How come not a lot of modding?

[DukeIronHand 8]

Any sim I have ever owned has always had a dedicated group of people making mods, tweaking things, improving graphics, realism, releasing add-ons, etc.

For me that is a huge part of the fun...tweaking your sim to your idea of realism!

 

How come that is not the case for OFF? And I am not counting the skinners - much good work there.

 

While I love OFF it is not perfect and there is room for improvement in many areas. Unfortunately I have no skill except with a text editor!

 

Is everyone satisfied with OFF as is?

 

For example, the personal skin vs fuel/ammo loadout issue. This is really still an issue at this point? The medal system? The tracking of your wingmen? Squadron mates? Aces? Manic AI? Plus many many others! I understand that all this may be complicated, and well beyond my skill, but in most sims some skilled and dedicated gent takes a crack at it and fixes the problem or releases a mod or tweak. If these are "unfixable" CFS3 issues then it may be time for another engine.

 

If I had to guess a reason I would say that, ultimately (and sadly!), the hardcore user base for OFF is really quite small. We see that here on our home forum that we all love. Granted we have lurkers but we have, what, 30-40 people who post here? Fewer people mean fewer ideas and skills being put forth. And its not the impending(?) release of P4 - as I expect someone to say - there has never been a huge modding base for OFF.

Wish I had a good answer! Or skill!

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Duke, CFS3 is a very old engine and has some significant limitations, which the OFF devs have done a great job of working around. As to tweaks, there have been a few in terms of damage models, but otherwise its all been pretty much image additions such as skins, maps, etc. I honestly think that for most of us here we are just so involved in the campaigns and surviving the air war that we really don't want to invest a lot of time and energies into trying to better a sim we already love. Not to say that there isn't room for improvement: there always is. But I know for me, I would rather spend my time flying in the virtual skies than trying to sort out the code that would allow me to pick custom skins and limited fuel, assuming that can even be done with the CFS3 engine. Would a newer engine be better? No doubt. However, that could involve another two years or more of work on the part of the devs to switch it all over, and I don't believe they have the time nor the inclination to do anything like that at this time. P4 may well prove to be the ultimate that can be done with CFS3, at which point the next OFF generation will go to a new engine, but I imagine that must be a long way away.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

.

[Creaghorn 10]

.

 

Duke, CFS3 is a very old engine and has some significant limitations, which the OFF devs have done a great job of working around. As to tweaks, there have been a few in terms of damage models, but otherwise its all been pretty much image additions such as skins, maps, etc. I honestly think that for most of us here we are just so involved in the campaigns and surviving the air war that we really don't want to invest a lot of time and energies into trying to better a sim we already love. Not to say that there isn't room for improvement: there always is. But I know for me, I would rather spend my time flying in the virtual skies than trying to sort out the code that would allow me to pick custom skins and limited fuel, assuming that can even be done with the CFS3 engine. Would a newer engine be better? No doubt. However, that could involve another two years or more of work on the part of the devs to switch it all over, and I don't believe they have the time nor the inclination to do anything like that at this time. P4 may well prove to be the ultimate that can be done with CFS3, at which point the next OFF generation will go to a new engine, but I imagine that must be a long way away.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

.

 

forgot the sound tweak my friend

[DukeIronHand 8]

"I would rather spend my time flying in the virtual skies than trying to..."

 

I guess that's my point. Most of us would agree with you but with a much larger fan base there are always people who are "born tweakers" or "fixers" who love to goof with programming things. Our smaller user base minimizes our chances of having such "fixers"

 

And yes Creaghorn...your Sound Tweak is excellent and an example of a "mod" that I wish we had dozens to choose from.

[Wodin 0]

With OFF Phase 4 in the making I suppose there is no point. I also expect whatever could be done to CFS 3 has been or will be by the OFF team.

 

Finally for all it's short comings the gaming experience is so damn good that I honestly don't feel the need to set out to mod it. I'm grateful for the sound tweak and Herpropwash DM. Still it's not a game I feel I need mods for as like I said I enjoy it well enough as is. The wingman issue I imagine to be complicated. Think how many times all your flight or most of it has gone down. The whole squadron would be all new members in three days or so...the AI is OK I haven't seen AI any better in any other Sim. Someone is modding the award system at the moment. The loadout issue was supposed to have been fixed in a patch...not sure if this is going to happen however I don't feel the need to mess around with fuel etc...in RoF it makes a massive difference not sure it will here. I'd like it to be am option that if you get a confirmed ace kill the ace is out of the game myself but it's no biggy really (it is my main gripe though ;)). Not sure what you mean by Squadron Mates....

