Balance AI aircraft and Player aircraft preformance please !

[Ironhat 0]

I've played CFS3 for years and been frustrated with how the AI aircraft of the same type i'm flying out preform my air craft.

I just got OFF and Hat in the Ring a couple of days ago and just love it other than this old flaw carried over from CFS3.

It sure takes a lot of fun out of the game to see a group of enemy planes at 9,000 feet engaging my flight zooming around like crazy while my budies engage them while i can barely keep my kite above stall speed no matter how hard i try to stay in the fight.

 

PLEASE no replies like learn how to fly. I know how to fly on the pc and in real life. This is a major flaw in the basic CFS3 engine and i sure would love to see the OFF devs fix it if that is possible. Great additon to the WWI sims but PLEASE correct this devs !

[Olham 164]

Okay, I won't say "Learn to fly",

but sorry, Ironhat, I don't have the problems since I learnt to fly my OFF aircraft.

 

I know the strengths and weaknesses of my craft, and make use of that.

As I read, you fly in real life - maybe your real aircraft is stronger than the WW1 kites?

 

I mean, these WW1 craft have a bad power-to-drag ratio; one must learn to gain, keep

and use energy much more than in a WW2 craft, which was a powerful engined fighter

with 12 - 16 cylinders.

 

Here is nothing to be corrected in the sim. I can even outurn the agile Nieuport in a left

turn with my Albatros. I can, after gaining speed (nose down for some seconds), even

climb after a SPAD and shoot a wing off it, when we both are vertical!

 

But I cannot expect to get after enemy craft, that fly as fast as I can, and are 1.000 feet

higher. If they don't make a mistake - I can't reach them.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Olham

[Winston DoRight 3]

First off, welcome to the wonderful world of OFF. You'll find many real world pilots here too, and we all are concerned about each others issues with the game.

 

Since the condition you are describing is hard coded into the game engine, it would be difficult for the devs to address this problem unless they're able to crack this aspect of the code. We've had this problem in CFS3 since the beginning, you may want to read this topic: http://forum.combatace.com/topic/52193-most-efficient-way-of-gaining-altitude/ it explains why this is true, what we did to overcome it in the original CFS3, and what you can do to get around this issue (to some point) in this simulator.

 

In the meantime, try leading your flights yourself and scrambling for altitude from the start. I'm always climbing and don't feel safe or competative with the adversaries until I'm above 10,000 ft. As you fly your missions you'll soon see what altitude the enemy prefers and you can make that your target altitude for your flight. Climb to it as quickly as you can.

 

I'm sure you'll get confortable with this drawback to OFF, but I'm equally sure you'll find many, many more things you'll like about it. No sim is perfect, and this one in single player rates as high as any other IMHO.

[Olham 164]

Oooops! Indeed, Winston: Welcome here Over Flanders Fields, Ironhat.

 

Through Winston's words, I got it now what you mean.

And yes: take the lead of your flights, that will do.

 

Please send me a PM with your town and country, so I can add you to

our OFF Pilots map, okay? Thanks!

[Hasse Wind 46]

And remember to take off with a reduced fuel load if you're going for a short mission. That's the easiest way of making your plane faster and more maneuverable. It evens the odds somewhat, and you'll learn to live with the issues we still have remaining from CFS3.

[Ironhat 0]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I fully understand those old WWI birds take different techinques from our modern aircraft.

I also understand one must learn the + and - of each aircraft and use them against the enemy.

I'll try lead only and starting at high alt. although i must say i like taking off and going from there.

 

All that said i guess i'll just have to live with this problem built into CFS3 until someone corrects it if they ever do.

[Winston DoRight 3]

..............I'll try lead only and starting at high alt. although i must say i like taking off and going from there..........

 

You can still takeoff and achieve a high altitude before reaching your mission area. There's plenty of form-up waypoints at the start of your flight and you can still claw for height on your way out. Don't give up the pleasures of taking off with some of these quirky craft!

[Hasse Wind 46]

Winston is absolutely right. I never start the mission in the air. Taking off is fun, and usually you have plenty of time to gain altitude, if you want.

[Creaghorn 10]

that's why you have to circle several times after takeoff around your airfield, for gaining height, before starting towards the lines. if you warp through this sequence, your AC will circle quickly by itself and gain height.

 

 

[Fortiesboy 3]

This is a valid point made by Ironhat. I have experienced it, especially it seems to me, if you are flying the German machines, and in dogfights where you are chasing the EA, who always seems to be able to climb just out of reach. You try to follow and, behold you are going into a stall- but not him.

Then I began to notice that some of the players aircraft- i.e the DR1 and pfalz and some Albs, were not reaching their max RPMs. (E.g. the DR1 should be 1200, but is barely above 1000 )

So, I've played with the FMs and got the RPMs up, and now I can catch the AI )

I've also found that a climbing turn is possible by using top rudder, whereas before, doing that led me to slide inexorably into the deck.

 

This is no big problem for me, as I do not fly much campaign, but mostly QC. And there is a way that you can fly these Uncertified aircraft in QC.

I feel I'm now on a level playing field, and certainly my frustration has decreased and my fun increased!

[Siggi 10]

I'm afraid I've come to regard the AI as of a very low level of threat. And I don't think it's because the AI is bad, it's because we have become masters of our planes. Having said that, Manfred sucked the large one.

