TrackIR - Image tearing at monitor edges

[+Winder 32]

Winder,

 

The companies name is Blue Tek in Potchefstroom @ 018 2970164. Ask to speak to Sanet and tell her you got her number from me. She knows everything (well almost).

 

I will give her a phone call and tell her that you might phone her. I asked her this morning to get me a price on Corsair 256 gig SSD.

 

The Intel i have installed are 2 x INTEL X25-M SATA SSD 80 gig.

 

or

 

go to www.jump.co.za - search solid state drive.

 

http://www.jump.co.z...b-2-5-17970.htm

 

Select the best price and deliver it like a pizza at home

 

Cheers

 

m

 

Thanks I am in JHB so will search for something closer to home but the part type info is great.

 

Ta

 

WM

[rabu 9]

I may be mistaken, but it seems the more complex the pipe layout, the more prone to develop leaks. Leaks that the most experienced plumbers are baffled by.

 

How just the addition of a 512MB Card, replacing one of 256MB, was my solution to the Jaggies.

 

But as video systems became more sofisticated, that simple solution became non-effective

 

 

Hi, Uncleal, not sure what you are saying... you have a water cooled system?

[rabu 9]

Getting a bit hot in here, but I think we're all after the same answer, right?

 

The point is that something(s) common to having tearing while using TrackIR seems to be happening, right? Tamper and Morris say they don't have them and both are using TIR Could be the SSD's are what eliminated the problem or something related from using them? The reason I say that is that some others, who don't have SSD's don't get the tearing.. why? If we could figure out why, maybe expensive SSD's wouldn't be necessary as a fix?

 

I'm really curious about this, how about a pol? I'm going to start on on who has this and who doesn't and ask that you each give full specs.. maybe something will emerge.

[Over50 0]

For folks like me where gaming is the prime reason for owning a PC, spending +$200 for just 60GB of storage is next to useless when you factor in W7's foot print and games today averaging up to 10 to 13 GB in size which leaves little room for office type applications, security and other utility apps. In terms of storage to even get within shouting distance of my 300 GB Raptor a 250 GB SSD would have cost over 3 times as much here in the states. That's a heck of price premium to gain a few milliseconds of processing time. Or in the case of OFF, fly with no jaggies that are present when using TIR...

Edited May 27, 2010 by Over50

[BirdDogICT 3]

Parky, or some one.. please comment about power supply capibilities related to all this.

 

And the problem is that PS companies can be very misleading about their products stressing watts over current, much like the audio amplifiers manufactures like to mislead consumers stressing power out, but not talking about at what load, whether the dual outputs are in parallel, are regulated seperately, etc.

 

Any comments?

Rabu,

 

You've identified a common problem...more consumers are trying to upgrade their graphics cards or build systems without sufficient power. At least nVidia and ATI are finally posting recommended PSU wattage AND amperage draw for their cards (summarized here: http://forum-en.msi....?topic=104805.0 Keep in mind that the recommended PSU wattages are for non overclocked minimal system hardware setup. Usually one HDD/Optical, no sound card or other add-in cards, simple case fan and CPU cooler, minimal RAM. The recommendations at least give the consumer a starting point. Additional devices, like quad core CPUs, or overclocking have a significant impact on amperage draw.).

 

Sure would be nice if PSU manufacturers stepped up to the plate and proviced similar specs. My guess is that they don't for a simple reason: most PSU brands are actually private labeled, that is, manufactured by someone else (see here: http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/?tag=PSU_Manufacturers). The private label companies don't do much testing, and may not actually know how their equipment operates under load (even if they did test the PSUs, there aren't reliable industry test standards). Some inflate their power ratings in order to gain market advantage: advertising peak power, stating continuous output power capability at room temperature of 25C rather than the typical 40C temp inside a case, and advertising total power as a measure of capacity, when modern systems are almost totally reliant on the current available from the 12 volt line(s).

 

It pays to read the specs. If they're complete, there's a better chance that they actually did some testing and aren't inflated by industry "specmanship". My experience is that the the higher priced OEMs represent a pretty good value. Private label electronics can carry a 10-100% price premium depending on distribution channel.

Edited May 27, 2010 by BirdDogICT

[rabu 9]

And a high speed hard drive can consume 25-30 watts of your PS output.