 

I take OFF for what it is...A WW1 experience by none and an immersion factor\atmosphere that I haven't seen in a game for along time. It's one of the only games I've never felt the need for a mod as it fullfills everything I want. The OFF team have done a massive mod which I suppose is like loads of people making small mods for another game. So really it's a fully modded game. I expect Phase four will have new additions rather than tweaked gameplay which is what most mods do.

 

I also think it has a decent following otherwise a Phase 4 wouldn't be in production. I don't think you can base it on how active posters are on here. I had phase 2 and bought phase 3 then HitR on release and never felt the need to go on a forum. Just so happened I decided to click on forum when looking at the new phase 4 screenies on the OFF website as I wanted to see if there was any other info on here.

[Wodin 0]

Just thought of another tweak I'd like...vary the waypoints....it seems to repeat the same waypoints for missions which becomes noticeable after awhile. You start to see reoccuring patterns in the end.

[Slartibartfast 153]

Looking at the work that has been done in P3 it truly is amazing and if I did any modding it would only be after I had survived a campaign to see if there was anything better to do... So far I have managed a month and most times a lot less... Also as has been said the few mods there are are usually extremely well put together and made... But isn't skinning also a mod and mostly the people here do that... Also why mod as I see it something that is nearly perfect seems a waste of time... Okay there are some things that are out like the medals but I can live with that as the developers know about it... And as P4 is due out it would be a waste of effort...

[77Scout 3]

For example, the personal skin vs fuel/ammo loadout issue. The medal system? The tracking of your wingmen? Squadron mates? Aces? Manic AI? Plus many many others! I understand that all this may be complicated, and well beyond my skill, but in most sims some skilled and dedicated gent takes a crack at it and fixes the problem or releases a mod or tweak. If these are "unfixable" CFS3 issues then it may be time for another engine.

 

You're right ... very complicated. Also inaccessible. Most of this stuff is buried in the code of CFS3 and/or Winder's OFF Manager, which the average person does not have access as far as I know.

[DukeIronHand 8]

While I am not disagreeing with anything said here I find the "P4 is pending" logic to be specious at best -especially based on past, and predicted, trends.

 

I am not "mf"-ing the devs or anyone else. They have indeed worked wonders with CFS3. And OFF is the greatest perhaps because I am such a fan of WW1 aviation. I really do like it.

 

I guess my main point is that:

1) There are plenty of things that could be fixed/tweaked/modded/improved upon in OFF.

 

2) Our dedicated user base is too small to bring in fan-based tweakers, fixers, new ideas, visionaries, madmen etc to work on these issues.

 

A prime example is new aircraft. One of the main requests in the P4 wish list thread was more two-seaters.

What flight sim does not have fans making a boatload of add-on aircraft?

 

Again, OFF is the greatest but I think we need, somehow, to bring more bodies into the fold...new blood so to speak...and numbers.

If P4 is indeed "pending" perhaps it is time to make OFF a free download while still charging for HitR.

In biology, for a population to be viable, it must have sufficient numbers to remain dynamic.

We need a bigger fan base to be viable and to draw in the people that keep making old sims new, exciting, and better.

 

Just my two cents!

 

Edited for grammar..oops.

Edited January 28, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[Lewie 7]

Having watched the development happen in another dedicated, openly editable combat sim, I'd say that the OFF team is trying to do the right thing.

 

User editable sims usually have to have the contributions beta tested thoroughly for compatibility and 'user friendliness', and a wide consensus reached with the dedicated user base about it's inclusion. Patches and updates are always apt to have rushed tweaks and cludges to make something work that wasn't available prior.

 

Again, OFF is the greatest but I think we need, somehow, to bring more bodies into the fold...new blood so to speak...and numbers.

 

Well I would consider myself as 'old blood' but in that matter I'm still game for the hunt so to speak.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Lewie

[Olham 164]

DukeIronHand: Is everyone satisfied with OFF as is?

