What I'd like to see in Phase IV

[Hellshade 110]

Well there definately seems to be a huge consensus on adding lots of AI only controlled 2 seaters (at first!) to fill the skies. I would throw my vote behind that idea as well but with one little note. I'm not sure it's fair ask them to push out P4 with a bunch of AI controlled planes, but then sort of "expect" that they will patch it later with all of the tremendous amount of work that it must take to make them flyable, all at no cost. Yes, they have been incredibly generous in the past with patches and support, but it's easy for us to wish and a hell of a lot of work for them to do.

 

To be honest, if we are hoping for a large variety of 2 seaters, I would suggest possibly making them AI only initially and with the option later on of purchasing a "flyable 2 seater" upgrade add on-pack. Even then, I wonder how many people would actually purchase it. I think perhaps (pure speculation, no proof to back it up at all - so somebody should probably make a poll to find out) that the majority of OFF:BH&H sim pilots are most eager to hop into and fly a fighter. Perhaps if they were to get enough pre-orders for it, they would consider then creating such an add-on. Otherwise, if the demand for them to be flown isn't strong enough to make it worth the tremendous amount of time it would take to make them player flyable, they would just leave it at that. As a possible compromise, perhaps make just one or two new 2 seaters flyable and the rest AI only.

 

And let us please not forget that most of us in the community are also already clamoring for more early war fighters to face against the EIII. If they were to take the time to build a number of early scouts as well as a bunch of different two seaters, they have to research all the squadron and Ace paint schemes (which by necessity means finding all of the aces that flew them), the squadron locations at various times throughout the war, etc, the flight and damage models for each different type of plane they add - then balance it all to work with the existing craft. If we hope to see P4 before the Mayan calander runs out, we may wish to think about scale.

 

Of course, like everyone else, I want it all. I'm just trying to figure out how we can balance our desires with the amount of time and effort it will take for the Devs to create it and a price point that makes it worth their time.

 

Hellshade

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

Well there definately seems to be a huge consensus on adding lots of AI only controlled 2 seaters (at first!) to fill the skies. I would throw my vote behind that idea as well but with one little note. I'm not sure it's fair ask them to push out P4 with a bunch of AI controlled planes, but then sort of "expect" that they will patch it later with all of the tremendous amount of work that it must take to make them flyable, all at no cost. Yes, they have been incredibly generous in the past with patches and support, but it's easy for us to wish and a hell of a lot of work for them to do.

 

To be honest, if we are hoping for a large variety of 2 seaters, I would suggest possibly making them AI only initially and with the option later on of purchasing a "flyable 2 seater" upgrade add on-pack. Even then, I wonder how many people would actually purchase it. I think perhaps (pure speculation, no proof to back it up at all - so somebody should probably make a poll to find out) that the majority of OFF:BH&H sim pilots are most eager to hop into and fly a fighter. Perhaps if they were to get enough pre-orders for it, they would consider then creating such an add-on. Otherwise, if the demand for them to be flown isn't strong enough to make it worth the tremendous amount of time it would take to make them player flyable, they would just leave it at that. As a possible compromise, perhaps make just one or two new 2 seaters flyable and the rest AI only.

 

And let us please not forget that most of us in the community are also already clamoring for more early war fighters to face against the EIII. If they were to take the time to build a number of early scouts as well as a bunch of different two seaters, they have to research all the squadron and Ace paint schemes (which by necessity means finding all of the aces that flew them), the squadron locations at various times throughout the war, etc, the flight and damage models for each different type of plane they add - then balance it all to work with the existing craft. If we hope to see P4 before the Mayan calander runs out, we may wish to think about scale.

 

Of course, like everyone else, I want it all. I'm just trying to figure out how we can balance our desires with the amount of time and effort it will take for the Devs to create it and a price point that makes it worth their time.

 

Hellshade

 

I guess I'll just come out and say "I strongly dislike the idea of two-seaters which are not player-flyable."

 

part of what makes OFF so interesting for me is that if there's an aircraft featured in the game you can most definitely build a pilot career around it.

 

I know that most people here love flying fighters-- and that's perfectly understandable-- but this sense of scale that's been addressed prompts me to ask for two-seaters. there were more two-seaters out in the sky than any other type of plane. scouts/fighters were invented with the specific purpose of thwarting or destroying enemy two-seaters. on top of all of that many of the best aces of the war died at the hands of skilled two-seater crews....

 

and for the first year or so of the war-- scouts didn't even exist!

 

I've already made lots of impassioned arguments in favor of more French two-seaters like the Voisin, Salmson 2a2, and Morane Parasol. I don't want to revisit those specific arguments right now, no matter how strong I feel the case for them may be.

