SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[+EricJ 3,987]

Seems strange I can't force a flat spin either... with any jet, but good to know with the F-14. Though my favorite way of recovering out of a flat spin is to throttle to idle and then push on the stick (forward), once you stop moving wiggle the wings a bit, and then apply thrust. It's worked in any game (FSX and Flanker 2.5/LOMAC)

[saisran 84]

No need to add the flat spin. I was just a wee bit curious. I like the stable tomcat since i really suck at doing manouver i may not be able to recover it most of the time. thanks for the info. Waiting to read your DACT reports. I just realized how difficult it is to fly in SF when everything set to hard. I lost to a Fishbed. then comes back carrying 4 Phoenix and let them loose. Revenge was so sweet!

[+EricJ 3,987]

Wow... I wish my Mission Editor wasn't so borked that I can't do DACT, in a Super Hornet it's easy meat, but to each their own...

[Caesar 305]

The MiG-21 shouldn't be giving you too many problems in an F-14, regardless of model. What is your loadout like when you jump into the phone booth with them? About how heavy are you?

[saisran 84]

I was fully loaded 4 phoenix, 2 aim7 and 2 aim9 just dropped the tank on engagement. i was behind the 21 all the time but u couldn't get a clear gun. got frustrated and impatient. I overshoot and lost sight pulled up to take the loop all this time i forgot to release the airbrakes and lost all airspeed. so i was basically falling while i was looking for it. the fishbed was positioned nicely for guns. I just suck at using guns. i can't even get a good gun solution using the F-8 although i can stay glued to any bandits six even an F-15 with an F-8

[saisran 84]

Oh yeah, i accidentally got the F-14_IR to loose control. I was against an F-15A and i was inside its turn but the nose is a bit high. the panel on the left says im at 198knts. i pulled in harder and increased power then suddenly my plane started leveling on its own. i pulled left rudder to roll and bring the nose down when it lost control and went to a flat spin. The f-15 fired his winders but most misses. i managed to regain control just before i crashed, i hugged the ground to prevent him from hitting me with the sparrows he fired all of them and i managed to escape. at this at this point i had enough as i grew impatient once again. after getting some distance i climbed up and after some manouvering i got behind it abuot 3 miles back i let a a sparrow loose then a winder for good measure. the winder hits. and revenge!

[Caesar 305]

Yeah, jumping into the phone booth with 4 AIM-54 under the jet is not going to work in your favor, let alone jumping in with all your missiles; that's a lot of extra weight that should have been fired long before the merge. Depending on how you start the mission (if you're at 100% fuel with tanks and missiles starting right next to your opponent), you could be toting upwards of 66,000 pounds when so configured. The F-14's combat weight (60% fuel, 2 AIM-7, 2 AIM-9) is around 52,000-54,000 pounds depending on model. Assuming you did burn down to 60% fuel, you're still around 58,000 pounds, and every pound counts. Phoenix is big and draggy, you don't want it on your jet if you get in a dogfight. I did a trial run last night to see how well I could fight the Fishbed in an F-14D with 6 Phoenix, 2 Sidewinder, external tanks and max internal fuel - it was difficult as hell! With so much weight (69,000 pounds in the F-14D at fight start!) the plane was handling like a pig.

 

My recommendation: shoot your AIM-54's at the MiG-21's very far away so that they aren't on your plane when you get into the phone booth. Indeed, shoot as many of your longer range missiles as possible at long range! In a dogfight, they are just extra weight with minimal use (catching someone trying to run, perhaps). Or, if you're more focused on turning and burning, don't equip Phoenix, take a loadout of 4 Sparrow/4 Sidewinder or 2 Sparrow/2 Sidewinder, or something to that effect. You should notice a significant performance difference.

[saisran 84]

Uhm, I still have the drop tank just before the merged so i was probably still carrying 90% of fuel. I't was just too easy getting it with a Phoenix and i want to practice dog fighting. i Keep loosing to my cousin whenever he drops by. My only chance is when we go all out capability and he's not flying the F-14 with mission starts on ground.

