SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[cougar_1979 37]

Still busy at work, so i don't get to fly at all. I do lurk the thread at all times though. I've been doing some sidework on my F-14 flight model for the BMS too, but only small refinements. I have been thinking for another themed DACT, but at the moment i can't decide what would it be.....or when can i actually perform it....

[Caesar 305]

Yeah, RL ™, has been hampering my forward movement with the F-14 for SF2 and DACT missions in general.

[cougar_1979 37]

I got some free time this afteroon, so i decided to try and replicate a dogfight i was discussing with Saisran. It involves an attempt to force and win a vertical engagement against a higher T/W ratio bandit - in this case a block 25 F-16C. My AC of choice would of course be the F-14A. We'd be starting at roughly 20000ft, 5nm neutral merge, gunzo. My strategy is to try and cause the bandit to bleed while i unload and then go up. This would cause the AI to try and follow me (they usually do when they fly high T/W planes). I would then try to use my knot advantage to stay offensive and force the bandit to either dive for the deck or bleed even more and turn into a floating leaf.

The recording of this HOP starts slightly bellow angels 16. I try to gain some airspeed before the merge so i plug in the burners to reach the 430-460KIAS i prefer having at the merge. We cross on eachohter's left and turn for a two circle nose to tail chase. Keeping the AoA just bellow the buffet onset throughout the entire turn allows me to complete it with good 350 knots on my belt. I see the F-16 ahead doing the same, going for a wide merge. Just as i thing i will have to do another neutral pass he starts truning into me. At this altitude and this turn rate that means bleeding off airspeed. So i make the gamble, level off and pull up. Turns out i was right, as he dropped bellow 300 (courtasy of the HUD dificulty level) i zoomed out above him, turned the Cat on her back, brought my nose on him. He pulled high trying to cut into my climb, but this made him lose even more airspeed. I went up after him with more then 150kts advantage and as he dropped his nose to avoid stall i knew i had him. Using the God's G to assist in my dive i closed in and started pulling lead on him. He went into a downward spiral to offset his low energy state, but this only bought him time (the Viper corners in the high 300's). The bandit only gets to execute 1 and 1/2 interations of the spiral before we hit sea level and i get on him before he even reaches the point when he has to pull out of the dive. Four busts and his wing is sawed off. Splash one, nock it off....

Takeaways, I was suprised it went to se easy. I am used to this kind of fights in BMS all the time but the AI there is g-limited (like the human player) so it often initiates the vertical fight by it self. So, as usual i had to trick it into climbing with me. But that is not what surprised me. The thing is, this was the first time i could actually execute a vertical fight in the F-14A in SF2. Usually my controlls are set too tight (not that i didn't try to change the sensitivity, mind you) and i bleed energy too fast in the TF30 powered Turkey. The other thing was that the AI actually handled the vertical not as good as i expected it would (when entering the fight under neutral conditions or with a slight advantage the AI usually flies flawlessly). It only lasted for 2 vertical iterations. The end resault? One F-16C bagged for the wife and children at home, and more then 14000lbs of fule to spare..... I think it's a personal best

[saisran 84]

Life caught up and been too busy to post. Anyways, Nice Flying cougar. It has always been easier to take on the Viper using the vertical. Hope to get back to SF by January.

[+EricJ 3,935]

I think it's hitting me too, just not as motivated during the holidays to do work but yeah... I'll be back into it after a bit.

[cougar_1979 37]

Happy new year everyone!
Having had no smarter way to spend the eve, i satayed at home and tried on the new F-14 from Aerosoft, for FSX. After several carrier traps, it sort of dawned to me, what if the evacuation of Saigon went hot..... so i kicked in SF2 and flew the follwing mission, it's a 1975 CAP of SE Asia and it turned out into a complete BVR engagement (almost)

The flight is 4 Early F-14A's loaded with a configuration of 4 AIM-54s, 2 AIM-7 and 2 AIM-9. The recording starts at bellow angels 20 and lasts for more then 15 minutes so i had to cut down on video quality..... (BTW, does anyone know how to load the early F-14s with a 2-3-2 configuration?)