 

I just find myself losing that sense of "immersion" when I'm flying an Albatros D.Va or a Fokker D.VII in the summer of 1918 and find myself mercilessly sending Sopwith Strutters down in flames when I know full well that this was most certainly NOT being used in large numbers by ANY air force on the Western Front. seeing dozens of Nieuports in 1916 in Alsace when we should be seeing dozens of Farmans or Voisins is also a bit disconcerting.

 

the Snipe, Pfalz D.XII, S.S. D.III, and Dolphin were all very fine aircraft-- but most of these only saw action in the last half of 1918!

 

likewise, earlier in the war-- to not see a single German two-seater until March 1916 seems very odd!

 

I am very grateful for all of the hard work that has made Over Flanders Fields possible. I just don't want the development team to lose sight of their original vision-- part of which, I believe, was that if the aircraft showed up in the game at all-- you could fly it.

[Hellshade 110]

I guess I'll just come out and say "I strongly dislike the idea of two-seaters which are not player-flyable."

 

I am very grateful for all of the hard work that has made Over Flanders Fields possible. I just don't want the development team to lose sight of their original vision-- part of which, I believe, was that if the aircraft showed up in the game at all-- you could fly it.

 

Very valid points sir. Perhaps fewer new aircraft in P4, more of them 2 seaters and all of them flyable, with purchasable plane packs or expansions available at a later date?

 

Hellshade

[Hasse Wind 46]

It's going to be interesting to see with what kind of a selection of planes P4 will be released. Will we be getting all the planes we currently have in P3 + HitR, or will it be something different?

 

It's good that there seems to be a consensus among OFFers here that the sim really needs more 2-seaters. The lack of two-seaters is the most obvious historical omission in P3.

 

That's why I'm willing to accept even two-seaters that are not flyable by humans at first, if it will make the development process faster. If not, then obviously there's no reason to wish for such AI-only aircraft. Instead of adding planes like the Snipe and the Siemens-Schuckert in the "vanilla" P4, the resources would be better spend in a couple of common two-seaters that saw considerable use during the war. While those late war fighters are fun to have and fly, their importance from the point of view of the single player campaign mode is really insignificant. What's the use of a plane that saw use only for a few weeks in a war that lasted over four years? For MP, which is not the strong side of OFF, things are of course different, because you won't be playing a long career mode but single combat against other humans, and a good selection of fighter planes will be the most important factor.

[Vasco 3]

For MP, which is not the strong side of OFF, things are of course different, because you won't be playing a long career mode but single combat against other humans, and a good selection of fighter planes will be the most important factor.

 

Sorry Hasse Wind, that's simply not the case.

 

Although the regular MP campaign missions are currently suspended, the MP community has more than enough fighter aircraft to be able to fly any period of the war and make it challenging. We usually fly a series of contiguous missions for a single squadron, ecadrille or jasta as part of an online campaign lasting anywhere between 1 month to 4 months real time. In the last campaign we flew for 24 Sqn RFC (DH2s) and had a detatchment of 3 Sopwith 1/2 Strutters in the mix for strike missions - and those were the first aircraft to be grabbed by the online players. It is the lack of flyable 2-seaters that is as frustrating in MP as it is in SP campaigns, hence my reluctance to accept a 'compromise' that any new 2-seaters be made AI only even initially. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that once the aircraft model itself is complete, there are only the cockpit files to add to make the aircraft crewable (please grab a developer or Stumpjumper for an exact explanation because the MP community has had to crawl around in the bowels of the aircraft files to get some aircraft flyable in MP).

 

Regards,

 

Vasco

[Winston DoRight 3]

............... For MP, which is not the strong side of OFF, things are of course different, because you won't be playing a long career mode but single combat against other humans, and a good selection of fighter planes will be the most important factor.

 

Good lord man. If you're going to speak for us multiplayers have the decency to join us just once to see what it's really all about. Our MP sessions are rarely against each other but rather in co-op mode on missions, campaigns and mini-campaigns. We are heavy into the use of 2 seaters and bombers. More of these are requested by our MP group rather than further tipping the scales with too many more scouts.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Sorry, I'm not interested in MP. And if I were, I'd rather play RoF than OFF, which is not based on a decade-old engine. The excellent single player career mode is the only reason why I like OFF so much. But whatever I may think about MP, it shouldn't be enough to make you guys angry. It's only a game, right?

 

Good to know you MP guys also want more two-seaters. It should make everybody happy if/when OBD decides to increase their numbers in P4.

