SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[+EricJ 3,931]

Yeah true, didn't think of that angle... thanks!

[Caesar 305]

Well, it finally happened: the AI flying an F-14B got the better of me in an A-4F Super Fox.  The fight took a while, about 8 minutes from the merge, but I only ever got one snap shot on the F-14.  The AI managed to get shots on me on four occasions, including several bursts on the third before finally getting a kill on the fourth.  I think this is the first time I've lost to an AI piloted F-14 in a gunfight flying the A-4F.  The big factor I feel is the limiter on the AI jet.  I noticed like before that the AI was keeping in the 300-380KIAS range instead of 200-280, which allowed it to keep up sustained turns at higher "g" and tighter radius than I could do in the A-4F, vice burning all of its energy and becoming a sitting duck, and that's also what happened in this fight.  Fight got slow a few times and I actually departed the Scooter 3 times, but quickly recovered with rudder.  Seems like the limiter is a good fix for the AI F-14's survivability.  Still need to test other aircraft.

[Centurion-1 1,228]

You guys should make a thread about it in the mods and skinning discussion topic, along with test results. If it really gives this good results it should be added to most AI aircraft I think. Wonder what it would do to my WIP MiG-25.. maybe set it low at just 4-5gs and see what happens. 

[Caesar 305]

Yeah, we do need to test it out, because not all aircraft in AI hands really need the limiters (unless you wanted to do something for, say, a MiG-17 above 450 knots from a realism perspective).  It seems like mostly large fighters in AI hands get the most benefits, but I've got a lot more testing to do.

[+EricJ 3,931]

I don't think it matters (but a good idea) as usually I look at the behavior while trying to shoot it down.  And given it was only one test against the Su-27 I can't say it's solid for sure but if its in the context of the DACT then it applies to this topic.

[Kyot54 2]

See, Holidays. Things picked back up nicely today.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Kyot54

[+EricJ 3,931]

Nah a few posts isn't considered "reg'lar" business but it's a start

 

I'll admit I've been distracted with DCS (learning the A-10C) as well as A3 projects but I think I'll do another test of the modded Su-27 and see if I can get it to actually not be a target like it was before though.

Edited December 2, 2014 by EricJ

[saisran 84]

Well, it finally happened: the AI flying an F-14B got the better of me in an A-4F Super Fox.  The fight took a while, about 8 minutes from the merge, but I only ever got one snap shot on the F-14.  The AI managed to get shots on me on four occasions, including several bursts on the third before finally getting a kill on the fourth.  I think this is the first time I've lost to an AI piloted F-14 in a gunfight flying the A-4F.  The big factor I feel is the limiter on the AI jet.  I noticed like before that the AI was keeping in the 300-380KIAS range instead of 200-280, which allowed it to keep up sustained turns at higher "g" and tighter radius than I could do in the A-4F, vice burning all of its energy and becoming a sitting duck, and that's also what happened in this fight.  Fight got slow a few times and I actually departed the Scooter 3 times, but quickly recovered with rudder.  Seems like the limiter is a good fix for the AI F-14's survivability.  Still need to test other aircraft.

 

Dear Caesar,

 

Mind sharing the data.ini? :)

 

Busy playing NBA 2k15 with my cousins and other stuff but will try to get a DACT going this weekend.

Edited December 4, 2014 by saisran

[Caesar 305]

Certainly can.

 

These are the .ini's.  Make a copy of your F-14B_96 folder and rename it "F-14B_96_AI" and swap out the .ini's with these.  To save space, I only copied one of the skins into the AI F-14's folder. 

 

F-14B_96_AI.7z

[saisran 84]

Certainly can.

 

These are the .ini's.  Make a copy of your F-14B_96 folder and rename it "F-14B_96_AI" and swap out the .ini's with these.  To save space, I only copied one of the skins into the AI F-14's folder. 

 

F-14B_96_AI.7z

 

Thanks a bunch! cant wait for the weekend.

[cougar_1979 37]

Sorry to have been away for so long, but what for most people is holiday season, for me are the 2 most busy months of  the year. Up until mid january, i will be hard pressed to fly, let alone post. However here are two vids i finally got to upload this evening. As i mentioned, i decided to fly the "adversaries" this time, against the F-14A (74). I would really like to see what a g-limiter could do the TF30 powered cats when in AI hands.

These two bouts are with unmodded birds though.