[+EricJ 3,987]

Take it slow is my recommendation. My first DACTs back then as you may have read, started off with me with missiles and them with guns. Then I got a bit more comfortable and now ran it with missiles and still do. But I think you need to fly a jet and get used to it before you fight it. Of course when you get more experience you can pick up a jet, and figure out it's maneuverability and go from there. But start off with a Phantom, as it's to me anyway a good "warm up" jet as while it can burn, it can't turn very well as an opponent, giving you time to work on getting in the kill slot, either for guns or missiles. And just a note, the Atolls on the Fishbeds (and if my mind serves me right) carry Atolls, which are equivalent to AIM-9Bs, even the newer ones so you have to worry about it getting a rear aspect shot on you. Everything is cake even with 9Ls or 9Ms. The 9X or newer AAMs make it too damn easy.

[Caesar 305]

Some of my favorite scenarios to fly are in the early 1970's time frame for the exact reason EricJ lists: missiles are either rear-quarter (AIM-9G/H) or highly unreliable (AIM-7E/-2/-4). The end result is that you have to work for the kill, and neither side is going to have a "face shooter." It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to try your hand at the F-4 first, but if you want to fly your Tomcat against the MiG-21, a great time period to do so would be between 1974 and 1977. Starting in 1978, you get the AIM-9L, which changes the fight a lot, and you don't have to work so hard for the kill. You can learn a lot more when you've got to maneuver to bag your opponent!

[saisran 84]

When you guy's said the Phantom can't turn you really mean it. tried a duel with the F-4B and Mig21. I was doing ok at the beginning but then the mig decided to lit its afterburner and turn harder so i did the same . i added just a little rudder to correct my angle and the phantom rolled the other way and fell. this happened 2 times luckily im able to recover before i hit the ground the 1st one barely as i saw the AGL dropped around 60ft. Good thing that Aim-7e still works when you fire them at good interval.

[+EricJ 3,987]

Yep, the Phantom is good for rocketing and stuff like that, but then again, it's heavy and well.... not fun for a maneuvering fight, but as a target it's easy.

[+SupGen 78]

saisran, have you checked out any of the stuff here: http://www.simhq.com...cc_library.html ? Especially these: http://www.simhq.com...r/air_020a.html , http://www.simhq.com...r/air_021a.html , http://www.simhq.com...r/air_022a.html , http://www.simhq.com...r/air_023a.html . Great stuff, and believe me will give you a whole new "perspective " on air combat. In the F-4, especially the un-slatted wing versions, when that Fishbed starts turning hard and drifting out of your field of view, don't try to turn with him! Instead, roll away from him, wings level, and pull up into the vertical. (You can pretty much firewall the throttle at this point). Get outside the cockpit in the player-to-target view (shift+F8). This is NOT cheating, no matter how you work that hat switch, TrackIR or no, nothing on a 2D monitor is equivilent to a pilot simply turning his head; when you get an idea of the relationship between your aircraft and that evil b*****rd roll until your vertical fin (your lift vector) is pointed at him. Now comes the good part; pull on the stick and go over the top; you should be inverted; back off on the throttle, depending on your relative speed and jump back in the cockpit when you're pointing at him. Roll wings level and line him up. This is known as a high yo-yo and turns the F-4 from a mediocre dogfighter into a MiG killer. Read those articles, they turned me from a hapless arrow follower into, well, not a hapless arrow follower. Now I actually get to kill sumpthin'.

 

Edit: Yeah, almost forget, that rudder thing is a characteristic of the F-4, especially the un-slatted ones: at high angles of attack the F-4 won't roll very well, you actually use the rudder to roll it.

Edited September 12, 2012 by SupGen

[saisran 84]

Thanks for the advice guys, can't wait to graduate from missile launcher to gun fighter.

[+daddyairplanes 9,174]

as was stressed early in TOPGUN, use the vertical in teh Phantom. the USAF primarily used it as BVR interceptor or iron hauler (esp as an iron hauler) but the Navy was still using the Double Ugly for fleet defense into the 80's. and typically did it w/o the centerline gun pod. get way above or below your target, and use those J-79s or gravity as needed.

