What is the #1 feature you would like to see in P4?

[themightysrc 5]

I'm happy with this suggestion, and previous ones that enforce more strict AI rules regarding their breaking off from an encounter - it sounds good, and in tandem, they should prevent the bloodbaths that occur at present.

 

I wonder how we'd all now fare with RB3D, if we were still flying it? I suspect we'd all rack up three figure tallies without problems!

[Creaghorn 10]

ususally there is red out and black out when spinning too much.

i would create a exhaution counter (actually one already exists). i would link it the way, that the longer i fly, the more the screen very slowly turns into a blackout (maybe after an hour or two the egdes are not visible anymore), simulating exhaustion.

when experiencing g-forces and hard manouvers (dogfight), the screen blacking should occure faster. similar like when spinning, just much slower of course. same for AI. so when fighting several minutes with lot of throwing the AC about, diving etc., the vision should get more and more tunnel like within the minutes. and then the simmer would decide, ok, enough for today instead of beeing a terminator.

as soon as the flight calms down and he continues the patrol or flies home, the tunnelvision should slowly open again. so if you fight too much, you will eventually only see something in the middle of the screen, emulating exhaustion and stress and therefor losing concentration. so you are more in danger of getting jumped at by a "fresh" enemy from somewhere else.

so eventually you will decide in time when to break from a fight instead of trying to make 5 kills.

 

maybe something like this.

 

 

[themightysrc 5]

"it would be the Italian and Eastern Fronts and all that those would entail."

 

Perhaps as an expansion pack to P4? Chuck in Palestine/Egypt and I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[Hellshade 110]

I think the amount of extra hit points the planes get in the replacement DM should probably be directly tied to one of the various Gun Strength multipliers in the Workshop setting. In other words, if the Strongest gun setting is 2x normal damage (for example), then the planes should be given double the amount of hit points in the unofficial Damage Model. That way anyone who already has trouble bringing down planes can automatically wash away the difference with one Workshop setting change while players looking for more realistic Kill tallys and dogfight outcomes will just keep guns set at Normal strength. Is that a reasonable suggestion?

 

I would love to see more planes heading back to base smoking and riddled with bullets, guns empty and fewer kills to their name.

 

So I guess these are my questions:

1. How many other people would be interested in a DM where the planes have more "hit points" so they are harder to be shot down, resulting in a lower kill tally?

2. Does anyone know for sure if the AI has Unlimited Ammo or they too are limited to 500 / 1000 rounds per plane?

3. How hard would it be to double (or whatever the Gun Strength multiplier is) the number of hit points in the 2.2 DM that HPW made to try this out (assuming enough people are intrested)?

 

Another feature of this that would help work to limit the Player kill tally would be that if they are flying on limited fuel and the dogfights take longer because the planes absorb more damage, they will have less fuel perhaps to keep flying around and engage in other fights.

 

Hellshade

Edited November 23, 2010 by Hellshade

[Bandy 3]

I'm amazed at the number of people mentioning that the AI needs to break off combat due to some sort of composite variable, such as a "morale check". I mentioned this years ago and nearly got laughed off the forum... Logically it shouldn't be too difficult, but its whether the game engine will support it is the rub.

 

From the P4 screenshots I've been able to see, the ground looks very nice, much more random, but I did not see whether the rivers have improved. They are all dreadful currently.

 

For me it would be the ability to navigate by the in-game map by looking at map and ground, ie rivers, large forests, roads, cities where they all should be.

[MikeDixonUK 5]

I've worked out what that 'strange feeling' I was on about is.

 

In other flight sims (IL2 for example) when you move the Aircraft the camera will shift slightly to simulate your head moving due to the forces - ie if you pull up sharply your head moves down, and likewise if you push down sharply your head moves up.

 

Wouldn't class it as being my number 1 requested feature as it's quite a minor thing realy and is probably a CFS3 issue anyway, but it's just one of those immersion things that makes it feel more like you're the Pilot in an Aircraft rather than a camera angle.

 

Just thought I'd clear up what I was gibbering on about before.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

OK, Hellshade. You have talked me into it--to a point.