Hop 1; Me in a "Super" Skyhawk, clean, guns only. Starting level at angels 15, neutral merge at 5nm. Being in a plane with no A-A radar, the video starts only after i acquired a visual on the bandit in external view. In later flight i managed to develop my visual acquisition skills better but i decided to upload the first one. I have read that the adversary A4's were made lighter and up-engined to make them better performers. If so, i found it really hard to notice. Maybe i should one day take them against stock A4. The Tomcat outperforms me in every way, except maybe extremely slow, tight turns. But flying the A4 against F-5's and F-14A's made me destinguish between tight and hard turning. The A4 may be the former, but certainly not the latter. You could turn inside  virtually everything, but maintaining a turn for any prolonged period of time, as well the turn rate it self is not spectacular. I am still learning the AC, but my respect for the NAVY instructors just went up exponentially. If they could fight and humble naval aviators flying Tomcats and Hornets in these nimble but underpowered craft, they must have been woth their weight in platinum. In the first minute of this fight i try to both conserve my energy and get into a better position, but it soon becomes evident i do not have the skills or power to do so. The F-14 is always out of my nose cone. Going into the vertical is not just useless, but it brings the bandit right on my 6. Almost panicking and completely without inspiration i perform a tightest possible immelman, my airspeed dropping to 100KIAS. Fortunately for me the A4 doesn't stall easily. On my pullout i find the F-14 in my sights. Without missiles i can't do much though. Acquiring a nose one and staying on the 6 of a plane that sustains a turn better then you in all regimes are two diferent things. I try to get a high deflection shot, but without a lead computing gunsight it's a full's errant at this point. I unload, recover some energy (those upgraded engines do pay off i guess) and go after him again. Another snap shot oportunity, but i decide to conserve the ammo. I start to realise my chance for an early victory has passed and considering my options i remember the one thing you should never ever do when flying large planes that sustain their turns well........ under no circumstances go one circle, nose to nose with a small nimble guns weilding bandits! So i do just that, i reverse my turn. The F-14 manages to match my nose pointing, but i repeat the process. On my second reversal i tighten my turn even more and voila! I  get a nose on first. I send off a few bursts and one of them connects, but the F-14 is still flying. I set up for another reversal and turn into him. But something must be wrong, he is floating ahead. That burst must have cost him some maneuvering devices. I pull some lead and send him burning into the ocean.

Hop 2. This time i fly the F-5A, same conditions as before. We merge from neutral as he sends some tracers my way. The diference in performance is overwhealming. The F-5 maybe have been a nimble and maneuverable opponent in its own right, but the power available when comapred to the A4 brings it into a league of its own. This plane wants to be flown fast, fast as in low to mid 400's. And it sustains it's G's well into that region. Maybe even too well. When going up against the AI, the adversary would put it in continous 7-8G turn until you black out trying to stay with him. So i go into a left hand turn after him, trying to bring him on my nose. Out turn starts getting a bit oblique until i get completely inverted. This is a rare treat for me, as i love fighting in the vertical, but the AI is so reluctant on pushing it. We enter a short series of displacement rolls that end up with him right under my nose. By this time he has bleed him self dry and is starting a downward spiral to maintain his turn rate. The ocean is near though, there won't be much diving space. I have kept my energy however, and i start trading knots for angles. He reverses his turn and goes for guns defense. I try several bursts but i fail to hit him. Not so much because of his evasive manuvers, but because the gunsight seams a bit off and i can't exaclty put my finger by how much or in which direction. I try both excess and lack of lead and i still can hit him. So i decide to pull extra lead and spray an entire arc across him. It works........shamless of me, but it works.... Splash Tomcat #2. 

Long story short, the F-5 is a powerful plane, at least in this incarnation. In AI hands and in human hands as well. It feels like a Bug, but not as refined. My only problem is the gunsight, which i may need to get used to. The A4 is a diferent story. I will have to learn much more to master it.

[saisran 84]

Cheers Caesar! Love what you did with the AI F-14. Thanks!

 

This post is long overdue. I got two missions against Caesars Tomcat. First was on the Viper Team F-16C and the 2nd was with the stock F-16A/Netz as usual guns only.

 

F-16C vs F-14B AI

 

F-16A vs F-14B AI

 

As usual its guns only. In the first outing i tried to keep the tomcat in sight at all times while trying to figure out how the the new set up matches with the US premiere dog fighter. Since i was on a viper the only course of action is to go round in circle. Wow! Great job here Caesar! What a difference. as opposed to being dragged into a slow energy fight the AI managed to maintain its speed around most of the iteration. It manages to maintain an average turn speed in the region of 300+ to -400 which allowed it to turn pretty well with the viper. Even though i was able to maintain status quo it wasn't as easy as holding stick and throttle all the way and i had to managed my throttle settings to maintain my position. in between the region of 350 and the region of 450 Kias the Tomcat managed to match and sometimes out perform the Viper. The odd thing was i was able to get an advantage by going at speed opposite the tomcat. When the tomcat raises its speed it was better to throttle down and throttle up when he goes below 300. In the end i was able to force the tomcat below 300 Kias but instead of slowing down to below 200 Kias and porpoising the AI performed a couple of well managed horizontal scissors. I got sucked in and made a terrible blunder. Luckily the Viper managed to save me from myself.