[saisran 84]

Good day you handsome devils! An amazing thing happened to me today. I just got 2 gun kills in a single mission!!! (some applause please ). the funny thing is it was totally unexpected. after watching some docu on the F-14 on iran decided to go on a high speed hunt. so i set up 4 Mig-31 and 2 YF-12 and chased them with the Iranian cat carrying 4 -54A, 2 -7F,and 2 -9L. II spotted the the migs about 80nm on radar locked on 1 and 2 about 60 nm and fired on 1. after some time the phoenix hit. about 30-40nm now i decided to fire 2 54 on number since its already of the phoenix and its running. (at this time 3 and 4 are gone) both 54s hit(4 for 4 Phoenix). call command and was informed on the primary target loc. went after the YF-12s and got the 1st one with the remaining phoenix. i went after the 2nd and was surprised. instead of flying high and really fast it was fying just about 8000ft and at 480. i was at 20000 and going 600++ I got carried away watching the Wing glove extend out that i got too close. went idle and dove in on the blackbird. was too fast and got too close for the sparrow so i let the winders loose. flares and miss. however the funny thing is.It started to fly really slow and really straight. after some time practising going vertical and overshooting. I finnally managed to roll the cat on its back and follow the YF on its course. still around 200 at 8000ft i come down from 10 and let a long stream of cannon fire. It went to pieces. elated i went after the remaining migs now 60nm away i chased with the after them with full berner. making my cat really light. When i caught up the mig split while one act as decoy the other one continue to run. the mig was about 20 something and i was bout 15, i got about 200 excess speed and i zoomed up on it gun blazing. A few hit the target but did little damage. climbed really high and did what ceasar does and the cat gently but surely curled its nose back onto mig. on a dive at full burner. i was about 2nm when i levelled and i was close to 1 nm when it suddenly slowed down and banked left. too much speed i climed up again and did the same as before and now im above it at .09nm fearing another overshoot i put engines to idle and extended the brakes. but im still going too fast and i saw got bigger. it banked left and pulled up and im surely going to miss my window. i gave a bit of rudder and let the guns loose. It cut across the entire length of the mig and it went boom. I tried for a 3rd kill I got into a position where a possible gunkill can occur. i let loose and after a second my vulcan chocked. backed off a bit while maintaining position and let the last winder loose.

 

Thanks for all the help gents. Rules!

[+EricJ 3,987]

Nice work!

[saisran 84]

It's funny how i'm able to get a gun kill faster in an F-15A After It managed not to connect all of the Aim7 and Aim9 that i launched.

 

 

This was really exciting. Decided to fly against the KF-2 in a F-14D. Was carrying 4 Aim-120C 2Aim-7 and 2 Aim9. Couldn't get a radar lock until where under 2nm. Was expecting it to do the high speed circle that ceasar talked about but it did something different. It raced down to the deck and I followed. Both of us averaging between 500 to 650kts. From within 600Ft agl. That was really nerve racking. as the Hammer constantly move close to the ground sometimes getting under 100Ft. with myself watching my alt getting dangerously close to smacking in the ground good thing my cousin was here and he acted as my RIO calling out the Alt. Finally it flew infront of my Sight from 0.5ish nm and i let a long ripple of cannon fire which exploded the hammer.

[Do335 382]

sorry to insert here, flying the F-4 i can deal with fishbeds pretty ok, but mig-17s i can never get on its tail, except when it's running, outta fuel or AI having a dumb moment.

what's left to do is me and wingman "delouse" each other... or high deflection shots and head shots

 

do 17s really fly like that or did TK turn them into UFOs?

Edited September 18, 2012 by Do335

[saisran 84]

I also can't keep up with the fishbed with a 17 or a saber. must be due to lack of power.

[+EricJ 3,987]

sorry to insert here, flying the F-4 i can deal with fishbeds pretty ok, but mig-17s i can never get on its tail, except when it's running, outta fuel or AI having a dumb moment.

what's left to do is me and wingman "delouse" each other... or high deflection shots and head shots

 

do 17s really fly like that or did TK turn them into UFOs?

 

To be honest with you I'm not sure, with the MIssion Editor messed up (I may remove it and do it all manual, which I think is how Caesar is doing it) I haven't sparred with at least a Mig-19 in a long while.