 

I looked more into the xdp files and noticed a few areas where certain components, such as the nose and fuselage, can be strengthened. They are probably set too low right now. I can also increase the "failure" level for the wings so they won't get shot off anymore. After that, we can evaluate if we need to increase the hit levels for anything else.

 

Deal?

[Hellshade 110]

OK, Hellshade. You have talked me into it--to a point.

 

I looked more into the xdp files and noticed a few areas where certain components, such as the nose and fuselage, can be strengthened. They are probably set too low right now. I can also increase the "failure" level for the wings so they won't get shot off anymore. After that, we can evaluate if we need to increase the hit levels for anything else.

 

Deal?

 

Who am I to argue? Anything that makes it harder to shoot down planes will reduce player kills 2 ways. First, when it takes more ammo to shoot down planes, you obviously will shoot fewer down. Second, the longer the battle takes the more fuel you use up, which means you're less likely to be able to engage in multiple dogfights. Increasing the failure level of the wings sounds like a great idea too. I swear every time I shoot down a Spad XIII, the wings come off 100% of the time. At any rate, small steps are fine by me. You are doing all the work (and deserve all the credit for it) so whatever you choose to devote your time to I will appreciate sir. It's just that theory seems to make sense to me, so I'm glad to have the opportunity to test it. Thanks for looking into it!

 

Deal!

 

Hellshade

Edited November 24, 2010 by Hellshade

[Hasse Wind 46]

Interesting discussion and many great ideas.

 

AI improvements are always the toughest thing to program in any game. It's not easy to try to simulate the behaviour of human beings in combat situations. An AI pilot that tries to flee when it fails a morale check or something must be quite challenging to program. The retreat shouldn't make it too easy for player to shoot down AI planes, as has been mentioned in this thread. One solution for bombers and recon planes would be to make them protect each other better while disengaging at the same time. For example the defensive circle that the Fees used is one of the things I'd love to see (and historically it has been used by many other plane types when facing superior opponents, not only during WW1). For fighters, it would depend on the plane types of the retreating pilots and their opponents. For example when a flight of SPAD XIII's decides to disengage from enemy Albs, they can simply turn away (or dive) and use their superior speed to get away safely: no Albatros can keep up with them. But it can't be easy to make this a reality in a flight sim with so many different aircraft and periods of air combat with various doctrines and stuff. One can still day dream though.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Hasse Wind

[Hellshade 110]

Interesting discussion and many great ideas.

 

AI improvements are always the toughest thing to program in any game. It's not easy to try to simulate the behaviour of human beings in combat situations. An AI pilot that tries to flee when it fails a morale check or something must be quite challenging to program. The retreat shouldn't make it too easy for player to shoot down AI planes, as has been mentioned in this thread. One solution for bombers and recon planes would be to make them protect each other better while disengaging at the same time. For example the defensive circle that the Fees used is one of the things I'd love to see (and historically it has been used by many other plane types when facing superior opponents, not only during WW1). For fighters, it would depend on the plane types of the retreating pilots and their opponents. For example when a flight of SPAD XIII's decides to disengage from enemy Albs, they can simply turn away (or dive) and use their superior speed to get away safely: no Albatros can keep up with them. But it can't be easy to make this a reality in a flight sim with so many different aircraft and periods of air combat with various doctrines and stuff. One can still day dream though.

 

I agree with all of that and who knows what the Devs will be capable of doing for P4. They are a crafty, resourceful and dedicated bunch, aren't they?

 

I at this point I guess I'm more talking about a sort of Community Created "P3.5" patch to bring still more added realism to the flight sim, not unlike Creaghorns awesome Sound Tweak II and Tracer effect mods or Herr Prop-Wasches excellent Damage Model 2.2 efforts. Simply because AI is so nortoriously difficult to program, I wonder if upping the amount of damage the planes can take in P3 will have the net result of reducing player kills without having to peek under the hood of the AI which is really the realm of the Devs. Sure, planes will still turn and head for home when damaged, but it will require more bullets to get them to that point and more still to bring them down. Unless you are flying with unlimited ammo, and I have to presume the folks who wish they could bring the amount of player kills down to more historically accurate levels are not, then the logical result would have to be fewer kills. It's also quite possible that it would have another added benefit too, though I certainly couldn't say for sure. It might then take 2 or more good hits before players start to lose control surface functionality in their own planes, making it possible to actively stay in the fight a bit longer even though your plane has been hit. It would add a little extra thrills to the fights that you had some close call hits to your plane but they didn't effect anything major. Not at all sure that is how it would work though, but here's hoping.

