the Portuguese had a similar term for the English.

The word in Portuguese for English is Ingleses (not much different from French).

 

Just for the record, the Portuguese nicknames in WW1 were :

- Pork-and-Beans ( they hated the English ration, corn beef, but loved beans and pork)

- Geese

- Gooses

- Tony (because Antonio, which in English is Anthony, is a very common name in Portugal)

Edited October 7, 2009 by Von Paulus

[Rickitycrate 10]

I do believe that New York itself was a Dutch settlement. Stuyversant (sp) traded some baubles with the natives for Manhatten island or some such. So yes there was a strong Dutch influence in the 13 colonies. I somehow suspect the origin is Dutch rather than Brit because it does seem to me that the Englanders used the term Yankee as a derogative. Or perhaps it was coined by the Brits from the Dutch as Olham suggested.

[Creaghorn 10]

first of all i'm not offended at all by any nickname. mostly because i'm no german but croatian. nontheless i have a great affinity to the german side and since i own BHAH i tried only one allied campaign which i quit because it somehow felt wrong or simply because i can't reach the immersive level like in german campaigns. at least not yet. so i consider myself beeing a hun forumwise

new york was originally new amsterdam when it was founded. so olham might be right with jan kees or at least that it might have some dutch influence.

 

in germany there is a culture channel (arte) wich is produced by both, german and french. all shows are in french and dubbed or subtitled in german and vice versa. there is a weekly show named karambolage. it shows the little differences about french and german people, habits, words, traditions...i love this show. very informative.

in one show they explained the french word boche as meaning holzköpfe, wooden heads. in some early war (napoleonean wars?) the french started to call the germans boche.

[Stiffy 1]

Ive never heard Dark Side used... is it an amercan term for Germans? Surely a recent thing....

 

I always like 'Fritz' was a popular term used in WW1 by the british and is fairly non aggressive (after all just a german name)

 

As in... 'Fancy a quick sortie sausage side? Lets give Fritz something to write home about!"

 

 

Just for the record I have no problem being called 'Englander Schwein Hund'!

[Creaghorn 10]

it's also interesting that the term "to strafe" is originally a german word and means "to punish". that came from the german pilots strafing allied infantries (gott strafe england - god should punish england). don't know if the allied adopted this word during WW1 or after

[Stiffy 1]

it's also interesting that the term "to strafe" is originally a german word and means "to punish". that came from the german pilots strafing allied infantries (gott strafe england - god should punish england). don't know if the allied adopted this word during WW1 or after

 

 

If you look in my thread with the original ww1 publication you will see in there somewhere the english were using the term 'Strafe' in ww1

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=47634

[Duce Lewis 3]

Yankees is also assumed to come from the Dutch very common name "Jan Kees".

Where there many Dutch immigrants? Don't know.

I found this on YourDictionary.com

Yan·kee (yaŋ′kē)

 

noun

 

1. ☆ a person born or living in New England
2. ☆
   1. a person born or living in a Northern State; Northerner
   2. a Union soldier in the Civil War

[*]☆ a person born or living in the U.S.

Etymology: < ? Du Jan Kees (taken as pl.) < Jan, John + Kees, dial. form of kaas, cheese; orig. (Jan Kaas) used as disparaging nickname for a Hollander, later for Dutch freebooter; applied by colonial Dutch in New York to English settlers in Connecticut

 

Originally the Dutch had a small colony in New York

I believe they called it New Amsterdam

When the Brits took over they renamed it

 

And as a Connecticut native in New England, I guess I'm 100% Yankee

Never took it as Derogatory, in fact "Connecticut Yankee" is used here ...albeit a bit dated

The South may have spoken it in anger, as the North said "Johnny Reb"

But if someone's trying to kill you, it's not hard to understand name calling

 

As far s the use of the term "Hun"

Atilla the Hun was a fierce warrior who humbled the mighty Roman Empire

If I was born a 1000 years from now & someone called us Yanks "Pattons" I don't think I'd mind

My $.02