 

A rethorical question, as we all know, that after BHaH and the HitR addon, the guys started working

on OFF P4. I was very pleased with P3 in relation to P2, but after some time you do find bits and parts,

which you would like to be different. First of all the devels themselves.

And since I know I can rely on that, I feel no need to worry. There are many people here doing fine

contributions. Herr Prop-Wasche made a different DM and FM; Creaghorn made sound and tracer files;

several people make skins; Bletchley and British_eh started the "Survival in the Air" series.

Maybe we don't see any fruitfull attempts with modeling yet - it must be the hardest part of all.

Perhaps you want to start that?

[DukeIronHand 8]

"Herr Prop-Wasche[/b] made a different DM and FM; Creaghorn made sound and tracer files..."

And I use them, great work, and yes we have fine skinners - yourself among them Olham.

 

I guess my fantasy is a large, dedicated, and skilled fanbase (fans - not the hardworking devs) doing things like Pat Wilson (modding for RoF now), Capt. Darwin, Otto von Stachel, our own devs did for RB3D, like the Grey Wolves team did for SH3, like was what done for SH4 by the fans, like the fans here at CA modding new aircraft, effects, etc for First Eagles, the truckload of user made files for Oblivion and Fallout, the gents who have extended the already fruitful life of IL2 with the UOP's and Ultrapack.

 

These things happen when you have a large enough fanbase. That is all I am saying. Don't burn me as a heretic!

If I get a OFF tattoo will I be forgiven?

[Wodin 0]

Your no heretic...didn't you know we are happy to take comments on here...I agree OFF doesn't have that sort of base going on I suppose because it's already seen as a mod and not a standalone title.... If it had been a brand new spanking game without the need for CFS 3 I expect the base would be bigger...CFS 3 puts many off from even trying it out...shame

[DukeIronHand 8]

If it had been a brand new spanking game without the need for CFS 3 I expect the base would be bigger...CFS 3 puts many off from even trying it out...shame

 

I suspect there is much truth in your statement!

[von Baur 54]

I'll add my two cents in one point: as uncleal said, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

I doubt anyone would say that OFF is perfect but it's darned good. Besides, define 'perfect'. One of the things I disliked about Red Baron was the mods. I'm not talking about the improved plane models or the graphix and sound contributions (flew many of them myself and still have my FCJ disc), I mean all the different flight and damage models. It wasn't so much the fm/dms themselves as the bickering over which one was 'better' or 'more realistic'. And each one of them claimed to be historically accurate based on research and contemporary accounts. It got tiring, for me, just to read it on Wings of Honor and then Wings of Valor. Personally I prefer everyone being on the same page.

[Bletchley 8]

OFF is itself a mod of CFS3 (a 'supermod'), and the original group of modders are the OFF development team - as new modders appear, and show that they have something of lasting value to contribute, they tend to get absorbed into the development team or become associated with it in some way. The situation is similar to that of the BoB (Wov) WWII sim where the development team working to update and improve BoB (WoV) are mostly from the earlier BDG (Battle of Britain Development Group) modders. You will see a similar scarcity of 'independent' mods there. The value of this is that the mods are fully tried and tested before being absorbed into the sim (the 'supermod'), so that conflicts that might lead to instability or unintended consequences in some other part of the game code or experience are elliminated. Although a game like RB3D has a huge number of mods, any pick and mix modded versions of it tend to become hopelessly unstable, subject to crashes and freezing - only a few RB3D 'supermods' are stable enough to play consistently, and even some of these have odd stability issues. OFF, and BoB (WoV), are both rock-solid for me on my PC, and that is a huge advantage - there is nothing worse than spending days, or weeks, playing a long campaign only to then have the PC crash and find the campaign file corrupted beyond repair because one modded file has caused a conflict with another. Independent mods are a necessary feature of those sims where the developers are either very propriatorial and have a very firm view of how they want the sim to develop and so insist on doing any 'modding' of it themselves, or where the original developers have abandoned the sim and are no longer around or interested in any further development or patching (many commercial game producers fall into this category). I guess OFF falls between these two positions - not entirely open to independent modding, but then not completely closed either, so there are independent mods that 'tweak' it, but none that make fundamental changes to it.