 

Also, and I still can't get an answer on this from anyone. If the AI doesn't have unlimited ammo, upping the amount of damage the planes take might result in fewer fights where one side or the other is completely wiped out. I imagine there were many times in the real war that planes broke off and headed for home not because they were damaged, but because their guns were empty. Perhaps if the AI has limited ammo the engagement might end with planes still flying on both sides more often. That would be rather cool, I think.

 

HPW said he'll look into it when he gets the chance. (Thank you sir!) I don't think he would really need to do all of the planes to start with. Just do some Albatros DIIs and the Sopwith Triplane to start with in QC mode only. Then we could run some test dogfights and just see how it plays out.

 

Hellshade

Edited November 25, 2010 by Hellshade

[Hasse Wind 46]

I really like HPW's mods. I'm currently testing his improved N.28 and it works really well. I also use his DM mod and can recommend it to everybody. It's great that OFF can be modded so it's possible to fool around with different ideas and see whether they can be implemented in the sim or not.

[+elephant 36]

About Hellshade's thoughts of a community P 3.5 mod and the the "nortoriously difficult to program", AI, I'll give you an example of what the IL-2 modding community has achieved, as an IL-2 Modder myself.

We were told that the "game engine" restricted the developers to correct the funtamental AI flaws shared by all the sims that start to be developed at the beginning of 21st century.(ie AI super vision, super flying ect).

When the modders took the game code though and start tweaking it with Java, miraculously the former unsolvable problems seemed to be starting solved, one by one.

Now in Modded IL-2, (soon in the official 4.10 patch), the AI can no longer see through clouds, (the AA guns also), they can overheat nor trim perfectly, (according to skill), can sustain visible hydraulic failures according to damage and many other "impossible" things I cannot recall right now that proved that the developers in reality didn't spare any time and resources to address them, (just because they saw no profit behind them).

As I'm not at all an OFF expert, giving this info as food for thought and I just hope for the best for Phase 4...

[carrick58 23]

Does the A I have unlimited Ammo ? They always seem to have enough to shoot me down

[Ratatat 0]

Yes, my wingmen seem to unleash an unending bullet hose on enemy aircraft. What happened to the quick, short bursts that you hear about in training?

 

I remembered something from my RB3D days that I miss in OFF. I wouldn't say it's my #1 feature wish...but I liked seeing the types of enemy aircraft I shot down listed in my log book by date.

Perhaps it is because I don't fill out reports, but I don't see this in my log book in OFF. It just says "Kill confirmed" on this date ( I totally respect the authenticity of reports in OFF, but I'm not really interested in the busy work of it, so I wuss out ). If filling out reports lets you see the aircraft type shot down in your pilots log book then just ignore my rambling. I liked this feature in RB3D because I could see my "kill career" listed in order...on this day I knocked down such and such a plane...on this day a different type, and so on. It allowed me to recall the battles that took place and think to myself "Oh, yes, I remember that fight, it was a doozie. He was an admirable foe!" - and that sort of thing.

 

Cheers!

 

Ratatat

[Hellshade 110]

Scratch the double the hit points of aircraft idea. I was reliably informed that that is how it was in Phase I and the general feedback was that you could get planes smoking, etc but it felt too hard to shoot them down and so OBD has already come full circle with that idea. It was suggested, if anything, try reducing the amount of damage the bullets do. I have no idea how to do that, but it sounds interesting. Anyone know where to go to mod bullet damage?

 

Hellshade

 

 

 

[Hasse Wind 46]

I've never played Phases 1 and 2, so I didn't know that about the aircraft hitpoints in P1. Interesting. I can imagine how frustrating it must be when you empty your guns into an enemy plane without any results whatever. It's a fine line between reasonable challenge and complete frustration.

[von Baur 54]

1.) Detailed printable and briefing room maps that match the roads, rail lines (including stations), rivers (including lakes) and woodlines in the game.