The GC calls multiple bogies at 9, but these will not be the bandits we are going to be fight for the most part. A flight of NAVY Phantoms is going to angage them. As the first bandit goes down in the distance, the GC calls new contacts at 4, this time bandits, 10nm away, clear to engage. I order element 2 to attack as i fly cover. As they appear to be flying low, i have some trouble picking them up on the scope. At 2:40 they start streaking by us. I go high and roll over on my back to better assess the situation. I was just about to drop my bags, when i recall something i heard from an ex Tomcat driver..... "we always flew with our bags on....would i drop them? Sure, if i was fighting a MiG-29 and losing"

Well this being 1975. i have no idea what a MiG-29 is and surely don't see one around. What i do see is a Fresco nailed down and smoking by my second element. I break high and see another 17 pursuing 3 and 4. I select sidewinders and roll into him. At the same time my radar acquires another target which will turn out to be one of my wingmen. I am lucky though and the seaker finds the MiG. Splash another MiG! This makes 3 nailed by us and it's mission complete, but i decide to stick around and help the other squadron. I order rejoin, and set an intercept course tp the nearest group. A MiG crosses the HUD on my right and i break into him. I have what it think is a good tone and let off another winder. But there is no hit. I fire a Sparrow next but it doesn't even start to track and just goes balisitc off the rail. My break must have cost me too much energy i stall as i withness a Fresco outclimbing me to 30+ angels. This Buffalos must be awfull heave so i order my element to attack and they nail it.

We rejoin and as have enough fuel to play some more, we go for another set of contacts some 20+nm away. I wait a bit for the IFF to sort them out and then fire sway 2 54's at two of the contacts. On of the missiles finds its mark and i order my men to engage as i fire another pair of 54's at a second pair of contacts. This time both missiles find thier targets and i order another rejoin. I find one more hostile and order my wingmen to engage. I prepare to launch a sparrow when the 54 from the wingman hits. We rejoin again an as the Phantoms took care of the rest of them we head for home. Tomcats  9, MiG's 0. Although No loses on the Tomcat side and the wingmen turned out to be surprisingly good, we did lose at least 2 Phantoms :(

Edited January 3, 2015 by cougar_1979

[Caesar 305]

Very nice flying, Cougar!  I just made a mission similar to this one; an Alpha Strike on Yen Bai, had similar results.

 

In order to do a 2-3-2, you'll have to make a custom loadout in the loadout.ini.  Problem is, we broke down the aircraft's weapon stations for maximum fighter/recce/strike flexibility, rather than straight air-to-air, so unlike the TW F-14, you can't do this loadout by default.  We did a 2-1-4 for the F-14B_91, so you could copy that and modify it for Vietnam-era, but this is what a 2-3-2 would look like:

 

[AirToAir'74]

StartDefaultDate=1974

DefaultFor=SWEEP,ESCORT

Loadout[29].WeaponType=F14DDE

Loadout[29].Quantity=1

Loadout[11].WeaponType=AIM-54A

Loadout[11].Quantity=1

Loadout[12].WeaponType=AIM-54A

Loadout[12].Quantity=1

Loadout[03].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4

Loadout[03].Quantity=1

Loadout[13].WeaponType=AIM-9H

Loadout[13].Quantity=1

Loadout[14].WeaponType=AIM-9H

Loadout[14].Quantity=1

Loadout[01].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4

Loadout[01].Quantity=1

Loadout[02].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4

Loadout[02].Quantity=1

Loadout[17].WeaponType=Tank330_F14_W

Loadout[17].Quantity=1

Loadout[18].WeaponType=Tank330_F14_W

Loadout[18].Quantity=1

 

When you're in the loadout screen, your center Sparrow stations will read "Empty" but the little circle will be filled in.  When you go in game, you'll notice a single Sparrow on the aft centerline station (Sparrow Station 4).  This is a little more practical if you're anticipating a close in fight, since, like you noticed, four Phoenix slung beneath the F-14 is a lot of weight!  One of the loadouts I commonly take now is a 2-4-2, but with the four Sparrow under the fuselage, the two Phoenix on stations 1B and 8B and the Sidewinders on 1A and 8A.  Gives me one extra Sparrow, keeps the rails off the pancake area, and I usually fire the AIM-54's at long range anyhow, so when I jump into the fight, I typically have my Sidewinders, a Sparrow or two, and GUNS!

[cougar_1979 37]

Thanks mate! Do i copy-paste this over the current ini lines? Or do i need to make a new entry?

[Caesar 305]

You could do either, though if you want to keep your current '74, either save a copy of your loadout.ini, or enter the new one as a different name, year, etc.  (e.g. AirToAir'75, or AirToAir232, or something like that).  You'll have to define what missions the 2-3-2 is default for if you keep both entries, since AirToAir'74 is default from 1974-1980 for Fighter Sweep and Escort missions.

 

[AirToAir'74]

StartDefaultDate=1974 <= Defines start date of loadout

DefaultFor=SWEEP,ESCORT <= Defines mission types the loadout is used for

[cougar_1979 37]

I'm trying it now, stand by...