 

Bletchley

[Olham 164]

von Baur: ...all the different flight and damage models. It wasn't so much the fm/dms themselves as the bickering over

which one was 'better' or 'more realistic'. And each one of them claimed to be historically accurate based on research

and contemporary accounts. It got tiring, for me, just to read it on Wings of Honor and then Wings of Valor.

Personally I prefer everyone being on the same page.

 

That is a good point, von Baur, and I do much feel the same about it all.

 

DukeIronHand: These things happen when you have a large enough fanbase.

That is all I am saying. Don't burn me as a heretic!

 

Nobody will get burned here for speaking his mind, Duke - we prefer to force them to land on our own airfields here.

 

I think, the OFF community is settled mostly beyond an age of 40.

Most of us have families to care for and fulltime jobs to do.

From the remaining time, we want to visit the forum as much as possible - and after all, we want to fly OFF.

 

And a personal feeling I may be alone with (I'm pretty conservative in many ways, you know?):

A little bit of fan modding here and there may be a teaser to keep the devs on their toes.

But if the users begin to mod and change everything - where is the fun for the developers?

They won't make the big money with it, like the big companies with big money behind them -

these devs started all this work driven by their enthusiastic desire to created the "real thing" -

as they feel and researched it should be.

 

They are still on their way - they never said: Now it's perfect; we have it finished.

I don't want to take too much of that "creating joy" away from them - it would feel for me, as if

the fans were taking the sim out of their hands. I can see the "danger", that fans begin to change

wide areas, only because they would like to be part of the OFF creation.

Which is a very understandable thought and wish to me; but in my opinion, the best and only way

to achieve that would be, to ask the devs and say:

"Here I am; I can build this or that - would you have me in the team?"

 

That was just my very personal view and feeling. If you want to make any contribution, everything

is pretty much open for you to offer it.

 

And "no": not necessary to get an OFF tattoo. (But if you should get one, we want to see pictures!)

Edited January 29, 2011 by Olham

[von Baur 54]

Another point occured to me after reading Olham's post. OBD has never said, "That's it boys, we're done." In fact they were probably working on HiTR...and maybe even P4...when BHaH was released. Not through desire to soak us for more money (which is the feeling I get about the IL-2 gang), but because there's always something new out or coming out...faster cpu's, bigger/better/badder video cards, memory growing faster than you can keep track, newer coding programs. At some point they have to say, "We'll release this for now and incorporate the increased capabilities in the next release", otherwise OFF would always be a work in progress. Two prime examples of that are Birds of Prey and Richtofen's Skies. So what's the point of an independant making a significant mod when the devs have shown that they're still working and sharing what they've got?

 

Red Baron, OTOH, was officially finished. Sierra was not pursuing it. Any improvements would have to come from the users who had the skills. And thank God many of them did. CdT's (along with others who followed his lead) updated 3D models (I didn't like von Helton's early RotJ work and never tried the later stuff), Kessler's terrain graphix and ground objects along with a half-dozen or more FM's and DM's and Ren's FM switcher to manage them all, even a wacky-pack from some dude who called himself Stachel ....heck, my Sierra folder was 14GB or more by the time I was through. But how much of that[/i would have been done if Sierra hadn't pulled the plug? In short, OFF doesn't have the same need for indie work.

[shredward 12]

To be frank, and my colleagues aren't going to like me being so frank,

but the area we really could use help with is model building.

Trouble is, making one is unbelievably difficult, torturous and long. More than a few members of this community have tried, tried long and hard, and then hit a brick wall. It's bloody hard, frustrating, tedious work, and it takes forever, even for such accomplished builders as Winder and Pol. We would love to have all the a/c we had in the RB patches, but it's going to take years. If I had a buck for every model that's been attempted since we started, well, I might not have my South Seas motu, but you get the idea. That is partly why progress sometimes seems so slow.

Plus, we still have the rest of the sim to build.

shredward

[Lewie 7]

To be frank, and my colleagues aren't going to like me being so frank,

but the area we really could use help with is model building.