The printable map should look like a simple prewar road map made by, say, January 1914, without necessarily incorporating airfields, non-prewar military encampments or the front lines. These were available to both sides and I've read that it's what the German Army used at the outset of the war. The briefing room map could have those features overlaid since it would be logical to have them drawn onto a squadron map used for that purpose. Later in the war the briefing room map could even include 'recon photographs' of the mission objectives. I realize this is a tall order but it is the sigle most significant shortcoming of OFF, in my opinion.

 

2.) Squadron mates' careers fleshed out as much as the player's.

I've had icredible luck, I suppose, with my fellow aviators, losing extremely few and they usually down several aircraft between them, but I never see it reflected in the Duty Room. Their kill numbers stay the same, mission after mission, while mine increase as confirmations come in. I could understand if a given percentage were denied, but I track the kill tallies of each person in my flight and have yet to see any of them increase at all.

 

3.) (while we're on the subject of kills)Confirmation sources other than squadron mates (i.e. ground witnesses).

If the action took place within sight of two or three observation balloons and I can provide the location of one of them (e.g., observation balloon north of Henin-Lietard) it should be safe to assume that they could confirm my kill. The same would be true for friendly encampments, particularly behind the lines. The men there would likely be on relaxation time and their attention would probably be drawn to a dogfight, therefore it could be expected that they could coroborate EA shot down. The confirmation percentage could increase if a player has a unique skin rather than a default or squadron one. And if identifiable markings are taken into account for confirmation percentage then they should only be available to players who have proven themselves as aces (whatever number that country used to establish ace status).

 

4.) Heavy bombers.

I know, they've been confirmed, but it's one of the things I want and am looking forward to.

[Olham 164]

Just came up between MikeDixon and me: binoculars!

(I know we can already zoom in and out, but adding the shape of binoculars would seem cool).

Edited November 26, 2010 by Olham

[Ratatat 0]

Faster load times.

 

Or what do you all think of this idea:

 

Have a folder within the OFF folder that contains some of the excellent screen captures on display in this forum. A screen shot is randomly picked as your loading screen for you to enjoy viewing while you wait for the campaign to load. Additional screen captures can be added by the user by dropping them in to the folder.

No disrespect to Polovski intended. His artwork is grand. But after seeing it for the 100th time I think it would be very exciting to see something unexpected and different while I sip my coffee.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Ratatat

[Hellshade 110]

Faster load times.

 

Or what do you all think of this idea:

 

Have a folder within the OFF folder that contains some of the excellent screen captures on display in this forum. A screen shot is randomly picked as your loading screen for you to enjoy viewing while you wait for the campaign to load. Additional screen captures can be added by the user by dropping them in to the folder.

No disrespect to Polovski intended. His artwork is grand. But after seeing it for the 100th time I think it would be very exciting to see something unexpected and different while I sip my coffee.

 

Thats a really great idea Ratatat.

 

Hellshade

[von Baur 54]

I see the printable accurate maps as a worthwhile addition, but only on an extra cost optional disc, or perhaps Downloadable for Free.

To include it on the game disc, would consume more memory than most have

I disagree about requiring more memory than most people have, considering 1TB hard drives are now pretty much standard for new computers. However your point about such a thing not fitting on the same disc as the game is well taken. If your concern is having the map available during the mission perhaps it could be broken down into areas as Rabu's map is. Then the only thing that would have to load onto your RAM is the map for your AO.

 

 

This is an above average simulation about air combat, and it's effects on you the Pilot, not the trails and tribulations of your wingmen

This is an above average simulation of aerial warfare in The Great War, and one into which the developers have put a lot of effort to provide the players with as much immersion as possible. But, for me at least, some of that immersion is lost if I'm the only one who progresses in his career. To paraphrase Willi von Klugermann, I like to have someone pushing me. I like the competition of seeing how I'm doing compared to those around me. And if those around me are stagnant then they are not people, they're furniture with faces..."atmosphere" in filmmaking parlance. And one does not compete with furniture...one simply steps around it. The question posed was "What is the #1 feature you would like to see in P4?". This was my #2.