This is the way i went about it (in the F-14A (74) folder, the loadout ini i added this:

[AirToAir'75]
StartDefaultDate=1975
DefaultFor=SWEEP,ESCORT,CAP
Loadout[29].WeaponType=F14DDE
Loadout[29].Quantity=1
Loadout[11].WeaponType=AIM-54A
Loadout[11].Quantity=1
Loadout[12].WeaponType=AIM-54A
Loadout[12].Quantity=1
Loadout[03].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4
Loadout[03].Quantity=1
Loadout[13].WeaponType=AIM-9H
Loadout[13].Quantity=1
Loadout[14].WeaponType=AIM-9H
Loadout[14].Quantity=1
Loadout[01].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4
Loadout[01].Quantity=1
Loadout[02].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4
Loadout[02].Quantity=1
Loadout[17].WeaponType=Tank330_F14_W
Loadout[17].Quantity=1
Loadout[18].WeaponType=Tank330_F14_W
Loadout[18].Quantity=1

Trying it now

Edited January 3, 2015 by cougar_1979

[cougar_1979 37]

EDIT: and it worked, another 9:0 for the Wolfpack, over SE Asia

[+EricJ 3,935]

 

When you're in the loadout screen, your center Sparrow stations will read "Empty" but the little circle will be filled in.  When you go in game, you'll notice a single Sparrow on the aft centerline station (Sparrow Station 4).  This is a little more practical if you're anticipating a close in fight, since, like you noticed, four Phoenix slung beneath the F-14 is a lot of weight!  One of the loadouts I commonly take now is a 2-4-2, but with the four Sparrow under the fuselage, the two Phoenix on stations 1B and 8B and the Sidewinders on 1A and 8A.  Gives me one extra Sparrow, keeps the rails off the pancake area, and I usually fire the AIM-54's at long range anyhow, so when I jump into the fight, I typically have my Sidewinders, a Sparrow or two, and GUNS!

 

 

[cougar_1979 37]

This one was not a deliberate DACT report, but the overall mission went south so fast i felt like sharing it with you. It's a 1984 cold war gone hot scenario. I was flying over CE with a full sqaudron, spending most of my time watching out for SAMs, when out of nowhere 8 MiG-23MLAs jumped us. We were still heavy on fuel and AAMs, what followed could easily have went much worse. We just got lucky in the end.

The video starts just before the bogies (bogies my a***, it's bandits) are called at just 4nm away!. I roder my wings to attack, but it's too late. The bogies have already oppened fire. I get a visual on the enemy, it's MiG-23 flying right through our formation, bandits! One MiG seams to have bought it and one Tomcat as well. I perform a split-s to get out of the furball and try to re engage from a better vantage point. The sight i behold as i pull back up reminds me of something out of a movie..... planes circling around eachother at point blank range.....

I set my sights on one of the migs but it bursts out in flames before i even get a good tone. As i do another wide circle, i hear over the radio as my boys got another one. Finally i notice a MiG crossing paths with an F-14, i lock him up, selec Sparrows, and let off a shot. It's a good hit and one more MiG is down for the count. GC calls mission complete, but this is not over yet. We can't disengage with who-knows-how-many 23s looming around. I see one of them falling in behind me just as one of my wingmen yells a warning. I put my lift vector on him and start pulling the stick. One of my men commes between me and the bandit, but before i get a chance to complete my turn he bites it. And i was so preouccupied with my AoA i didn't even see how. I re engage the bandit and order my #2 to double up on him. I am too close for Sparrows so i select Winders, i get a good tone (or so i think), i fire the missile......and nothing hapennes. He reverses his turn and i break enough for him to gain some separation. I select AIM-7 again, fire away.....and again nothing. Having lost my faith in technology i select guns and move in for the kill. Some of my rounds connect and i go into a high displacement roll to avoid an overshoot as he spirals down wonded. Just then my team mates finish him off with a FOX-2. In the meantime, the rest of the team sems to have kicked some serious butts. The sky is clear of bandits. I call on the GC/Hawkeye to call the nearest threats. I lock up one of the targets and i do something i haven't done in ages, a FOX-3 in PD STT mode. Just to be on the safe side. It pays off as the missile goes right to the target. 

I turn thoward the Sun, to face the last of them, but my wingmen are faster. The only thing left for me is to call the flights to rejoin and enjoy the view...... SF2 truly shines in sunsets.....

[+EricJ 3,935]

Actually some of my better engagements were during missions, not "scripted" sets that I do for a more focused evaluation.

[Caesar 305]

Again, nice flying.  Looks like I gotta get my video editing software re-installed; everyone's going the video route nowadays!