 

At around the Five minute mark I decided to end the fight however i feel that the cross hairs for this plane is two small. and with my screen being 6 ft away it was hard to tell if i had a good lead which lead to a very curious ending which i would like to know your thoughts about. 

 

I was following it through a left hand turn and i felt i had a good enough firing solution so i fired. No visible contact was made and the F-14 flew on straighten out and continued to do a barrel roll which i believed was an attempt to make me overshoot. I closed in and realized that he was doing it inverted. I watched for a while as he continued to roll and lose altitude. He eventually hit the water. What happened to him puzzles me. Is the AI capable of blacking out? Did a round managed to damage the cockpit which killed the pilot? Running out of gas is a possibility but high improbable as i was on a viper which as 1/4 of his overall fuel load.

 

2nd fight was on the Stock viper. It has a good enough gun sight. I was trying to be aggressive  and end the fight as fast as possible but the stock viper's performance is very different fron the viper team's jet. you can fly the F-16C with the throttle alone while on the F-16A you have to be on the burners constantly to be able to keep up with the F-14. Just a one circle series. some bad gunnery and the victory at around 2 mins.

 

Last words. The Vipers Team's F16C are a joy to fly the only gripe i have is the crosshair which i believe is a true to life representation so that's not their fault. While it handles like a dream its not an uber FM like the ones on the Rafale and the Glorious Gripen. And Caesars FM mod was just a treat. I never liked going 1v1 guns only against the Tomcat as it is really under utilized by the AI but the way Caesar's Cat managed its speed and the horizontal Scissors made flying against it a "feel good" experience. It was a good feeling and i'm very grateful. Thanks!

[cougar_1979 37]

Good flying man, and once again i'm impressed with the way the AI handled that cat!

As for the gunsight, yeah i agree. I have the same problem with the "tube" sight in this sim, even though it was the first gunsight i learned how to use in the Viper, and to this day is the one i fall back to when things get nasty. The problem is, that is not how that sight is supposed to operate. The "tube" or the "funnel" needs to show the computed trajectory of the gun fire, superimposed over fixed area of space roughly equal to an F-15 wingspan. Thus as you change your energy state and pull or unload g's, the funnel is supposed to change with it. In level flight it's supposed to be asymptoticly flat near the ends, and slowly dropping down near the middle. During high gees, the middle section is supposed to elongate and stratch like a rubber band in the direction opposite to your lift vector, dragging the sides with it. The way you aim it, is you try to place the enemy's wing span inside the this funnel (matching for AC wingspan, an eagle should touch the lines I.E.) and place the crosshair over the target. However the lines are too rigid and inert in this version, especially during rolling maneuvers, so you can't count on them to give you precise bandit orientation. To make things worse, the crosshair doesn't seam to calculate any lead at all, making the entire gunsight system almost unusable.

If i have permition, i can record and post a video of how this gunsight works in Falcon, just for illustration and comparisson.
Cheers and good flying!

[Caesar 305]

Saisran,

 

Good flying.  Glad to see the limiter's got the F-14 able to survive for more than 30 seconds in a close-in fight.  The credit for that isn't mine, though, it's Fubar512 who cooked up that magnificent little .ini code for the F-16.  I just lowered the "g" and applied it to another aircraft like EricJ did to the Super Bug (albeit for a different reason).  I'm thinking in the next F-14 Super Pack update I'd like to include "AI" entries, since I'm leery of limiting player F-14's for two reasons: (1) the aircraft had no limiters, hard or soft, in any iteration including with DFCS, and (2), players can exploit a high-g pull or two much better than the AI, which does it far too quickly.  BUT!  That's another discussion to be had with the team.  In terms of DACT, it's nice to see a little more challenge out of the AI piloted F-14.

[+Crusader 2,050]

Its easy to exchange the faux-funnel for a good old LCOS...

I've thought about a small avionics update for the Viper pack, adding wpn counters where appropriate and

waypoint steering ..