Trouble is, making one is unbelievably difficult, torturous and long. More than a few members of this community have tried, tried long and hard, and then hit a brick wall. It's bloody hard, frustrating, tedious work, and it takes forever, even for such accomplished builders as Winder and Pol. We would love to have all the a/c we had in the RB patches, but it's going to take years. If I had a buck for every model that's been attempted since we started, well, I might not have my South Seas motu, but you get the idea. That is partly why progress sometimes seems so slow.

Plus, we still have the rest of the sim to build.

shredward

 

A few months ago I approached you on the Aerodrome Forum about using my models in OFF, but the response I seemed to remember was lukewarm. If you want to see what I've built, you can go to OpenPlaneSim.com, ArgonV's website for all things SDOE, and take a look at the RE8 of mine we recently have up for beta testing.

 

I have a number of two seaters and early war kites, unfortunately I have a fondness for French lattice tails, and prewar pioneers, which probably wouldn't be as needed in OFF. I do have a SpadXI It will have to be completely remapped and the interior built. These are in AC3D format.

 

Still interested?

[Guest British_eh]

Hi there,

 

So, I've been here for a few years now and there have been a few tweaks that have worked well, and of course patches for the various games that OFF has created and so we wait for P4. Personally it the patches are oOK, but it is the program that provides for the entertainment. The patches merely add this or that, and may just be eye candy or less. Having spent about 100 hours on the OFF Survival In the Air Series you can look there for Workshop Settings, not so much tweaks, that may enhance your interpretation of realism. No, they aren't tweaks, but perhaps I look at those as more for an arcade game, like my son frequent plays rather than a sim that looks to emulate the Air War of WWI.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

[+Polovski 460]

A few months ago I approached you on the Aerodrome Forum about using my models in OFF, but the response I seemed to remember was lukewarm. If you want to see what I've built, you can go to OpenPlaneSim.com, ArgonV's website for all things SDOE, and take a look at the RE8 of mine we recently have up for beta testing.

 

I have a number of two seaters and early war kites, unfortunately I have a fondness for French lattice tails, and prewar pioneers, which probably wouldn't be as needed in OFF. I do have a SpadXI It will have to be completely remapped and the interior built. These are in AC3D format.

 

Still interested?

 

Hi Lewie,

 

We are very pleased for people to offer genuine help but the main problem is not making an exterior of a craft, often that's a relatively quick part. It is making a fully complete useful model for OFF. Often it's only the basic external view of the model which every new modeller makes and usually learning Max/Gmax AND CFS3 requirements is just too much for most people.

 

Other issues include making a good Virtual Cockpit with enough detail for example and also the conversion to CFS3 specific requirements, animations, dials, etc (and OFF's, for example texturing to our requirements). Converting often would take us nearly as much time as making a new one!

 

I am not exaggerating when I say I have personally spoken to around 25+ modellers who wanted to help - I sent all the info, they started a model got part way through the exernal view then decided to stop, or donate, or move on etc. We have time constraints too, many people worked on 1 model for a year (some for 2 or more years with no finish!) in their spare time, then decided to move on with it half done.

 

It's the time required and commitment and steep learning curve that often floors most contributors but if you are making models and still going, then you have some ;).

If you think you can learn to make a CFS3 version, maybe start with converting one you have (useful 2 seater as an example) we could discuss of course ?

[Bullethead 12]

A prime example is new aircraft. One of the main requests in the P4 wish list thread was more two-seaters. What flight sim does not have fans making a boatload of add-on aircraft?

 

Have you tried adding a new plane to OFF? There are only a few folks who have. Stumpjumper has done it multiple times. There have been many who have tried, myself included. Buit once you get into it, you discover that it's a whole lot more work than you expected going in, and way more than your real life and other hobbies have time for. Actually sculpting the model is the least of it. It's getting the FM right that will kill you. Unless you get your money or your jollies from doing this, as opposed to say actually playing the game for months on end or having any sort of life outside your day job, then you won't finish your project.

 

So, that leaves other areas. We have sound mods. We have mods for the DM and various effects. And we have skins. Skins are most prevalent because they're the easiest to do. Beyond that, salute to the sound and DM modders, because they're doing things I can't even understand, let alone replicate.

 

Bottom line is, doing serious modding is so time-consuming that most folks either don't have time for it, lose interest after a while, or are scared off before they begin. Honestly, I'm surprised we have anything at all besides a few skins, given the small size of the customer base. So be thankful for what you have :)