[Tamper 9]

Getting a bit hot in here, but I think we're all after the same answer, right?

 

The point is that something(s) common to having tearing while using TrackIR seems to be happening, right? Tamper and Morris say they don't have them and both are using TIR Could be the SSD's are what eliminated the problem or something related from using them? The reason I say that is that some others, who don't have SSD's don't get the tearing.. why? If we could figure out why, maybe expensive SSD's wouldn't be necessary as a fix?

 

I'm really curious about this, how about a pol? I'm going to start on on who has this and who doesn't and ask that you each give full specs.. maybe something will emerge.

 

 

Rabu,

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your approach. I did have comment, though:

 

1. I didn't say at any point that I use TIR. Nor did I attempt in any way to imply that I did - so if that's anyone's impression, to be fair, it's 'self-induced'. What I have said is that I had both triangles and stuttering, even after the 'most common' upgrades, and SSD's eliminated that problem. I don't know that Morris said he uses TIR either (although I haven't searched extensively).

 

2. Some people who don't have TIR also do have the triangles. All by itself, this tells me it cannot be an issue exclusively with TIR, yet that's been stated here several times. I believe it is more an issue of 'resources', which is aggravated by whatever load TIR places on the system. And, as you said, it might be that using SSDs successfully addresses that problem.

 

3. (Perhaps more observation) - You say that some people 'dont get the tearing' - and I think your observation is accurate; that is actually what they say. However, I think there's always has been at least some lack of objectivity with regard to people's observations concerning how OFF runs. At the end of the day, you'd have to admit these observations - including mine and Morris' - are subjective, by definition (not talking about the benchmark numbers here). And, after all, what guy who just spent $2000 upgrading his PC is going to admit that all the money he just spent didn't do what he thought it would? (How often do you see a post saying "I just bought myself two brand new GTX295 video cards, and boy do they suck total a$$" ?)

 

Regards,

[BirdDogICT 3]

And a high speed hard drive can consume 25-30 watts of your PS output.

I could have included SSDs in the list, but didn't want to step on anyone's toes

[Von Paulus 8]

I cannot, unfortunately, comment on this topic.

I've never tried out a SSD, still too expensive. What I hear, what I read, with different games, in other forums, is that most people think it's beneficial and reduce a lot of stuttering. But I too have to confess, that I am a bit skeptical, about the SSD hype. Besides I don't see OFF accessing much the HD during the game.

However I don't have any reason to doubt Tamper and Morris. So I'll have to accept their conclusions and hope for the day the price will fall.

Now I ask what about a single SSD. What kind of performance can we expect?

 

What I don't understand is the aggressiveness that was displayed in this thread. Surely people can have different opinions.

I speaking for myself, like to hear what other fellows have to say about technical matters. I've been working in the field for more than 20 years and I've already learn a few things here, with people like Parky, Tamper, BirDogICT, almccoyjr, etc. I'm really very thankful to you gentleman.

[Morris 2]

Gentlemen,

 

I play OFF with a TrackIR 5. I have tried any possible upgrade since nov 09 to lose the OFF stutters (loading time during close combat) and the screen tearing.

After is installed a set off SSD (raid) their are no stutters during close combat an hardly any tearing.

 

I gave everybody advise about my system for the improvements playing OFF.

 

So nobody is stepping on any bodies toes.

 

Over and out.

 

M

[Over50 0]

This thread has become an apples to oranges comparison discussion as far as I'm concerned - and I started this thread with the topic header "TrackIR - Image tearing at monitor edges".

 

As I read it here's what it has come down to:

 

One person has reported "hardly any tearing" (which infers some still exists) using TIR after installing a SSD,

 

One person who uses TIR (if I read correctly) reports no image tearing since installing 2 SSD's,

 

One person who doesn't use TIR (if I read correctly) reported no image tearing with SSD's - which infers he did using the game default view panning,

 

And then there's the majority of us who have stated no image tearing using the game default view panning but have since they started using TIR which spans versions 3,4 and 5.

 

The only commonality is no commonality where no two subsystems are identical in tandem with or without TIR. The only constant if I've read correctly is not one person has experienced similar OFF image tearing in any other game using TIR nor any when using the OFF default view panning w/o TIR.