[Bullethead 12]

Welcome aboard, Ironhat! New guy buys the drinks

 

With the formalities followed, let's talk business. Feel free to get another drink anytime you need one .

 

It's true, if you and the AI have the same plane, the AI's will have SLIGHTLY better performance. I've heard this is due to them having a lower gross weight than you do for a couple of reasons. But it's very important to note that 1) the AI's performance advantage is only marginal, and 2) saying #1 assumes ALL other things are equal, which isn't the case if you're thinking the AI is vastly superior. But if you are VERY familiar with your chosen mount, then all other things SHOULD be more or less equal. At that point the AI will NOT appear to be totally out-performing you, just maybe a little bit. But you should still be able to beat the AI most of the time due to your ability to improvise tactics to fit situations you're not programmed for.

 

Like Olham, I won't be so rude as to say, "Learn to fly". In fact, have a drink on me for even implying that . But it's not rude to say, "learn to fly your plane". I'm sure you've got tons of sim experience already, or you wouldn't have posted this, but the thing is, these WW1 crates all require finesse. They have VERY tight envelopes of maximum performance, outside of which they either can't fly at all and go into killer spins, or they can barely hang in the air while the enemy does rings round them. You'll never have much success until you find your ride's sweet spot and develop the ability to stay there instinctively. And the thing is, all planes have different sweet spots, sometimes radically different, so you need to fly them all differently.

 

It therefore takes considerable time and experience to get the most out of any OFF plane. If you're an experienced sim pilot, you can get a good feel for a certain plane after a few fights and can usually beat the AI, but true mastery takes months. OFF's been out for about a year now and I consider myself a master only in a maximum of 5 or 6 of its planes and competent in about a dozen more.

 

While you're learning the planes, however the AI, at least of the higher skill levels, knows its evelopes to many decimal places and can hit such small targets routinely. IOW, it's getting the best out of its ride. If you aren't good with a particular plane, the AI will seem to be cheating blatantly, but as you get a handle on your ride, you'll find the AI looks less and less superhuman.

 

Now, with all that said, I rather like it that the AI has a marginal performance advantage over me. First off, I've been flying sims, mostly MP, for decades, and have gotten drunk with Robert Shaw. As such, I know my ACM and can improvise it with a fluidity no AI, not even OFF's, can match. Thus, if the AI is a bit harder to bleed down, it's more entertaining for me. Second, I like combat, not flying around, and I have limited time to fly. Therefore, the LAST thing I want to do is waste time circling around so all my AI wingees can rejoin me after a fight. I really like how they can catch up with me, gradually, even though I'm going flat-out.

 

 

[+Polovski 460]

Currently the AI fly the same FM. The fact that some things don't affect it like wind, can make some behave differently.

 

We could stop that and make 2 FMs one for the AI to try to make it behave like it would, and a different Player FMs. We have also done many things to help balance but there are arguments the other way too, AI is not human, possibly never will be. Take away all advantages and then you will be the super ace winning the war, given already we have 1000s more hours than real pilots then.

Then balance is affected the other way too.

 

The RPM is not the problem per say FB, as I mentioned before. The craft climb and fly at speeds and alts as they should where possible for the player and turbo is adjusted based on engine/carb types

Testing is done by a player flying it so it's generally good for the player. AI are also checked to make sure that they can take off (and with other loadouts) and form up properly, and fly in formation etc with the player FM, and dogfight well, fly low, high etc, you get the idea.

 

They have "turbo" added in many cases to allow for a large variety in engine performance at altitude. Adding more power will give you the player a different FM, and boost it over the AI so yes you get a better craft.

 

P4 we are doing many things but exactly how it will all come together who knows.

 

OH and BTW just about all flight sims out there have similar AI issues. It's just not feasible to have the AI behave and fly identically to the player (until we have super computers at home), it's not a player it's a computer. However we have eliminated many issues along the way and think it's generally pretty darn good.

[Ironhat 0]

Once again thanks for all the replies. It's refreshing to post what to me is a problem with a game and get only mature answers.

It's much clearer now as to what is going on here. I guess due the the touchy nature of these old birds it just seems more magnifed even than what i experienced in CFS3 although even there i had a hard time nursing P-47 over 10,000 while the 109's flew over head mixing it up with my fellow pilots.

 

I intend to stick with OFF and learn as many of these old crates as i can,

Keep the sun at your back and keep checking six !

[Winston DoRight 3]

Ironhat, I still have the instructions to make and modify the AI planes in the original CFS3 to carry the extra weight of the pilot and fuel if you're still flying that and are interested. It's a hard, long and tedious process but in the end you'll have AI enemy that carry the weight of the pilot and fuel, making them perform more accurately.

 

Let me know if you want this and I'll try scanning it.

[gaw 5]

good on ya'....bullethead has the right end of the stick.....it's GREAT that the AI have an edge.....years of practice and return engagements the the "other side" never will have gives us an unthinkable advantage in the long run....ask any Las Vegas odds maker....play the long game and you'll win every time....been at it 15 years or more and IMHO OFF has it as well balanced as anything out there......not to mention "workshops" gives you all the variations on theme you could ask for......WELCOME!!!!