[+EricJ 3,935]

I use Shadow Play and it's been fairly reliable in the past.  I tried FRAPS but it kept not working with Movie Maker that Shadow Play is my choice.

[saisran 84]

cool vid cougar! really nicely done. Once i'm able to move about i'll try to get back to flying.

[Robert33 2]

Bump? Just messing around in a Lightning F.6... yes, this is the closest that I have to SF2 PC as of the moment...

 

[Caesar 305]

That first gun kill was incredible!  Funny thing is, I brought up a Lightning in SF2 about three weeks ago for a DACT...I need practice in that bird, it feels so unstable in turns.  Cool to see you handle it so well.

[Robert33 2]

That first gun kill was incredible!  Funny thing is, I brought up a Lightning in SF2 about three weeks ago for a DACT...I need practice in that bird, it feels so unstable in turns.  Cool to see you handle it so well.

 Thanks but please bear in mind that this is the mobile version of SF so things are a bit easier to say the least... and the first gun kill was a lucky one too...

 

From what I've read about the Lightning from available documents and anecdotes online, it was the bonafide dogfighter among it's peers (F-104, MiG21, MirageIII) , capable of holding what were considered tight turns in it's day. It was said to be able to give early Eagles a run for it's money in a 1v1 fight... The only downside to it was it's range of 900M (or was it NM?) and the lack of room for growth and flexibility compared to it's contemporaries...

[cougar_1979 37]

It's good to see the thread still up and running. I finally got some free time last night and i decided to slowly move on from the guns only, to guns and SRAM's. This would require a significant change in tactics, especially with all aspect mssiles. My first hop will be an F-14A with 4 Limas against an Su-27B armed with R-73's. It's a bit anachronistic, as these birds if met, would fight in the mid-late 80's and as such the Soviet missiles would probably be the R-60, but these are training and demonstrational  runs, so bumping up the challenge is a good idea (for me at least).

The general tactics are as followed. Instead of a head on approach, the blue planes closes the range (in full mil power) with the bandit at an angle, somewhere between 30-50 degrees off boresight. This should give us a better view of an incomming missile and more room to maneuver against it. As we close to 7-8nm the engine is set to idle, so we can minimise the heat emitions from the engines. At 4-5nm we preemptively start launching countermesures. At 4nm we start our first break into the bandit and continue launching flaires. We continue the break until we crossed the bandit's bath and passed it to about 30 degrees and then we reverse our break and repeat the process. The reversal should be performed after the bandit launches the second missile (if), but after the first break things usually happen so fast, there is not enough time to wait for a visual confirmation. If exectuted properly (and with some luck), we have avoided being shot in the snout and can now merge with the bandit.

Note1: we can always opt to shoot the bandit in the face too, but that is no the goal of this hop.
Note2: the above procedure is based mostly on real life tactics and i don't know if and how much the sim engines simulates all the parameters needed for it to work.

The planes start at angels 15, some 20nm away on each other's 3 o'clock. We turn slowly into the bandit until we can lock him up on our radar. Then we keep it on the edge of our 30-50 degree cone. While turning we are trying not to expend too much energy as we will need it before the merge. Avoid using afterburner as it will heat up the exhausts and thus increase our IR signatures. At 7nm we set the throttle to idle, but it takes some time for the engine to spull down (note to myself, next time try this at 10nm). At 4-5nm we start kicking flaires and almost at the same time the RIO calls a missile launch. WE exectute our first break, and while still not 20 degrees off starboard, the bandit launces another missile at us. We reverse as quickly as possible and perform another break. The early cut of the break, causses the first missile to explode a bit too close to our tail for my liking, but both missiles are spuffed-evaided and now we can reverse for our merge.

We plug in the throttles again and go to zone 5, executing a left hand turn. Unfortunately the loss of altitude during the maneuver and the increased airspeed has resulted in a fairly high g-load and a danger of a g-lock. Never the less, despite the contued relaxing of the turn to avoid black outs, we find ourselves in a sustained downward spiral. At all times if possible, try to keep the bandit close. His missiles have better HOBS capability, so we don't want to give him an opportunity to point his nose at us with larger separation. After reaching the literal hard deck both planes finally complete full relative 360's and perge nose to nose again for another 2 circle flight path. Another 360 and this time i feel comfotable i have enough energy advantage to try and gain some turning space in the vertical. Leveling the wings, pulling up, rolling into the bandit..... the bandit slides bellow us, we continue to turn into him, but the gorund is too close and i don't want to risk close contact with it, so i level off a bit early.