[+EricJ 3,987]

Well I managed to get "something" working with a DACT setup, still WIP but I may get back into shooting things down. Anyway, the MiG-19 flies like a UFO, but then again it's a bit of rust I had to work off too.

[Caesar 305]

I think the MiG-17 is known to be massively overpowered, if not by thrust, then by aerodynamics (too little drag), because the Fresco should not be able to hang with an F-4 in the vertical. I know it has too much turning authority at high speeds (saw it pulling more than 9g at 480KIAS with the debug on - due to its lack of hydraulics, it should have about 3-4g available in that region if memory serves) and it seems to regain energy too quickly. That said, the best way to fight it is still to push vertical advantages in aircraft with better T:W (F-4, F-8, F-14, F-15, etc). Don't try to turn with it, its wing loading is extremely light.

[+EricJ 3,987]

Me: F-14D (06) with 2 x AIM-9M, 2 x AIM-7M, tanks, gun)

Opposition: MiG-19S with guns

 

Takeaways: It's been so long and the mission was so one-sided that I didn't feel like going through the normal narrative. In essence once you get behind the MiG-19 or -17, stay on its tail and keep in his six. Jousting with one is a challenge, while two is well, interesting if you don't pay attention. But since it's been awhile and I think I have a stable file, I'll say that it can turn, it can burn, but if you're looking for a guns kill it'll be difficult but a missile kill is easy, with modern 'winders (see below) or a good steady shot.

[Caesar 305]

Did a set of F-4 fights against the MiG-21PF Fishbed-D, one fight with the unslatted F-4J and one with the slatted F-4E. Final fight was in an F-14A for a point of comparison. Generally, the F-4E was an excellent match for the MiG-21, but problematically, was too much of a match! That fight, which isn't described in as much detail, remained neutral for a very long time. The F-4J, on the other hand, requires a better stick than myself to handle well against the Fishbed. While I still brought it down, I lost control of the bird twice (and recovered), and the fight was almost never in my favor until the very end.

 

F-4J vs. MiG-21PF Fishbed-D

 

Loadouts

F-4J: 4x AIM-7, 4x AIM-9, 100% fuel

MiG-21PF: 2x AA-2, gun, 100% fuel

 

Fighting in the Phantom took a bit of getting used to again - it had been a while since I've been at the controls of the F-4. I know that the Super Mysteries gave me a hell of a lot of trouble when I was flying the F-4EJ Kai with superior avionics and weapons systems, so I don't have a lot of confidence in my abilities with the baseline J model, but I know if I stick to the vertical, I should be able to outfight the Fishbed.

 

At the start of the fight, I enter the "arena" area and spot the MiG on radar, locking it up at about 20NM from the F-4's nose. As the aircraft close, the MiG fails to beam my radar, so I figure right about now, I could get 4 Sparrows in his direction and call a range kill, but the purpose of this fight is to get visual, and assuming VID rules, I would never get the Sparrow shot to begin with.

 

 

The MiG is below me, and I begin to get some angle-off because I don't have a gun, while the Fishbed does. The MiG comes a bit higher, and near the merge, I get VID on the Fishbed. He continues to climb above me, rather than to just try for a snap shot, and then pulls left into my Phantom. For a second, I think about turning into him, but I know there is no way that's going to work. Rather, I bring the F-4 into the vertical, but make the critical mistake of not pulling away from his turn direction for building an angle off, instead, pulling vertically into his turn.

 

 

The MiG decides to come up stairs and a long loop begins, but the MiG runs out of airspeed at the apex of the loop. In this case, it didn't matter, because my Phantom didn't have enough to get back to the top of the loop, or at least, not in time to shoot. This time, the MiG has the positional advantage, and as I'm trying to press on him with too little air speed to work with, he pulls into me, generating a two-circle fight that for a moment I think I am winning. Oh wait, I'm not. Hard rudder to get the Phantom's nose going somewhere the MiG isn't, and the Fishbed is near my tail.

 

Fortunately for me, my wreckless handling of the F-4 has departed the bird and the MiG can't get a shot on me. Counter rudder, neutral stick and the phlailing Phantom gets back in shape. Got control and now I am behind the MiG. What starts next is an energy circle that remains neutral for about 5 circles, with the MiG eventually gaining as I realize I'm going to need some smack if I want to do something. Allow the MiG to build by loosening my turn, extend and run.