But won thappen anytime soon, too much on the plate atm

 

BTW

If someone of the permanent DACTers here is interested in some DACT with the T-45A Goshawk with my new T-45C avionics for it..

PM me

 

~

[saisran 84]

Its easy to exchange the faux-funnel for a good old LCOS...

I've thought about a small avionics update for the Viper pack, adding wpn counters where appropriate and

waypoint steering ..

But won thappen anytime soon, too much on the plate atm

 

BTW

If someone of the permanent DACTers here is interested in some DACT with the T-45A Goshawk with my new T-45C avionics for it..

PM me

 

~

I'm always willing to try something new. :)

[Caesar 305]

Got some preliminary findings from flying the T-45.  Unfortunately, no photos.

 

I flew twice against a Su-15 armed with four missiles and the gun pods and once against an AI-Limited F-14B.  The T-45 proved to be a lot more capable that I thought it would be, and I guess I should have figured it'd be a good handling aircraft being a fleet trainer.

 

Most basically, the T-45 had a very easy time out-turning the Su-15, but its lack of afterburner made it such that I could almost never capitalize on my easily won position.  In the first fight, I closed the gap with the Su-15, and flew well under it to deny it a missile shot at the merge.  Of note, the T-45's small size and lack of radar allowed me to get real close to the Su-15 before it started engaging.  What happened was that I wound up on the Su's tail in a single turn, and then this thing ran.  And it ran.  And it kept running.  And holy, geez, he's running for home!  I never caught it.  The engagement pretty much turned into a blow through once I got on the Flagon's tail.

 

Second fight was almost the same thing, but rather than keeping my nose pointed at the Flagon, I turned, and actually went 180 degrees from the Su-15.  This time, he tried to turn back to engage.  I waited until his nose was about 90 degrees off and pulled into him.  He still didn't have enough time for a missile shot and we passed again nose to nose, the Flagon on high and myself pointing up.  This turned into my favor, because I put a harsh turn on the Goshawk into the Flagon, and with gravity aiding me, actually caught up to the Flagon, who was now pulling up to fight gravity.  But!  With those afterburners, I only had a small window.  Getting lined up, and knowing the Flagon was getting away, I put a set of 20mm in his direction.  Missed, adjusted fire.  I believe it was the third burst that caught part of the Flagon, knocking out the left engine, rudder, and a left flap.  By now, I had pretty much lost him.  I fired in a high arc and none of the bullets caught him.  He again ran, not turning back to engage this time, even when I pulled away.

 

So, against an interceptor, the Goshawk can easily get inside of the turn, but good luck catching the guy if he lights the cans!

 

Going up against the F-14B with the 7.33g limiter was significantly more difficult.  I did not win this fight.  We merged, and knowing I didn't have an afterburner, I went for a turning fight, rather than vertical.  Problem is that at high altitudes, the Goshawk doesn't sustain turns as well as a fighter, and the F-14 was getting behind my 3/9 line.  I recall getting the nose low and pulling harder, which evened out the fight temporarily, but not for long, since it took energy and I didn't have a good position against the F-14.  Tried to unload and get a bit of smack to do something with, but this just allowed the F-14 to get closer to my six o'clock and from here it was just a matter of time.  Turned, jinked, reversed, got hit, punched out.

 

I'll have to try the T-45 against some of the earlier generation fighters and generally get more familiar with it, but my takeaways so far are that it:

 

1. Can pull a good instantaneous turn

2. Can out-turn a smaller winged interceptor very easily

3. Has decent slow-speed characteristics

4. Cannot accelerate with an enemy fighter or interceptor that has afterburner

5. Cannot sustain a turn at moderate to high altitudes against a fighter

 

Also, Crusader's beta T-45C avionics made it a hell of a lot easier!  

[saisran 84]

Did a test run on the T-45 with Crusaders avionics. Guess i didn't pay attention to his PM as i ended up taking an aden gunpod along.I also couldn't make a proper report. So just a preview for now.  I flew it against an F-15 Baz and made the mistake of going slow  and going low early. As Caesar did i also find the lack of grunt to be a bit troublesome as i can't get high enough and fast enough to be able to gain energy against the baz so i placed the fight in an elongated two circles. With the Baz going at above 300 Kias and the T-45 around 280 Kias. In the end the My plane's small size and the combination of crusader's 20mm training rounds and the aden's 30MM granted me the win as on the 5th head on pass we were both on a good position and fired simultaneously the 20+30 combination shredding the Baz as he missed all his shots. After that it was a bonkers of a landing where i landed too hard on the nose gear. :)

 

 

 

It seems that there is a BAE Hawk with a different pit. 