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

 

 

I know that most people here love flying fighters-- and that's perfectly understandable-- but this sense of scale that's been addressed prompts me to ask for two-seaters. there were more two-seaters out in the sky than any other type of plane. scouts/fighters were invented with the specific purpose of thwarting or destroying enemy two-seaters. on top of all of that many of the best aces of the war died at the hands of skilled two-seater crews....

 

 

Waldemar Kurtz,

 

Sir you have got me interested with the statement that many of the best aces of the war died at the hands of skilled two seater crews.

 

Would it be possible to give a brief list of some of those aces, as I only know how a very few of the top aces died:

 

MVR - credited to Roy Brown, although now credited to Cedric Popkin

James McCudden - Engine failure

Werner Voss - Epic dogfight with "B" flight of 56 squadron and credited to Arthur Rhys Davids

Albert Ball - Engine failure although creidited by the germans to LVR

Frank Luke - shot down and then apparently took on the whole german army with a revolver, shot dead by an unknown german soldier(s)

Edward Mannock - hit by ground fire and crashlanded in flames between the lines after blooding Donald Inglis.

 

As I said my knowledge is very limited.

 

Thanks

Rugbyfan1972

[shredward 12]

I guess I'll just come out and say "I strongly dislike the idea of two-seaters which are not player-flyable."

 

part of what makes OFF so interesting for me is that if there's an aircraft featured in the game you can most definitely build a pilot career around it.

 

I know that most people here love flying fighters-- and that's perfectly understandable-- but this sense of scale that's been addressed prompts me to ask for two-seaters. there were more two-seaters out in the sky than any other type of plane. scouts/fighters were invented with the specific purpose of thwarting or destroying enemy two-seaters. on top of all of that many of the best aces of the war died at the hands of skilled two-seater crews....

 

and for the first year or so of the war-- scouts didn't even exist!

 

I've already made lots of impassioned arguments in favor of more French two-seaters like the Voisin, Salmson 2a2, and Morane Parasol. I don't want to revisit those specific arguments right now, no matter how strong I feel the case for them may be.

 

I just find myself losing that sense of "immersion" when I'm flying an Albatros D.Va or a Fokker D.VII in the summer of 1918 and find myself mercilessly sending Sopwith Strutters down in flames when I know full well that this was most certainly NOT being used in large numbers by ANY air force on the Western Front. seeing dozens of Nieuports in 1916 in Alsace when we should be seeing dozens of Farmans or Voisins is also a bit disconcerting.

 

the Snipe, Pfalz D.XII, S.S. D.III, and Dolphin were all very fine aircraft-- but most of these only saw action in the last half of 1918!

 

likewise, earlier in the war-- to not see a single German two-seater until March 1916 seems very odd!

 

I am very grateful for all of the hard work that has made Over Flanders Fields possible. I just don't want the development team to lose sight of their original vision-- part of which, I believe, was that if the aircraft showed up in the game at all-- you could fly it.

 

Hallo Waldemar,

I am going to have to take exception to one little niggle in your post - you having to send Strutter crews to their doom in the French sector in 1918. Unfortunately, that was the reality - there are no Strutter units Over Champagne Fields in 1918 that weren't there in reality, nor are there any there past their expiry date. In fact, we don't have all of the units present. That being said, I hope that one day we will be able to bookend the Strutters with their actual predecessors and antecedents.

That being said, we are still in deep developement of P4. We'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers,

shred

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

I used "best" to just hammer home the point that even good aces could get shot down (and killed) by two-seaters. if we're only going to look at in terms of the entire war-- then, no, we wouldn't have any of the "best aces" of the whole war-- but if we consider the time periods in which they fell, and the contexts of their death it becomes more clear.

 

 

Manfred von Richthofen was nearly klled by a two-seater pilot in the spring of 1917, as I'm sure most people here will already know. it was merely extraordinarily good luck that he lived long enough to die later.

 

Erwin Boehme (shot down by British two-seaters in November of 1917). he was not a very high-scoring pilot-- but he had the respect and friendship of Oswald Boelcke and Manfred von Richthofen. he's also the man who brought Jasta 2 out of it's doldrums in 1917 and made it one of the best German Jastas again.

 

Raoul Lufberry (the American ace-of-aces at the time of his death, was shot down by a two-seater in 1918)

 

Max Immelmann was likely shot down by an FE2b (two-seater) although there is debate on this point. what is not open for too much debate is that Immelmann was either the top-scoring German pilot at the time of his death, or a VERY close second. in fact, had he not been killed in action in his final battle-- he would have made the two additional claims that would have regained him the top-scoring fighter pilot status at that time.

 

Jean Navarre, the French ace of aces at the time he got shot down (with a head injury, much like Richthofen) was taken out of action by a two-seater.

 

Robert Little, the highest scoring RNAS pilot of the war at the time of his death-- was shot down and killed by a Gotha at night.