 

I would think the conclusion should be obvious....

Edited May 27, 2010 by Over50

[Tamper 9]

Over50, I've stated quite plainly several times I did have stutters and "tearing" after all the usual upgrades (CPU, memory, etc.) but they stopped when I installed SSDs. Granted, I do not use TIR - but then, I never said I did.

 

Morris does use TIR, and noticed a big difference when he went to SSDs. He has now re-affirmed that, several times. (I could infer the balance of the tearing - the 'hardly any" that everyone will now jump all over - could easily be attributed to any number of other factors).

 

Point is all those other things didn't address the tearing or stutters like the SSDs did, dollar-for-dollar.

 

Finally, as to the "heat" and "aggressiveness" in this thread...can't help but feel these comments are directed at me.

 

I think if you look back, you'll note the "first shot" was fired by someone saying the experiences Morris and I reported were "overhyped". Essentially, we're both being dismissed, our experiences and input to this discussion thrown out, because God forbid our experiences don't agree with someone's opinion.

 

You'll note I say "opinion", because the "overhyped" remark was made by someone who doesn't even own SSDs, and therefore really can't have much experience in this area to contribute. I even posted further corroboration, and further still offered that the cost argument was negated by the fact that many spend more for a video card.

 

I - we (Morris and I) present facts, figures, supporting discussion...and get nothing but guff for daring to disagree.

 

Now, let me ask you: How would you like to be treated that way?

Edited May 27, 2010 by Tamper

[Von Paulus 8]

Finally, as to the "heat" and "aggressiveness" in this thread...can't help but feel these comments are directed at me.

Not really directed to you Tamper. If it was just directly to you I'd have stated your name.

I was referring to the general tone that the thread seemed to turn out between OFFer mates.

 

Now, let me ask you: How would you like to be treated that way?

I'll PM you. This is going to be off topic any way.

 

EDIT: By the way I still would like to year your opinion about the performance difference between a solo and a RAID array.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Von Paulus

[Hellshade 110]

Well I don't wish to speak for anyone else but the 'overhyped' remark MAY have been directed at the computer sales industry as a whole, which tends to market every new gadget as the end all be all new tech toy that you must have. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they overstate the facts a bit. While I expect it, some folks - after having been burned for a few hundred dollars or more on something tend to get a little jaded about product hype. Maybe I'm wrong, I at least didn't take the Overhyped remark as a direct assault on your integrity or opinion. Just a statement about the industry as a whole. Of course I am not the person to answer that question definately, either.

 

Having said that, this particular thread is about Image tearing at monitor edges when using TrackIR. I don't doubt that a shiny new SSD drive fixes stuttering on games. The question is does it help with image tearing at the far right and leftside of the screen when turning your head quickly from side to side using a TrackIR. It seems Morrison (I believe) is the only person who has both SSD and TrackIR. Nobody else does, including you and I. What I would love to see is a 30 second FRAPS video from him quickly turning his head side to side over green fields on a relatively clear blue sky. If those nefarious triangles don't show up, then we probably have a winner. The higher the resolution of the video and the higher the terrain settings, the better. I'm personally not out to prove or disprove any theory. I'm just trying to find out what works. If he could be bothered to post such a video it would really help alot, because I have no stuttering or tearing on my machine either except when turning left and right quickly with TrackIR. The difference then would be the SSD for the most part and likely settle the matter quickly, hopefully without any hard feelings.

 

Hellshade

[+Polovski 458]

Tamper which model of SSDs did you go for ?

[Hellshade 110]

Here's a quick note of probably support for the SSD solutions. I noticed that the TrackIR tearing is not nearly as apparent when flying and turning my head WITHOUT recording the video to my hard drive using FRAPS. As soon as I turn FRAPS video recording on, the tearing definately increases a bit. That would highly suggest to me that HD access time is at least in some way a part of the TrackIR edge of the screen tearing issue. Which is a bummer, because I really don't happen to have $200 for an 80GB SSD right now.

 

Hellshade

[BirdDogICT 3]

Well I don't wish to speak for anyone else but the 'overhyped' remark MAY have been directed at the computer sales industry as a whole, which tends to market every new gadget as the end all be all new tech toy that you must have. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they overstate the facts a bit. Just a statement about the industry as a whole.