 

 

The MiG has rear-aspect heaters, so I know I'm not in a good position if I keep my tail end facing him too long. Now that I've got some speed (.91M!) I cut back across the MiG to deny him the missile shot, and keep the nose a bit low so I can put on a sustained 7g turn. The MiG follows and matches. I put the Phantom into the vertical plane, but the MiG follows me, this time with enough energy to keep threatening. Okay, well, I'm gonna do it again!

 

This time, the MiG runs out of energy as he is climbing with me, while I have about 300 KIAS at the top of the loop. I reef on the stick a bit, burning energy, nearly depart the F-4 again (lots of rudder needed), and as I pass through the MiG's altitude, opt for aggressive pulls again, as he just barely recovers his Jet and starts a right-hand pull into my F-4. I've got the blowers engaged, and now the MiG is trying to force an overshoot.

 

 

As I begin to catch up to him, climbing, I realize this and cut the throttle and pull a bit to follow him. He starts speeding up for a second, then slows back down, and again I have to cut throttle, but this time I have less speed. Figuring he's going to do something like put the stick in his lap and leave no doubt about forcing the overshoot, or cause me to depart due to harsh stick movements on the third attempt, this time, I need to get a shot off. AIM-9 selected, max rudder into the threat, good tone, just about Rmin, FOX 2! As the F-4 skids to the other side due to lack of airspeed and with too little lift, the MiG yanks on the stick for all he's got, but he hasn't got the airspeed to get away - the AIM-9G finds its target and detonates off of the MiG's tail, shredding and setting ablaze the Fishbed. Phantoon 1, Fishbed 0!

 

F-4 post shot, skidding to the right

 

 

 

Fight 2: F-4E

 

Loadouts

F-4E: 4x AIM-7, 4x AIM-9, gun, 100% fuel

MiG-21PF: 2x AA-2, gun, 100% fuel

 

This fight was almost identical, but without any departures and with better energy thanks to the F-4E's slatted wings. I also had a gun, which was very comforting to know. Similar start, only this time I nearly had lead on the MiG after the loop, and I tried to get back on him by pushing the vertical. This didn't end up working and in the end, bled too much speed. Energy circle to the deck again, vertical push here and there, nothing resulting in anything. I need speed again, extend and the MiG can't quite match my escape, get about two miles lead and 30k feet to work with and pull to bring the F-4's nose around. As the MiG tried to follow me, he ran out of energy.

 

 

 

 

At the top of my loop, I'm low on smack, get the flaps out, and can see the MiG is having a hell of a time trying to follow. He gets his nose down (I think he actually departed the plane), but this exposes his exhaust. Nose on the MiG as he's gaining speed and maneuverability. I fire two AIM-9's at him for good measure, but the first impacts and destroys the MiG (second unnecessary). This fight actually took longer than the first, and I had a lot less gas at the end, but the two aircraft were far more comparable. Departures weren't what saved me, and the MiG was never in a good firing position vs. the slatted F-4E.

 

 

 

 

Fight 3 (control): F-14A

 

Loadouts

F-14A: 4x AIM-7, 4x AIM-9, gun, 75% fuel

MiG-21PF: 2x AA-2, gun, 100% fuel

 

As many other fights in the Tomcat, this one wasn't much of a match. Lock at 15NM like the F-4's, but this time at the merge, the MiG opts to get some altitude and passes overhead. I pull into him in an elongated yo-yo. He's able to sustain his turn well enough that I have to come back up and around, but as I come back down on the second time (noticing he's diving for the deck), I've got lead on the Fishbed. Gun selected, flaps unneccessary, good off boresight shot and gun kill on the Fishbed.

 

Lead inside the MiG's turn

 

Shootdown

 

 

 

Takeaways: The slats on the F-4E really do help its performance, and make it more of a match for the Fishbed if you keep it at high speeds. Even at low speeds, the likelihood of departure is less (didn't loose the jet once) and the aircraft easier to control. The gun is always an excellent fall back option if you can't get a missile kill and its a great feeling knowing it is available if your missiles are failing and you end up inside of Rmin.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Caesar