 

Wilhelm Frankl was killed in action against Bristol Fighters in April of 1917. at the time of his death Frankl had 20 victories. for a long time he was one of the top five German pilots active on the Western Front and a recipient of the Pour Le Merite.

 

Gustav Dorr was shot down in flames in May of 1918 by Bregeut XIVs on the 28th. had he not been so lucky he wouldn't have become a 35 victory ace by the end of the war.

 

Adolphe Pegoude, the very first French ace, was shot down by a two-seater crew-- ironically it was a pilot he helped train before the war that led to his death!

 

 

when you contextualize each death and major injury -- the significance of aces being killed or wounded by two-seaters becomes more important. Immellmann and Navarre are minor aces when compared to the huge tallies at the end of the war-- but in the spring of 1916 when both men were taken out of action while fighting enemy two-seaters, the impact was tremendous-- so much so that Boelcke was taken off active flight duties for fear of losing him in combat as well.

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

Hallo Waldemar,

I am going to have to take exception to one little niggle in your post - you having to send Strutter crews to their doom in the French sector in 1918. Unfortunately, that was the reality - there are no Strutter units Over Champagne Fields in 1918 that weren't there in reality, nor are there any there past their expiry date. In fact, we don't have all of the units present. That being said, I hope that one day we will be able to bookend the Strutters with their actual predecessors and antecedents.

That being said, we are still in deep developement of P4. We'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers,

shred

 

wow! that's really sad. I knew that the French were trying to pawn off a bunch of Strutters to the USAAF (who wisely decided that they were not worth using in front-line units)... but I didn't realize the French were still sending people out in those machines so late in the war... with the Fokker D.VIIs just arriving no less!

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

I used "best" to just hammer home the point that even good aces could get shot down (and killed) by two-seaters. if we're only going to look at in terms of the entire war-- then, no, we wouldn't have any of the "best aces" of the whole war-- but if we consider the time periods in which they fell, and the contexts of their death it becomes more clear.

 

 

Manfred von Richthofen was nearly klled by a two-seater pilot in the spring of 1917, as I'm sure most people here will already know. it was merely extraordinarily good luck that he lived long enough to die later.

 

Erwin Boehme (shot down by British two-seaters in November of 1917). he was not a very high-scoring pilot-- but he had the respect and friendship of Oswald Boelcke and Manfred von Richthofen. he's also the man who brought Jasta 2 out of it's doldrums in 1917 and made it one of the best German Jastas again.

 

Raoul Lufberry (the American ace-of-aces at the time of his death, was shot down by a two-seater in 1918)

 

Max Immelmann was likely shot down by an FE2b (two-seater) although there is debate on this point. what is not open for too much debate is that Immelmann was either the top-scoring German pilot at the time of his death, or a VERY close second. in fact, had he not been killed in action in his final battle-- he would have made the two additional claims that would have regained him the top-scoring fighter pilot status at that time.

 

Jean Navarre, the French ace of aces at the time he got shot down (with a head injury, much like Richthofen) was taken out of action by a two-seater.

 

Robert Little, the highest scoring RNAS pilot of the war at the time of his death-- was shot down and killed by a Gotha at night.

 

Wilhelm Frankl was killed in action against Bristol Fighters in April of 1917. at the time of his death Frankl had 20 victories. for a long time he was one of the top five German pilots active on the Western Front and a recipient of the Pour Le Merite.

 

Gustav Dorr was shot down in flames in May of 1918 by Bregeut XIVs on the 28th. had he not been so lucky he wouldn't have become a 35 victory ace by the end of the war.

 

Adolphe Pegoude, the very first French ace, was shot down by a two-seater crew-- ironically it was a pilot he helped train before the war that led to his death!

 

 

when you contextualize each death and major injury -- the significance of aces being killed or wounded by two-seaters becomes more important. Immellmann and Navarre are minor aces when compared to the huge tallies at the end of the war-- but in the spring of 1916 when both men were taken out of action while fighting enemy two-seaters, the impact was tremendous-- so much so that Boelcke was taken off active flight duties for fear of losing him in combat as well.

 

Waldemar Kurtz,

 

Thank you for supplying this information, although, I knew about MVR being shot down and wounded in 1917, I was reading your post as aces that had been shot down and killed by 2 seater crews (I had also forgotten about Roaul Lufberry).

 

The information you have supplied is much appreciated and has increased my knowlede of some of the lesser known aces.

 

Thanks

Rugbyfan1972

[+Polovski 458]

BTW MVR was shot down or forced down twice by British 2-seater pilots as far as I know. JFM may be able to verify. So even more luck that he lived to get more kills!