Hellshade,

 

You are spot on...I was talking about the industry as a whole. No insult intended. As Von Paulus stated, many of us enjoy the differing viewpoints of the users here, including Parky, Von Paulus, Morris, Tamper, Almccoyjr, UncleAl, and many others. I learn something new everytime I tune in to one of these discussions.

 

Keep in mind that my "overhyped" comment was from my professional perspective. As a former marketing director in the electronics industry, I spent a lot of time specing new electronic products with engineers, going to trade shows, sorting through press releases, and trying to decipher the hype of my competitors (so I could deliver my own overhyped marketing messages with a straight face ).

 

I've seen a lot of promising technologies come and go. From what I've gathered here and elsewhere, SSDs show a lot of promise and I'll consider one if and when the price comes down and I can see some clear benefit in my PC applications. I'd love to have one to evaluate. Thanks, Morris & Tamper for sharing your knowledge.

[Over50 0]

Over50, I've stated quite plainly several times I did have stutters and "tearing" after all the usual upgrades (CPU, memory, etc.) but they stopped when I installed SSDs. Granted, I do not use TIR - but then, I never said I did.

 

Morris does use TIR, and noticed a big difference when he went to SSDs. He has now re-affirmed that, several times. (I could infer the balance of the tearing - the 'hardly any" that everyone will now jump all over - could easily be attributed to any number of other factors).

 

Point is all those other things didn't address the tearing or stutters like the SSDs did, dollar-for-dollar.

 

Finally, as to the "heat" and "aggressiveness" in this thread...can't help but feel these comments are directed at me.

 

I think if you look back, you'll note the "first shot" was fired by someone saying the experiences Morris and I reported were "overhyped". Essentially, we're both being dismissed, our experiences and input to this discussion thrown out, because God forbid our experiences don't agree with someone's opinion.

 

You'll note I say "opinion", because the "overhyped" remark was made by someone who doesn't even own SSDs, and therefore really can't have much experience in this area to contribute. I even posted further corroboration, and further still offered that the cost argument was negated by the fact that many spend more for a video card.

 

I - we (Morris and I) present facts, figures, supporting discussion...and get nothing but guff for daring to disagree.

 

Now, let me ask you: How would you like to be treated that way?

 

Frankly I don't feel any of the comments made so far remotely constitute "heat" and "aggressiveness" unless one feels personally slighted by others expressing doubt as to SSD's performance. There have been no personal attacks implied or otherwise from what I've read, which then would constiture heat and agressiveness in that context. Just because someone doesn't own/use a SSD doesn't relegate their reserved skepticism comments as confrontational.

Maybe it's time to end this thread before someone really does get their shorts in a bind..

[rabu 9]

Will you all please check out the poll I just posted and fill out as much info as possible.. maybe it will all start making more sense when things are put in perspective with facts.

[Tamper 9]

Pol - I use OCZ Vertex drives; the "second gen" models with the Indilinx controllers (opposed to the crap JMicron in their first gen drives - which, incidentally, was responsible for a lot of the bad rep SSDs got at first. Both Intel and OCZ have *drastically* improved the areas of shortcomings with their SSD drives. Also why Morris specifies carefully the Intel "M" drives, if I'm not mistaken).

 

Over50 - the terms "heated" and "aggressive" were not my words; those were posted by others - so it must've been *their* perception - not mine. I was not 'heated' nor aggressive; more what I'd call "spirited" and "deliberate". That said, I'm also not going to sit by, idle, while someone refuses to accept an entire industry full of empirical data just because they've not done any actual empirical study themselves.

 

I have done the study, and have the results to show for it. So has Morris, and you see his endorsement. Seems to me that those questioning the SSD performance advantage here are all the ones who *don't* have any first-hand experience with it. Isn't that curious to anyone but me?

 

Now, for the question of whether the 'overhyped' comment was made with reference to the industry: Yes, I understand the industry does that - as BirdDog as pointed out, usually via marketing. Believe me, I know the industry pretty well after 30 years.