 

Taken to its extreme, the performance and survival of those you lead into combat is a direct reflection on your leadership ability. And if promotions and/or transfers are incorporated (as others have requested) then all of your skills should be taken into consideration when deciding whether to move you to an elite squadron or maybe drop you into one with less activity. If you were the commanding general, would you give a squadron to someone who can't bring back his wingmen on a regular basis, regardless how many personal kills he's racked up at their expense?

 

 

To include more possible witnesses, shows the current system too difficult for some. As of now there are 3 choices in Workshop regaurding kill claims

You've never had a lone wolf mission? Or one in which you became separated from your wingmen for a time? Not all confirmations had to come from fellow flight members. In fact, I'd guess that indepenent ground confirmation was required, at least by later in the war, to prevent any, "I'll confirm two kills for you today and you confirm one for me tomorrow and one the day after that" scenarios.

 

 

I also wish to see the multi-engine aircraft

[Olham 164]

I don't know about faster load times - OFF is IMHO the sim with the fastest time to open it,

and when you think about how much has to be loaded for each mission, it is pretty fast.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Olham

[Hellshade 110]

I don't know about fater load times - OFF is IMHO the sim with the fastest time to open it,

and when you think about how much has to be loaded for each mission, it is pretty fast.

 

I would agree. Most other sims are simply opening up a pre-set mission where are the set peices are put in the appropriate place and there you have it. It makes for a fun ride as long as you stay on the rails. OFF is opening up and entire war with God knows how many squadrons taking off and patrolling, each with their own agenda and a ground war going on below complete with gas attacks and bombardments. If I deviate from the mission I'm given in OFF, I get to see whole other areas of the war. If I deviate from a mission in other sims, I get told to return to the mission area immediately or I'll fail. Kind of an immersion breaker to say the least. So considering what OFF has to load up and take into account, I'm actually suprised it loads as fast as it does. Would faster load times be great? Absolutely. I think the solution there though would be either an SSD drive (very pricey) or a new 10K RPM Raptor drive (not quite as fast but a lot more storage for the price).

 

Hellshade

[Creaghorn 10]

2.) Squadron mates' careers fleshed out as much as the player's.

I've had icredible luck, I suppose, with my fellow aviators, losing extremely few and they usually down several aircraft between them, but I never see it reflected in the Duty Room. Their kill numbers stay the same, mission after mission, while mine increase as confirmations come in. I could understand if a given percentage were denied, but I track the kill tallies of each person in my flight and have yet to see any of them increase at all.

 

 

that's not quite true. in my campaigns the fellow pilots DO increase their kills. there is even a message appearing "one claim of your squadronmates got confirmed" or something like that. they increase their kill tally in a realistical pace. there are definitely more skill levels of your fellows in the same squad. so if you live long enough you will see that some fellows die quickly, some survive long getting many kills, some survive long getting few or none kills. all in a realistical pace. better squadrons have more of those who get many kills.

 

some month ago i posted my so far best campaign pilot Ulrich Wolff. and there i wrote that a AI squadmember named Horst Pagels reached 30+ kills in about 2 virtual years. that was an AI fellow. no story. he really gained this number by himself. many others also raised their killnumbers, but as it was in real, some of them are really good, some not so, some not at all (IMO good emulation of the fact that about 5% of the pilots had about 50% o the kills in real).

you just have to survive long enough to experience the rise and fall of your fellows.

 

but you are right that the mission outcomes don't affect the outcomes in the mess besides your own. both systems work independent. also i have not seen AI fellows getting promoted. but they do get better within the time. that's a fact.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Creaghorn

[von Baur 54]

Thank you for confirming that their careers do progress, Creaghorn. I've rarely made it more than a couple of virtual weeks before taking AA fire on a ground attack mission or colliding with an EA in the middle of scissoring with him, so I've not seen it.

 

...the mission outcomes don't affect the outcomes in the mess besides your own. both systems work independent. also i have not seen AI fellows getting promoted.

 

That's the essence of my request. I do track the victories of the AI that I fly with and although I've seen the same confirmation message for some of them that you have I have yet to see their numbers actually change. And I account for only maybe about 25%-30% of the aircraft shot down by my flights at best.