[Caesar 305]

Saisran,

 

Great job coming out on top of that one!  Just to let you know, I have the same problem with my Goshawks - the nose wheel goes into the ground, so I had to do all my fights starting from in the air.  Can't remember how to fix that...

[Caesar 305]

Also, If folks are interested, I'm still working on an AI F-14B data.ini testbed.  This one has auto-flaps to help the AI F-14 in the slow fight.  I didn't really have trouble flying my own F-14 against it, but figured, if I give the AI the flaps, it'll have a bit more cornering advantage at slow speed.  This did so, but I do fear that the AI might wind up slowing down too much again.  Use this .ini in your F-14B_96_AI if you want to test it.

 

F-14B_DATA.7z

[saisran 84]

Saisran,

 

Great job coming out on top of that one!  Just to let you know, I have the same problem with my Goshawks - the nose wheel goes into the ground, so I had to do all my fights starting from in the air.  Can't remember how to fix that...

 

Thanks for the info. Good to know it wasn't just me blundering it. There's another Goshawks available with the A-4 pit. That one doesn't go into the ground. Guess it'll be easy to switch Crusaders pit into that. 

 

P.S. Having the AI drop flaps will be a great visual add on even if it doesn't help them that much. Thanks.

[+Crusader 2,050]

I do alot of Mirage F1 flying lately, with updated FM which has manual flaps.

And the AI ac are using the manual flaps when getting real slow.

 

Re. T-45A nosewheel.. i dont have that problem ...

[saisran 84]

Finally able to DACT.

 

I placed Crusaders avionics on this model which i think is an updated version and the issue with the landing gear is now gone.

 

First bout was against the Mig-29A. The mig began the merge low and climb ed up to meet me at around 7K Ft. Took a hard left turn, fighting blackouts as i got into a more advantageous position than the AI which began the mandatory one circle fight. Being a nimble little jet the goshawk was able to match the fulcrums turn at 400KIAS the problem with this is the consistent blackouts. I let the goshawk slow down under 400KIAS for better management. 350Kias seems like a general sweet spot for most birds and the goshawk turns really at this region. The AI countered by ignoring blackout and accelerated to 450Kias which i countered by placing the goshawk nose low to increase my energy and shorten my radius. Though there's no radar lock i thought i got a good estimate and took a shot which missed. The fulcrum then straighten out and reversed direction. I got to eager trying to get lead and i bled out my energy for a shot which didn't connect. Since trying to gain energy on the Goshawk takes forever i decided to press on with the offensive and went down to 250 region where i can deploy flaps. This enables me to get on  his six and he responded by going vertical  and pulled inverted towards me. I took another shot which also misses as he passed by over head. I leveled my wings belly up and pulled to complete the loop exited at 500ft and found the fulcrum going back into another half loop. He wasn't able to threaten me at the merge but i was able to get a shot off which also missed. Got fairly excited and went for a suicidal move by doing a Split S just starting from under 2500 ft. level out at around 400ft but having the altitude indicator turn red is a bit scary. he passed me on my right on the merge. I was already very low and doesn't really have the energy to climb without loosing the offensive. I took a left hand turn and decied to try my best in sustaining what little energy i have on the turn. Two passes and i was able to take part of the left wing out and maybe do some damage on the engine or fuel line. The fulcrum accelerated away from the battle i followed him for a bout 20 miles and watched him hit the ground to confirm the kill.

 

you might want to skip to about 5 mins on the vid to get to the good stuff.

 

[saisran 84]

2nd hop was against the F-14B AI (limiter and auto flaps.)

 

This one was a lot more scary than hitting the ground. The F-14B with the limiter has really turned into a fun opponent.

 

Got into a left hand one circle where the F-14B just simply negates all my attempt to get the advantage at all speeds.  From above 350 to well under 300Kias the tomcat demands a long fight if i was going to stick with it. 350Kias region is tomcat territory. I figured that the only way to go on this fight is to force a nose on nose scenario where my plane's smaller size can be an advantage. Went really slow for a tighter radius to get our plane to pass at a shorter distance. This engaged the Turn tight - head on shot - extend - turn tight - head on shot routine of the AI. Now, while the fulcrum wasn't able able to get any shot off. The tomcat managed to get nose on almost all the time. The fight was then a race against time as to who can hit the other plane first. Lucky for me that  even as the tomcat is getting off first it was my rounds that managed to hit first. Hes a a very big target up close after all. 

 

[saisran 84]

Is this because its December or did everyone went on a mission and left me behind?