 

But what it seems no one understands is that, just because the market overhypes something does not mean that Morris or I would have any reason at all to do so - especially not here. Doesn't anyone consider that we may just be trying to share something potentially important? Moreoever, something that we both have first-hand, recent, real-world experience with, in OFF?

 

In other words, why is the assumption that we are both also guilty of the industry's supposed over-hyping? I can't speak for Morris, but I'm a professional, trained technician with a few decades experience. I don't 'hype', I measure. I don't assume, I test. I analyze the empirical data - and sometimes the anecdotal as well. In any case, I am trained to be skeptical of hype, and I don't give out advice I can't prove.

 

Yet folks here assume that, because the industry is full of hype, then I must be, too (and Morris). Sorry, that's just unfair.

 

Hellshade - I agree completely with the idea you've proposed re: the FRAPS video test. I would've pointed out, though that (of course) you'd have to account for the additional load presented by FRAPS running. Obviously, you've realized this, as in your following post you mention the factor of recording using FRAPS worsening the effect. And, I think you're spot-on in your observation that this strongly suggests there is a definite relationship between the 'tearing' and the relative performance of the mass media storage subsystem. All I can say is God bless those willing to be objective, forget about "industry hype" and all that, and just think logically

 

Oh, and to Von Paulus - last but certainly not least: I believe a single SSD would help; running two or more in RAID array will help more. A good, genuine hardware RAID controller will help even more. As I said earlier, I did my testing on all this in 'stages' - with one platter-based drive, then w/ one SSD, then platter-based RAID0, and finally SSD RAID0. Each stage showed it's own, measurable improvement.

 

Although I would be happy to share the detailed results with you, I regretfully cannot address the question of 'tearing' as specifically caused by TIR, because I don't use it. What I can definitely say, though, is I also had both tearing and stutters - even without TIR - after upgrading CPU (to an e8400 o/c'd to 3.7G), video card (to a GTX260core216), and memory (4G Crucial Ballistix PC2/6400), all on an eVGA780iFW board. In fact, I even tried SLI for a while (let's not get me started about how wrong people are about SLI)...but NONE of this really overcame the problem with stutters and tearing.

 

When I put in the SSDs - even before I bought the hardware RAID controller I now use - the stutters and triangles were history.

 

Finally, for all the cost-v-storage size arguments: Folks, that's really a losing argument. You don't buy SSD's for volume, you buy them for speed. And they deliver, trust me. This is why I still use a regular set of platter-based drives for all my other stuff that doesn't require the fast access times that the SSDs offer. That 60G volume is reserved for only the most demanding of apps (so far, OFF is the only thing installed there...I own RoF, which could benefit from SSDs in the load time area, but I took that game off my drive and may well never look back)

 

And the best part? While your hot-rod, $300+ video card won't do a darn thing for Windows boot time or program loading times...the SSDs will, and they also make a huge difference with OFF. But they aren't limited to helping with OFF, by any means - so you can't judge the cost as something that's only going to benefit this one game. It benefits the entire computer, in a lot of ways.

 

If your financial situation prohibits your buying SSDs, I can completely relate. I certainly am not criticizing you for being unable to afford them, at all. But I do take issue with those who won't admit the advantages are real, not hype. Measurable, not just subjective. And (assuming you can even afford them at all) continuing the argument that they're not cost effective - they are, they're just not something you buy for space.

 

You want space for storage, buy a tractor-trailer. You want speed? Buy a Lamborghini. Neither is intended to do what the other does best.

 

Best to all.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Tamper

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

An enlightening and spirited debate I must say. I've no doubt that SSD's will improve the performance of such memory hogs as OFF. Any time you can not only speed up memory operations but also improve the volume and velocity of flow into and out of your storage facilities you will see marked improvements in overall system performance.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

.

[Tamper 9]

Hi Lou...having read your post over on the poll thread/same topic, I am absolutely fascinated. While you seem to have a fairly conservative hardware setup - C2D CPU w/no o/c; non-GTX series GPU; single drive setup (not counting the paging file drive)/ no RAID or SSD) - you report having no problem at all with the 'tearing'.

 

So, questions, then, if you please: Did you ever have a time when you did have problems with either stuttering or tearing?