I decide to continue the vertical apporach, but nearly a month of not flying has made me a bit ham fisted and i jerk the stic a bit  too hard back. This results into too  much energy bleed and even though i manage to bring my nose around first i don't have enough juice to follow up on it and press the advantage. I relax the stick and try to recover some speed in a dive. This helps the bandit to get dangeously deep in my rear hemisphere. I try to tighten my turn and deny him a chance to extend on my 6, this still keeping him close. My RIO calls another missile shot, but as i get no RWR tone, i suspect it must be a HOBS shot. At this range and at these g's no missile can maintain a good intercept.... well maybe a Python 5 or something similar........ but i chose to ignore it and don't lauch any flaires as i am confident it will miss..... and it does.

By now i know what i am doing wrong. Being a right handed guy, i find the right handed turns more dificult to properly control. That and lack of practice has made me make some clumsy moves, but i finally get my stick discipline together and after a few seconds we merge at neutral again. I go up again, this time with a less distinct advantage. I don't go into a pure high Yo-Yo however, instead i perform a wide displacemnet roll that brings me slightly above the bandit, with him crossing my nose. I have him! Or maybe not..... he pulls his nose hard into me and break into each other for a one circle nose to nose chase. I complete the turn first and get both a good tone and a good lock first. I realise i am pprobably too close and the closure is to high for this to work, but i have 4 missiles and wasting one might actually help my turning rate, if not score a lucky hit. The Lima of course misses in a spectacular fireworks of flaires, but having completed the turn first puts me in a possition to finally get him on a defensive. His defensive break has cost him too much energy and now i have him in my sights. I get another good lock, but i notice the aspect is not favorable. His it in the mid of a left turn. If i let him slide by, he will firther exhaust him self and i will let him have a winde up his tailpipe (it's mate in 2). In the meantime, i'll just go for a gun snapshot, unles he jinks and bleed even more it will be mate in 1. I pull the lead, squeeze the trigger..... and i get a lucky gun kill in what was supposed to be a missile tactics demosntration..... Well, at least i got the defensive mart relatively right...

[Robert33 2]

@Ceasar

I just remembered, which Lightning variant did you download and trying to get the hang of?

[Caesar 305]

Using the ThirdWire DLC one.  It actually handles OK in AI hands, unless you get low - it can't pull out of a dive very well, and I did a 1 v 8 in an F-14A.  Four kills right off the bat were because I stayed about 500 feet AGL before the merge, and half crashed.  The other four were not tough, but they handled competently, at least.  At the controls as a player, the thing feels very unstable.  Accelerates like a beast for sure, and I need to try it against more aircraft; MiG-17's aren't a good place to start in TW, being UFO's, just haven't gotten back around to flying the Lightning recently to test against other foes.

[cougar_1979 37]

Using the ThirdWire DLC one.  It actually handles OK in AI hands, unless you get low - it can't pull out of a dive very well, and I did a 1 v 8 in an F-14A.  Four kills right off the bat were because I stayed about 500 feet AGL before the merge, and half crashed.  The other four were not tough, but they handled competently, at least.  At the controls as a player, the thing feels very unstable.  Accelerates like a beast for sure, and I need to try it against more aircraft; MiG-17's aren't a good place to start in TW, being UFO's, just haven't gotten back around to flying the Lightning recently to test against other foes.

Those would most certainly be some interesting DACTs to see/read. Looking forward to them :)

[Robert33 2]

Using the ThirdWire DLC one. It actually handles OK in AI hands, unless you get low - it can't pull out of a dive very well, and I did a 1 v 8 in an F-14A. Four kills right off the bat were because I stayed about 500 feet AGL before the merge, and half crashed. The other four were not tough, but they handled competently, at least. At the controls as a player, the thing feels very unstable. Accelerates like a beast for sure, and I need to try it against more aircraft; MiG-17's aren't a good place to start in TW, being UFO's, just haven't gotten back around to flying the Lightning recently to test against other foes.

Hmm... I don't know if this would help but... Talking from my experience with the F-104 in the sense that teh speeds mentioned here also worked in the mobile version... It might also work for the Lightning... If you're using the F6 or F2A variant, for turns, keep it at around 300-350KIAS... Then use afterburner on brief bursts to maintain speed just like what I did in my video... Oh and be wary that it doesn't have RWR which is probably one of the reasons why it was so easy for the F-14 to bring down in the scenario that you mentioned... Oh, and it's radar works looking up against the horizon, not looking down if I'm not mistaken...

 

The F1, F2 and F3 variants are a bit harder to handle since they don't have the improved wings of the F2A and F6..

Edited February 13, 2015 by Robert33