 

Also, if you had to say, which one(s) of the factors listed in your comprehensive spec posting would be most responsible for the lack of stutters/tearing? Or, to put it another way...if we wanted to *cause* your rig to have stutters or tearing, what setting(s), value(s) etc would you say we should change to 'force it to break'?

 

I hope you can indulge these questions, and that they are clearly enough expressed that you see what I'm asking. - Thanks in advance.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Tamper

[Tamper 9]

Thinking back to an earlier post, "Let anyone among us stand up and declare that they use TrackIR in this game, have their detail settings reasonably high, and never, ever see a blue square or triangle at the edge of their screen.....then watch me call that someone a liar."

 

There are now two people who emphatically state they use TIR with absolutely no tearing whatsoever.

 

If we accept that these two people's reports are accurate, then it certainly seems to indicate that using TIR does not automatically mean you will have tearing.

 

This subject gets more interesting by the moment, to me.

 

- Regards

[Creaghorn 10]

at least on my rig the tearing was reduced greatly by increasing AA. especially since using nhancer with AA/AF combined. almost no tearing at all. of course it slows down overall performance, but with a better rig that might be the solution.

tearing happens more often near airfields and near towns.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Tamper wrote:

 

Hi Lou...having read your post over on the poll thread/same topic, I am absolutely fascinated. While you seem to have a fairly conservative hardware setup - C2D CPU w/no o/c; non-GTX series GPU; single drive setup (not counting the paging file drive)/ no RAID or SSD) - you report having no problem at all with the 'tearing'.

 

So, questions, then, if you please: Did you ever have a time when you did have problems with either stuttering or tearing?

 

Also, if you had to say, which one(s) of the factors listed in your comprehensive spec posting would be most responsible for the lack of stutters/tearing? Or, to put it another way...if we wanted to *cause* your rig to have stutters or tearing, what setting(s), value(s) etc would you say we should change to 'force it to break'?

 

I hope you can indulge these questions, and that they are clearly enough expressed that you see what I'm asking. - Thanks in advance.

 

 

Hi Tamper,

 

Let’s see if I can answer your questions clearly for you Sir.

 

First of all, yes, I have had numerous occasions in the past when video tearing was very much an issue, and I have whittled away at the problem pretty much along the following course:

 

1. Set display properties to 1600 x1200 x32 and bumped refresh rate of monitor to 85hz. Very noticeable reduction of tearing and stutter.

 

2. Updated nVidia card drivers and set AA to 16x. Further noticeable reduction of tearing and stutter though much less so than in #1.

 

3. Manually set limits of paging file and changed Windows visual settings to performance rather than quality. Very, very minor reduction of tearing and stutter.

 

4. Overclocked the CPU to 3.8 via ASUS tweaker. Stuttering gone completely, but some minor tearing still present in normal flight when moving head quickly.

 

5. Overclocked memory to 890mhz via ASUS tweaker. Very minor reduction of tearing.

 

6. Set program priorities for OFF and TIR to “high”. Tearing gone except for small amount when turning head quickly during very large furballs or over dense terrain, (i.e. the Alsace).

 

7. Moved sliders from 5-4-4-5-5 to 5-3-3-3-3. Tearing gone during all situations.

 

8. Installed nHancer program and tweaked video card to settings as listed in cited post, and pushed sliders to 5-4-4-4-4. Tearing gone during all situations, (but would come back a bit if I set sliders higher).

 

9. Old Seagate 500 GB HD crashed. Installed dual Western Digital 640 GB Caviar Black SATA's and new 900 watt power supply. Reinstalled everything, updated all drivers, and got settings backed to those outlined. Set up second HD for paging file only. Set sliders to 5-4-4-5-5. No tearing or stuttering of any kind no matter what the situation in the sim.

 

I can and do have tearing issues if I do not defrag the HD’s regularly, if I do not set the noted program priorities to high, and if I do not regularly clean my case filters and CPU cooling fins, (BTW, I run three very large case fans in addition to the fans in the PS, which keeps the operating temps in the 75F to 85F range under full load). I can also make the tearing return if I lower my screen resolution and/or AA settings, and I can initiate stuttering issues by changing the profile in TrackIR to something quicker and more “aggressive”. So far the “Smooth” profile seems to give me the best results in this regard.

 

Hope this outline is useful Tamper.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

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